By: RMAllnutt
- 2nd May 2012 at 18:11Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You will never see one fly as the engine has now been discredited despite successful development afterwards.
I disagree with that being the reason a Typhoon might never fly. Ignoring the lack of wings available for restoration, there simply aren't enough rebuildable Sabres around. You can probably count them on one hand. That fact, and the very limited amount of hands on experience available to today's engine rebuild shops is the key problem in seeing a Typhoon, or Tempest V back in the air. Still, it may happen one day, but the costs will be astronomical!
By: CeBro
- 2nd May 2012 at 18:18Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Just to remind you all.
The rear fuselage we have on display at our museum is on loan from a museum at Twente Air Force Base that went belly up years ago. We just provided much needed space to house the privately owned collection.
The museum I work for as a volunteen doesn't own it.
Just to set the record straight.
The owners have had some interested parties among which some well known names. And it was said it was sold and would soon be moving.
Cees
By: GrahamF
- 2nd May 2012 at 18:53Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Just to remind you all.
The rear fuselage we have on display at our museum is on loan from a museum at Twente Air Force Base that went belly up years ago. We just provided much needed space to house the privately owned collection.
The museum I work for as a volunteen doesn't own it.
Just to set the record straight.
The owners have had some interested parties among which some well known names. And it was said it was sold and would soon be moving.
Cees
How complete is this section? wasn't it in use as some sort of outside shower cubicle?!
By: Flat 12x2
- 2nd May 2012 at 21:19Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I disagree with that being the reason a Typhoon might never fly. Ignoring the lack of wings available for restoration, there simply aren't enough rebuildable Sabres around. You can probably count them on one hand. That fact, and the very limited amount of hands on experience available to today's engine rebuild shops is the key problem in seeing a Typhoon, or Tempest V back in the air. Still, it may happen one day, but the costs will be astronomical!
Cheers,
Richard
I'm not sure it is the lack of engines, Kermit had two delivered to Ricardo in Shoreham for rebuilding back to airworthy standard. I was told by an ex Ricardo employee that the quote was for £1,000,000 :eek: so maybe just the cost alone for the engines will be the stumbling block to any Sabre ever flying again.
By: TempestNut
- 2nd May 2012 at 23:52Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
With today's machine tools and excellent manufacturing processes getting a Sabre working is not a technical issue. It is more one of opportunity. The much missed Paul Morgan was someone in the right industry to help with project such as this. An organisation such as Ricardo may have the skill, but unlike their founder, they have very little intrinsic interest in a project such as restoring a Sabre and the prices we see quoted, real or otherwise, I suspect reflect this.
Even items such as blocks, cranks, cams and con rods are relatively easy to reproduce at a reasonable price in small numbers with today's modern tools and methods. Perhaps will-power is another ingredient needed to realize one of these projects, for most of the effort would necessarily need to be spent with the CAA to ensure that the finished product would be fit for purpose.
On the matter of reliability, much rot gets repeated about how bad the Sabre was. The reality is that it was no worse that any other new engine in the early stages of its development. Many issues were related to the quality of the workmanship within the new shadow factory in Liverpool built to manufacture the engine, and other issues arose due to poor training of service personnel. None of this was due to a design fault. And there was the small matter of Bristol not willing to help with manufacture of the sleeves. This is stuff you couldn't make up given that the outcome of the war was far from certain.
In the days following D day when the squadrons used the dusty temporary landing fields dust was a major issue. Given the RAF's experience in the Western desert, that this was not anticipated was just another in a long list of MOD failures that often defy words.
What is not in doubt is that the Sabre, a no compromise fighter engine, was one of the engineering wonders of WWII. 3000hp from just 36 liters on 150 grade fuel and 3500 with ADI was outstanding. And post war a production Sabre was run at 4000 hp, numbers unequaled by any other production Piston engine. Compared to the woes of the Wright R3350 in the B29 the Sabre was a trouble free engine.
By: Sutts
- 3rd May 2012 at 10:51Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
With today's machine tools and excellent manufacturing processes getting a Sabre working is not a technical issue. It is more one of opportunity. The much missed Paul Morgan was someone in the right industry to help with project such as this. An organisation such as Ricardo may have the skill, but unlike their founder, they have very little intrinsic interest in a project such as restoring a Sabre and the prices we see quoted, real or otherwise, I suspect reflect this.
