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By: - 8th September 2006 at 06:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Adrian FRAZIER allready has a thread, anyway one of the mods will merge the two.
By: - 19th September 2006 at 15:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It is nothing special. With Thrust Vector Control it would be very unusual if it could not do it.
But the point is:
Is it able to do this maneuver with service aircraft, not only on tests ?
Remember that F-14 did the Cobra maneuver in tests, to about 80 degrees Alpha. The F-18 also. But the point is that it should be done in service, and in airshows.
Note also that MiG-29 and SU-27 do this maneuver without TVC.
By: - 19th September 2006 at 15:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Note also that MiG-29 and SU-27 do this maneuver without TVC.
So? The YF-17 did it first, and it did do it in airshows. Next.
By: - 19th September 2006 at 15:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It is nothing special. With Thrust Vector Control it would be very unusual if it could not do it.But the point is:
Is it able to do this maneuver with service aircraft, not only on tests ?
Firebar, that was at an airshow in New Jersey with a production Langley jet.
Before, you were saying that it couldn't pass 60 degrees alpha and now you're saying that it would be unusual if it couldn't? :rolleyes:
By: - 19th September 2006 at 15:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So? The YF-17 did it first, and it did do it in airshows. Next.
wow, thats news for me! Any youtube or google stuff that u might have? Would love to see it in action!
By: - 19th September 2006 at 15:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It was performed on the airshow circuit in the late 1970's after the F-16 won the LWF competition and the YF-17 was relegated to other tasks. Haven't found a video online yet.
By: - 20th September 2006 at 15:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
But the point is:
Is it able to do this maneuver with service aircraft, not only on tests ?Remember that F-14 did the Cobra maneuver in tests, to about 80 degrees Alpha. The F-18 also. But the point is that it should be done in service, and in airshows.
I remember that you were claiming 60 degrees max AOA for the raptor about a year back . Go to fencesheck forums and you can communicate with the pilot who performed the RAPTOR COBRA and he likes to take it to about 25 degrees past right angle and hang in there before bringing the nose back . For that particular performance he flew out of langley with a fuel load and 8 A2A missiles , flew subsonic ( airspace limitations) , reached NJ , performed a routine while his wingman did some real neet high speed low alt. flyby's which were LLLLOOOOUUUDDD according to people there and both flew back to langley . Now if that jet isnt in combat condition then i dont know what else . These are operational jets , in an operational squadron flying operational loads , infact DOZER ( the pilot) says that he prefers this way rather then using a configuration that isnt combat practical. Read dozers remarks posted by myself and Frazier in the various threads related to this news.
By: - 20th September 2006 at 18:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This is must be a hoax. We all know only Russia designs can do the cobra!
Sauron
By: - 21st September 2006 at 02:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It was performed on the airshow circuit in the late 1970's after the F-16 won the LWF competition and the YF-17 was relegated to other tasks. Haven't found a video online yet.
Is that the reason why that maneuver is named cobra? The name given to YF-17 if I'm not wrong.
By: - 21st September 2006 at 03:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That's an interesting theory, but I think the name "Cobra" comes from the appearance of the Su-27 from head on when it performs the maneuver. The YF-17 team referred to the maneuver as the "hang and look".
By: - 21st September 2006 at 03:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This is must be a hoax. We all know only Russia designs can do the cobra!Sauron
Yeah check out this Cobra :diablo:
By: - 21st September 2006 at 03:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There goes the Russia-only theory...the B-1B can do the land-based Cobra as well :D
By: - 21st September 2006 at 03:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There goes the Russia-only theory...the B-1B can do the land-based Cobra as well :D
LOL! I've seen a B-1 wheelie from the front too. Don't know if it was the same one though.
By: - 25th September 2006 at 15:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So? The YF-17 did it first, and it did do it in airshows. Next.
I would like to see picture or video. I have info that it could do about 65 degrees on tests.
By: - 25th September 2006 at 15:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Firebar, that was at an airshow in New Jersey with a production Langley jet.
Are you sure? Any source?
Before, you were saying that it couldn't pass 60 degrees alpha and now you're saying that it would be unusual if it couldn't? :rolleyes:
I said that it is service limited to 60 degrees, according to serious technical sources, Aviation Week etc.
Do you have any such source which state that it can do 90 degrees Alpha or more, with service aircraft?
(Please do not state generals.)
