By: bring_it_on
- 29th September 2006 at 13:51Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
but ask Israeli pilots which, in F-15s, took part in simulated combat with Luftwaffe Mig-29 in Sardinia, how they fared ?
Why do i need to do that ??? And what the heck does it have to do with the F-22A doing a cobra??? and i wasnt talking about IDF-AF but the IAF with their MKI's
Regarding service limitations of AoA, this is not imposed as a measure to preserve airframe life.
Every fighter has its own AoA limit, beyond which it is prone to departure.
Look at, for instance, F-18 manual. It says that beyound 50 to 55 degrees AoA, the clean F-18 will surely depart and will end in a Falling Leaf from which escape is almost impossible.
There is no such constraints for Mig-29 or SU-27.
So let me get this straight
Every fighter has its own AoA limit, beyond which it is prone to departure until and unless it is a mig-29 or sukhoi in which case this theory of yours mends itself
I agree regarding the F-18 , F-16 etc etc but can a mig-29 do a 360 instantanius KILBIT without TVC ??
And why talk about f-16's and 18's when we are dealing with the raptor ?? And what about MATV/VISTA having demonstrated Stall/departure free manuevrability at all AOA ?? they flew 100 + sorties against simulated threats and testing concluded that that was the case !!
I would say that it is not safe for F-22 yet to demonstrate Cobra maneuver in International airshows.
What the heck are you talking about man?? Are you on SPEED ?? the raptor is not yet cleared to go and participate at an international show by the DOD due to it being new and sensitive , they will slowly open up those restrictions and as the pilot thinks by late 2007 and 2008 they can perhaps participate in a show outside the US boundaries .
And the show at osh was performed in a controlled and adhered to all safety norms and the pilot atleast had enough confidence to take it up with a full missile load and enough fuel to make it back to base after he did perform the manuever and we are not talking about a SUPER SPECIALIST test pilot but a normal combat pilot .
The pilot has to be able to repeat this maneuver every time without fear that his aircraft will depart.
[QUOTE]
The tail side has been repeated on 3 or 4 occasions i believe , DITTO with the 60degrees sustain AOA at circuits , youtube has videos to 2 of the airshows in which the tailside was performed . As for the cobra , was demonstrated twice at osk ( he performed 2 routines that day before heading back) , and dozer has allready said that langley would feature a similar routine but one that gives a little more sneak peak and the capabilities but they do have to save it up for 2007-2008 according to him when the hope to launch it at an international show !!
By: firebar
- 29th September 2006 at 13:52Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Abosolutely ridiculous. Firebar, I concede defeat to your stupidity.
You are too emotional. Be more tolerant to other opinions.
I only have said that we can not see, from video, that it is full fledged service aircraft.
May be it is, but it is not evident from video. That is all.
By: bring_it_on
- 29th September 2006 at 13:53Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
which F-22 can not duplicate yet.
the last two routines the raptor has performes it duplicated it with easy , the next full routine is at a show in october i beilever where it would also duplicate it!! BTW just out of curiousity how many duplications do you need ?? 2 ,3 ....10 ....20.....30...100??
By: bring_it_on
- 29th September 2006 at 13:54Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
May be it is, but it is not evident from video. That is all.
Thats because you saw just that one video , there are about 3-5 little clips of the osh performance and in some of them you can see the tail codes clearly , try looking for them . Plus arent Pilot's own testimonials not enough??
By: bring_it_on
- 29th September 2006 at 14:10Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
the entire f-22 manueverability debate has gone from "SHOW ME F-22 DOING A COBRA"
to " SHOW ME THE F-22 DO ANOTHER COBRA"
and when the raptor does it for the next time it will become
" SHOW ME THE RAPTOR DOING IT AGAIN"
AND "AGAIN"
AND "AGAIN"
TO " THE PILOT DOESNT HAVE CONFIDENCE OF DOING IT AT INTERNATIONAL AIR SHOW"
SUCH COMMENTS mean absolutely nothing - the raptor isnt cleared to perform at those air shows , and airshows of that size and capacity arent routinly in held in the USA , so for the raptor it has to be performing them at which ever air shows it is allowed to participate in . And how is a routine performed at a govt sanctioned ( and prob FAA) Air show where exibitors come from all over the world less credible then a routine performed at an air show which is huge and attracts big buisness???