Even items such as blocks, cranks, cams and con rods are relatively easy to reproduce at a reasonable price in small numbers with today's modern tools and methods. Perhaps will-power is another ingredient needed to realize one of these projects, for most of the effort would necessarily need to be spent with the CAA to ensure that the finished product would be fit for purpose.
On the matter of reliability, much rot gets repeated about how bad the Sabre was. The reality is that it was no worse that any other new engine in the early stages of its development. Many issues were related to the quality of the workmanship within the new shadow factory in Liverpool built to manufacture the engine, and other issues arose due to poor training of service personnel. None of this was due to a design fault. And there was the small matter of Bristol not willing to help with manufacture of the sleeves. This is stuff you couldn't make up given that the outcome of the war was far from certain.
In the days following D day when the squadrons used the dusty temporary landing fields dust was a major issue. Given the RAF's experience in the Western desert, that this was not anticipated was just another in a long list of MOD failures that often defy words.
What is not in doubt is that the Sabre, a no compromise fighter engine, was one of the engineering wonders of WWII. 3000hp from just 36 liters on 150 grade fuel and 3500 with ADI was outstanding. And post war a production Sabre was run at 4000 hp, numbers unequaled by any other production Piston engine. Compared to the woes of the Wright R3350 in the B29 the Sabre was a trouble free engine.
+1 Great post
I think a live sabre would be a real crowd puller. For those who aren't familiar with the ghostly howl of the mighty sabre, just listen to this.
By: D1566
- 3rd May 2012 at 11:14Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In the days following D day when the squadrons used the dusty temporary landing fields dust was a major issue. Given the RAF's experience in the Western desert, that this was not anticipated was just another in a long list of MOD failures that often defy words.
I think it was the dust itself that was not anticipated rather than any problems stemming from it ...
By: TempestV
- 3rd May 2012 at 15:18Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
..... But getting back to a point made earlier, there ARE enough parts around to substantially reassemble a second static Typhoon, if all the people owning parts would pool their resources together.
Yes, wings are missing, but to make a reproduction set for static use would hardly break the bank! One could approach the RAFM to measure theirs.
By: TempestNut
- 3rd May 2012 at 16:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think it was the dust itself that was not anticipated rather than any problems stemming from it ...
I think there is a large element of truth there, but as someone who has worked with large reciprocating engines most of my working life, I know dust does not have to be visible to be damaging, given the volumes sucked into the engine. The Spitfire by the time of D Day was being produced with a filter for all theatres of operations, or at least the housing was in place. Its even more puzzling given a Typhoon or 2 were shipped to Egypt for tropical trials.
By: Jayce
- 3rd May 2012 at 16:25Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think there is a large element of truth there, but as someone who has worked with large reciprocating engines most of my working life, I know dust does not have to be visible to be damaging, given the volumes sucked into the engine. The Spitfire by the time of D Day was being produced with a filter for all theatres of operations, or at least the housing was in place. Its even more puzzling given a Typhoon or 2 were shipped to Egypt for tropical trials.
Never underestimate the ability of the human mind to overlook the bleeding obvious...
By: CeBro
- 3rd May 2012 at 18:29Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This thread is about Typhoon parts. If it's development is to be discussed better start a new thread.
Regarding wings, what is left, apart from MN235. Are there substantial chunks of wing that survived? IIRC Phil Earthy had or has a collection of Typhoon bits that could be the base of a substantial reconstruction.
It is nice that many typhoon cockpit sections have survived but the other bits are important too.
By: Jayce
- 3rd May 2012 at 18:56Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As I mentioned earlier, I've heard rumors of some substantial wing components in France but never heard any details or location mentioned in connection.
Let me reformat this...
Major Projects:
1) JR505; Brian Barnes, Coventry
2) 'Michelle'; Jet Age Museum, Gloucester
3) JP843; Roger Marley, Market Drayton.
Other: EJ922; ex-Peter Smith R7708; ex-Peter Smith RB396; The rear fuselage Cees has been talking about.
Duxford Cockpit section.
Sabers are a bit thin on the ground too and the only ones in restorable condition I'm aware of are Kermit's and the ones in the Smithsonian and the Science Museum.