Regarding TVC, you must admit that Russians are a whole generation ahead in aircraft controllability techniques.
The SU-37, with TVC, can do 360 degrees, a full circle around lateral axis, and it demonstrated this astounding maneuver in airshows.
By: - 25th September 2006 at 15:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I remember that you were claiming 60 degrees max AOA for the raptor about a year back . Go to fencesheck forums and you can communicate with the pilot who performed the RAPTOR COBRA and he likes to take it to about 25 degrees past right angle and hang in there before bringing the nose back . For that particular performance he flew out of langley with a fuel load and 8 A2A missiles , flew subsonic ( airspace limitations) , reached NJ , performed a routine while his wingman did some real neet high speed low alt. flyby's which were LLLLOOOOUUUDDD according to people there and both flew back to langley . Now if that jet isnt in combat condition then i dont know what else . These are operational jets , in an operational squadron flying operational loads , infact DOZER ( the pilot) says that he prefers this way rather then using a configuration that isnt combat practical. Read dozers remarks posted by myself and Frazier in the various threads related to this news.
May be the limit of 60 degrees is lifted now.
Do you have any source, regarding service aircraft limitation ?
By: - 25th September 2006 at 15:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Isn't the Flanker limited to something like 30 degrees in service? Of course, service limitations dont stop the Flankers.
And in some videos you can see the 'FF' markings on the tail. afaik EMD Raptors are not cleared for full flight envelope anyway.
By: - 25th September 2006 at 15:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Firebar the 60 degrees is very much there , the 60 degrees was for sustained AOA and said nothing for Instantanious AOA . Infact throughout the Test program they defined the High AOA and went well past 100 degrees to test the basic performance parameters , furthermore the AOA perfromance for the raptor is compared to basic VISTA in the sence that the aircraft is said to have NO AOA limitations for all practical purposes . Regarding the OPERATIONAL AIRCRAFT the videos are evidence as themselves , they are Not OT aircraft comming in from Edwards or nellis but operational aircraft from the first fighter wing which were flown with a operational combat pilot who has attested to the aircraft being in combat configuration and it being loaded with a combat load of 8 missiles and with enough fuel in the tanks to have it fly in from langley , perform 2 routines , and fly out back to langley . The aircraft is a combat coded raptor simply put .
Do you have any source, regarding service aircraft limitation ?
At the moment there are no limitations vis a vis service aircraft ( these are from my personal experience with talking to raptor maintaince guys and pilots aswell as going through dozer) they are allowed to do whatever they want within the ROE's of the engagement concerned . Currently the pilots are working overtime in getting to know the aircraft better and are really pushing the aircraft to the core , as a result the maintaince people are working overtime to keep the raptor in top form because the no. of maintaince people are simply not present at the moment to support such a useage and are being trained at tyndall so with time that will be sorted out aswell - basic integration problems nothing new . With time they would most likely put a limitor on the speed and AOA that the pilots can do during peace time to maximize airframe life and minimize degradation just like it has happened with every jet before it .
By: - 25th September 2006 at 16:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Can I just make a point on the stupidity of saying something is "limited" in service.
Do you really think a pilot is going to give 2 ****s about the manual when they has an R-77 or similar boring in? Get real!!!
Since its carefree handling they'll do any and every manouvre they can think of to evade!
In war, peacetime limits go out the window.
By: - 25th September 2006 at 17:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Regarding TVC, you must admit that Russians are a whole generation ahead in aircraft controllability techniques.
The SU-37, with TVC, can do 360 degrees, a full circle around lateral axis, and it demonstrated this astounding maneuver in airshows.
No they are not a whole generation ahead. The Raptor's fly-by-wire system is far, far more advanced than of the any Flankers. I would say that the FBW system has even more to do with pointability than thrust vectoring.
Doing a 360 around a lateral axis deos not mean it's the ultimate, most manueverable jet. There is more to it than that. The Raptor will do a barrel roll at a sustained 60 degrees alpha. Something the Flanker cannot do.
The Raptor is still the first fighter designed from the outset for thrust vectoring. Period.
Posts: 451
By: Adrian_44 - 8th September 2006 at 06:11
Here is a video on Goggle of a F-22A doing a cobra. Three URLs where the video can be found are:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4306529957288052978&q=F-22&hl=en
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4306529957288052978&q=label%3Atailslide
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4306529957288052978&q=label%3Acobra
Adrian