By: firebar
- 29th September 2006 at 14:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
- Firebar is right in saying that manouverability is affected more by an aircraft's aerodynamics than its fly-by-wire capabilities. However, he is wrong in saying the F-22 has to have a limit to its AoA. There is no reason why it should.
Every fighter has its limit.
The SU-27 has 120 degrees limit, that of Mig-29 is about 100 degrees, etc.
The only fighters which have no limits regarding AoA are SU-37 and SU-30MKI.
It was demonstrated on airshows.
By: firebar
- 29th September 2006 at 14:22Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So whats the AOA limit of a su-30MKI , F-16MATV or a Mig-35 ?? at what AOA do they become Uncontrolable ??
The max for SU-27 is 120 degrees, for MiG-29 it is about 100 degrees.
Again do the russian aircraft hold cobras in a sustained manner ?? Are you sugesting that the Super flanker can sustain 120+ degree AOA ??
Of course not. These are transient maneuvers.
The pilot demonstrating these manuevrs and who also happens to be the most experienced in service raptor pilot says that he can perform everyone of those manuevers and with time he will do so leading up to the big airshow demos more likely in 2008 - however do except some more snippets at Langley this year . Now we can either believe you or believe the man who flies this jet on a daily basis and is asking every entusiast to just hold a while .
I believe him. No doubt.
But the whole point is that it has to be performed by other pilots, not only the best available.
Remember that Luftwaffe and Czech pilots also performed these maneuvers in airshows.
By: firebar
- 29th September 2006 at 14:30Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So let me get this straight
Every fighter has its own AoA limit, beyond which it is prone to departure until and unless it is a mig-29 or sukhoi in which case this theory of yours mends itself
No, no, the Migs and Sukhois have limits also, but theirs limits are very high.
The tail side has been repeated on 3 or 4 occasions i believe , DITTO with the 60degrees sustain AOA at circuits , youtube has videos to 2 of the airshows in which the tailside was performed . As for the cobra , was demonstrated twice at osk ( he performed 2 routines that day before heading back) , and dozer has allready said that langley would feature a similar routine but one that gives a little more sneak peak and the capabilities but they do have to save it up for 2007-2008 according to him when the hope to launch it at an international show !!
I do not doubt it. My point is: can it be demonstrated by average pilot in F-22 ?
By: firebar
- 29th September 2006 at 14:38Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thats because you saw just that one video , there are about 3-5 little clips of the osh performance and in some of them you can see the tail codes clearly , try looking for them . Plus arent Pilot's own testimonials not enough??
I agree with that.
My point is that in MiG-29, the pilots of other nations also do these maneuvers. That is a proof that it can do it safely at any time.
The Cobra and Tail slide maneuvers are even demonstrated by MiG-29 in Farnborough with 6 underwing miissiles. A truly marvelous.
By: bring_it_on
- 29th September 2006 at 15:20Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The only fighters which have no limits regarding AoA are SU-37 and SU-30MKI.
It was demonstrated on airshows
And why because they are all russian?? and what about X-31? F-16MATV ? F-18HARV? , and how do you explain the raptor performing it ??
Of course not. These are transient maneuvers.
So were the raptor Cobra manuevers !! But the 60 degrees Sustained closed circuit was sustained and some other sustained manuevers as well but those werent as interesting to look at !!
But the whole point is that it has to be performed by other pilots, not only the best available.
Shower is a combat coded pilot ( not the best of the best super duper test pilot with tons of experience and multiple test assignments behind him) , and a USAF major ( active squadron driver ) . And your wish of having some other raptor pilot performing it will be answered very soon as Dozer is leaving demos as he is being assigned to ALASKA in preperation of them getting the raptor soon and he'll be leading that squadron . Moreover out of all the people whom do you excpect to perform the manuever?? The manuver is even more credible if it is not performed by a test pilot or super specialized dedicated pilot like the one's flying the Mig-29OVT or F-18E/F or even raptor ( test pilots such as metz) but by AN ACTUAL WARFIGHTER WHO FLIES THE RAPTOR. And you dont want to give credibility to this ??? why i might ask?? what do you want a new recruit who has little or no expereince in flying the raptor to come and do this ?? why would you do that??? It is a new jet and most of the pilots have been handpicked for the FF raptors , as time goes by the raptor program's fresh recruits ( straight out of training) will get to know the raptor better but for now the only operational squadron has some very good pilots flying it and they are in no mood to ask someone else to fly the jet for them when they are perfectly competent to do so themselves .
Remember that Luftwaffe and Czech pilots also performed these maneuvers in airshows.