By: GrahamF
- 4th May 2012 at 13:23Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thinking about the wings, none are likely to turn up, so what about building some with a sub-structure of wood and then clad in aluminium? as has been done before on some projects, with its relatively straight lines it wouldn't be too complex, and murphys law the real things will turn up!
By: CeBro
- 4th May 2012 at 13:25Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
[QUOTE=Jayce;1885758]As I mentioned earlier, I've heard rumors of some substantial wing components in France but never heard any details or location mentioned in connection.
Let me reformat this...
Other: BR369; The rear fuselage Cees has been talking about.
By: GrahamF
- 4th May 2012 at 14:01Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
[QUOTE=CeBro;1886031]
As I mentioned earlier, I've heard rumors of some substantial wing components in France but never heard any details or location mentioned in connection.
Let me reformat this...
Other: BR369; The rear fuselage Cees has been talking about.
Actually it is RB396
cees
Any photos of this? and is it complete? I have only seen one not very clear picture of this in a magazine.
By: Jayce
- 4th May 2012 at 15:15Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As I mentioned earlier, I've heard rumors of some substantial wing components in France but never heard any details or location mentioned in connection.
Let me reformat this...
Other: BR369; The rear fuselage Cees has been talking about.
Actually it is RB396
cees
D'oh! I'm not dyslexic AFAIK... but maybe I should get myself tested....
Posts: 189
By: Cranswick - 2nd May 2012 at 17:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
One Typhoon, R7639, was delivered to Rolls Royce for trials with a Griffon but the conversion was never completed.
Posts: 411
By: RMAllnutt - 2nd May 2012 at 18:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I disagree with that being the reason a Typhoon might never fly. Ignoring the lack of wings available for restoration, there simply aren't enough rebuildable Sabres around. You can probably count them on one hand. That fact, and the very limited amount of hands on experience available to today's engine rebuild shops is the key problem in seeing a Typhoon, or Tempest V back in the air. Still, it may happen one day, but the costs will be astronomical!
Cheers,
Richard
Posts: 2,176
By: CeBro - 2nd May 2012 at 18:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Just to remind you all.
The rear fuselage we have on display at our museum is on loan from a museum at Twente Air Force Base that went belly up years ago. We just provided much needed space to house the privately owned collection.
The museum I work for as a volunteen doesn't own it.
Just to set the record straight.
The owners have had some interested parties among which some well known names. And it was said it was sold and would soon be moving.
Cees
Posts: 439
By: GrahamF - 2nd May 2012 at 18:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
How complete is this section? wasn't it in use as some sort of outside shower cubicle?!
Posts: 504
By: Flat 12x2 - 2nd May 2012 at 21:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm not sure it is the lack of engines, Kermit had two delivered to Ricardo in Shoreham for rebuilding back to airworthy standard. I was told by an ex Ricardo employee that the quote was for £1,000,000 :eek: so maybe just the cost alone for the engines will be the stumbling block to any Sabre ever flying again.
Posts: 474
By: TempestNut - 2nd May 2012 at 23:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
With today's machine tools and excellent manufacturing processes getting a Sabre working is not a technical issue. It is more one of opportunity. The much missed Paul Morgan was someone in the right industry to help with project such as this. An organisation such as Ricardo may have the skill, but unlike their founder, they have very little intrinsic interest in a project such as restoring a Sabre and the prices we see quoted, real or otherwise, I suspect reflect this.
Even items such as blocks, cranks, cams and con rods are relatively easy to reproduce at a reasonable price in small numbers with today's modern tools and methods. Perhaps will-power is another ingredient needed to realize one of these projects, for most of the effort would necessarily need to be spent with the CAA to ensure that the finished product would be fit for purpose.
On the matter of reliability, much rot gets repeated about how bad the Sabre was. The reality is that it was no worse that any other new engine in the early stages of its development. Many issues were related to the quality of the workmanship within the new shadow factory in Liverpool built to manufacture the engine, and other issues arose due to poor training of service personnel. None of this was due to a design fault. And there was the small matter of Bristol not willing to help with manufacture of the sleeves. This is stuff you couldn't make up given that the outcome of the war was far from certain.
In the days following D day when the squadrons used the dusty temporary landing fields dust was a major issue. Given the RAF's experience in the Western desert, that this was not anticipated was just another in a long list of MOD failures that often defy words.