Good they were combat coded pilots , and what maunvers did they perform ( out of lack of knowledge on this) ? dozer is also a combat pilot so whats yur point ?? he aint a super duper highly selected or highly decorated pilot getting hundereds of thousands of dollar salaries from lockheed but a combat pilot with the raptor squadron (First fighter wing) , what else do you want them to line up all the 20-25 odd pilots and ask you to point at a particular one and then ask him to perform the demo?? I'm sure the RuAF did that to you or did it ??
Migs and Sukhois have limits also, but theirs limits are very high.
And there is something stopping the raptor from also having an equally high limit??? specially when the pilot says he can do all the manuvers they can and vice versa??
And what limit does the Su-37 have when it can do 360 transient as demonstrated , at those levels it has no basic limit when it comes to recovering from a high AOA situation as it can use its nozzle for fligth control to levels very close to zero air speed , the only limit then is altitude and maybe G factor ( ie. if the engines are upto the mark which they certainly are) .
My point is: can it be demonstrated by average pilot in F-22 ?
Can the KILBIT be demonstrated by a average pilot , or the super cobra?? The raptor demos use ACTUAL COMBAT PILOTS STRAIGHT OUT OF THE ONLY OPERATIONAL RAPTOR WING , or do you want a f-16 pilot who knows dickens about f-22 to come and do it for you?? these manuevers are about percission and need to be performed at a closed circuit for a particular crowd therefore they need to be practiced and reheresed which means time and money for such endevours , no-one just simply hands the pilot X and says go perform the cobra to a crowd of 2000 at place XXX etc , they have to be practiced and for this reason one or 2 pilots are selected ( usually one backup pilot) who refine them so that they are more crowd pleasing and adhere to the laws of the circuit and safety regulations . Moreoever one can make evryone else's life easy and ask Lockheed to come in and perform these manuevers by using some of the best and most decorated test pilots in the world like metz but the USAF isnt doing that they are using a pilot out of the few dozen that are combat coded qualified USAF F-22 raptor pilots . Tell me can the KILBIT be performed by a combat RuAF pilot ( specially when RuAF pilots (actual squadron) have no experience with flying TVC jets) , the demo for the raptor would probably be more spectacular if they use a dedicated test pilot like metz etc just like the Sukhoi design beur. use their highly skilled and experienced pilots but maybe at a later date we'll see . The point is to show off the maximum of the jet and not the pilot , most of those crazy yaw manuevers and KILBITS that the mig-29OVT have no practical value as the precission required is too much for a normal squadron jock but the point to show them off isnt that but to stress the perfromance of the airframe,TVC,FBW etc etc.
My point is that in MiG-29, the pilots of other nations also do these maneuvers.
So do you now suggest we ask polish , german pilots who dont own or operate the jet to come and do these manuevers for them ?? Just because no foreign pilot has ever done the KILBIT aboard the su-37 doesnt mean the Su-37 cannot do the KILBIT !! or does it mean that????
By: bring_it_on
- 29th September 2006 at 15:25Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
My point is: can it be demonstrated by average pilot in F-22 ?
I dont give a rats A$$ what a regular pilot can do as long as a raptor pilot can do , only raptor pilots will be flying the raptor not other pilots who are not qualified to fly the raptor.
By: bring_it_on
- 29th September 2006 at 15:32Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Note also that the Su-35/37/30MKI have been doing these stunts for at least ten years - so its all a bit old hat now.
So you want to wait 10 years before you believe that a raptor can do the COBRA??
How long did you wait for the flanker ?? 2 years of demos , 5 years , 6 years ???
The raptor has done 2 routines with the Cobra , more with the Tailside , and the sus 60degrees , there is atleast one performance that i am aware of that is scheduled in october , after that it is a case of where it goes etc etc , the title for the tailside demo etc was TIP OF THE ICEBERG and dozer claims that we havent seen anything yet!! so i agree with you on atleast this much that THE WORD ON SUPER DUPER PERFORMANCE SUCH AS KILBIT,HOOK ETC IS STILL OUT and with time we need to see if the raptor can do those at airshows , however the cobra should be an open shut case specially when a combat pilot casually flies into an airshow ( no just tip off so that i can do my routine and land) with a full weapons load , performs the routine , and then does it again and goes back to langley , had it been "OH CAN WE PULL IT OFF" and scary pants then they would have used virtually empty tanks , no weapons , a much more highly selected pilot ( like a metz or others) and done so in much more controlled environ with a specialized jet (weight reductions , etc etc) and with other security measures ( maybe a shoot ) .