What is not in doubt is that the Sabre, a no compromise fighter engine, was one of the engineering wonders of WWII. 3000hp from just 36 liters on 150 grade fuel and 3500 with ADI was outstanding. And post war a production Sabre was run at 4000 hp, numbers unequaled by any other production Piston engine. Compared to the woes of the Wright R3350 in the B29 the Sabre was a trouble free engine.
Posts: 28
By: Sutts - 3rd May 2012 at 10:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
+1 Great post
I think a live sabre would be a real crowd puller. For those who aren't familiar with the ghostly howl of the mighty sabre, just listen to this.
http://www.hawkertempest.se/Sounds.htm
Posts: 2,024
By: D1566 - 3rd May 2012 at 11:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think it was the dust itself that was not anticipated rather than any problems stemming from it ...
Posts: 1,494
By: TempestV - 3rd May 2012 at 15:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
..... But getting back to a point made earlier, there ARE enough parts around to substantially reassemble a second static Typhoon, if all the people owning parts would pool their resources together.
Yes, wings are missing, but to make a reproduction set for static use would hardly break the bank! One could approach the RAFM to measure theirs.
Posts: 474
By: TempestNut - 3rd May 2012 at 16:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think there is a large element of truth there, but as someone who has worked with large reciprocating engines most of my working life, I know dust does not have to be visible to be damaging, given the volumes sucked into the engine. The Spitfire by the time of D Day was being produced with a filter for all theatres of operations, or at least the housing was in place. Its even more puzzling given a Typhoon or 2 were shipped to Egypt for tropical trials.
Posts: 485
By: Jayce - 3rd May 2012 at 16:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Never underestimate the ability of the human mind to overlook the bleeding obvious...
Posts: 2,176
By: CeBro - 3rd May 2012 at 18:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This thread is about Typhoon parts. If it's development is to be discussed better start a new thread.
Regarding wings, what is left, apart from MN235. Are there substantial chunks of wing that survived? IIRC Phil Earthy had or has a collection of Typhoon bits that could be the base of a substantial reconstruction.
It is nice that many typhoon cockpit sections have survived but the other bits are important too.
Any info?
Cees
Posts: 152
By: SimonDav - 3rd May 2012 at 18:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Is there a list of surviving cockpit sections, and their whereabouts and owners with identities if possible?
Posts: 485
By: Jayce - 3rd May 2012 at 18:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As I mentioned earlier, I've heard rumors of some substantial wing components in France but never heard any details or location mentioned in connection.
Let me reformat this...
Major Projects:
1) JR505; Brian Barnes, Coventry
2) 'Michelle'; Jet Age Museum, Gloucester
3) JP843; Roger Marley, Market Drayton.
Other:
EJ922; ex-Peter Smith
R7708; ex-Peter Smith
RB396; The rear fuselage Cees has been talking about.
Duxford Cockpit section.
Sabers are a bit thin on the ground too and the only ones in restorable condition I'm aware of are Kermit's and the ones in the Smithsonian and the Science Museum.
Posts: 1,101
By: sopwith.7f1 - 4th May 2012 at 10:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
ALL I NEED NOW IS A DATAPLATE :diablo::diablo:.
Bob T.
Posts: 439
By: GrahamF - 4th May 2012 at 13:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thinking about the wings, none are likely to turn up, so what about building some with a sub-structure of wood and then clad in aluminium? as has been done before on some projects, with its relatively straight lines it wouldn't be too complex, and murphys law the real things will turn up!
Posts: 2,176
By: CeBro - 4th May 2012 at 13:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
[QUOTE=Jayce;1885758]As I mentioned earlier, I've heard rumors of some substantial wing components in France but never heard any details or location mentioned in connection.
Let me reformat this...
Other:
BR369; The rear fuselage Cees has been talking about.
Actually it is RB396
cees
Posts: 439
By: GrahamF - 4th May 2012 at 14:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
[QUOTE=CeBro;1886031]
Any photos of this? and is it complete? I have only seen one not very clear picture of this in a magazine.
Posts: 485
By: Jayce - 4th May 2012 at 15:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
D'oh! I'm not dyslexic AFAIK... but maybe I should get myself tested....
Posts: 485
By: Jayce - 4th May 2012 at 15:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Pic courtesy Roger Soupart.