By: sferrin
- 29th September 2006 at 16:19Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So you want to wait 10 years before you believe that a raptor can do the COBRA??
Go out and tell it to a brick wall. It'll understand what you're saying long before Firebar ever will. Like I said, waste of time even replying to him.
By: bring_it_on
- 29th September 2006 at 16:21Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sfferin i dont think so , i think that eventuall with some convincing he will respond to facts , i dont think of any member on this forum as being a brick wall , i believe that he is an inteligent man who has head upon his shoulders capable of understanding the case i ( and almost everyone else on this thread) am trying to make .
By: sferrin
- 29th September 2006 at 16:42Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sfferin i dont think so , i think that eventuall with some convincing he will respond to facts , i dont think of any member on this forum as being a brick wall , i believe that he is an inteligent man who has head upon his shoulders capable of understanding the case i ( and almost everyone else on this thread) am trying to make .
I don't think it's a matter of him being capable of understanding I just don't think he wants to unless it fits his world view. You can throw endless amounts of rock-solid evidence at him and he'll continue to grasp at any straw no matter how rediculous to remain in denial.
By: JFrazier
- 29th September 2006 at 18:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You are too emotional. Be more tolerant to other opinions.
I only have said that we can not see, from video, that it is full fledged service aircraft.
May be it is, but it is not evident from video. That is all.
Firebar, there are pictures from this airshow showing that it is a production aircraft. The only planes flying in the airshows around the US are production aircraft as the prototypes are still at Nellis and Edwards. They have restricted envelopes compared to the production versions anyway.
You still have not proved why the Raptor isn't as aeroynamically efficient as the Flanker or Fulcrum. Vortex has already explained why the Raptor's airframe takes the performance of today's fighter to another level.
Again, the Raptor has a carefree envelope. It will not depart from flight in almost any condition as explained by Kilcoo. You are not voicing an opinion. You are saying that the inability of the Raptor to have a high-AoA envelope is fact.
By: JFrazier
- 29th September 2006 at 18:31Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This is a picture of that exact Raptor from the Atlantc City airshow. Notice the FF tailcode. It's production aircraft with a combat pilot. The pilots say they have no fear of the Raptor departing from flight.
New
Posts: 2,297
By: Nick_76
- 29th September 2006 at 20:57Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 29th September 2006 at 13:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Why do i need to do that ??? And what the heck does it have to do with the F-22A doing a cobra??? and i wasnt talking about IDF-AF but the IAF with their MKI's
So let me get this straight
Every fighter has its own AoA limit, beyond which it is prone to departure until and unless it is a mig-29 or sukhoi in which case this theory of yours mends itself
I agree regarding the F-18 , F-16 etc etc but can a mig-29 do a 360 instantanius KILBIT without TVC ??
And why talk about f-16's and 18's when we are dealing with the raptor ?? And what about MATV/VISTA having demonstrated Stall/departure free manuevrability at all AOA ?? they flew 100 + sorties against simulated threats and testing concluded that that was the case !!
I would say that it is not safe for F-22 yet to demonstrate Cobra maneuver in International airshows.The pilot has to be able to repeat this maneuver every time without fear that his aircraft will depart.[QUOTE]
The tail side has been repeated on 3 or 4 occasions i believe , DITTO with the 60degrees sustain AOA at circuits , youtube has videos to 2 of the airshows in which the tailside was performed . As for the cobra , was demonstrated twice at osk ( he performed 2 routines that day before heading back) , and dozer has allready said that langley would feature a similar routine but one that gives a little more sneak peak and the capabilities but they do have to save it up for 2007-2008 according to him when the hope to launch it at an international show !!
Posts: 875
By: firebar - 29th September 2006 at 13:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You are too emotional. Be more tolerant to other opinions.
I only have said that we can not see, from video, that it is full fledged service aircraft.
May be it is, but it is not evident from video. That is all.
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 29th September 2006 at 13:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
the last two routines the raptor has performes it duplicated it with easy , the next full routine is at a show in october i beilever where it would also duplicate it!! BTW just out of curiousity how many duplications do you need ?? 2 ,3 ....10 ....20.....30...100??
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By: firebar - 29th September 2006 at 13:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not as MiG-29 do it, but it was an early form.
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By: bring_it_on - 29th September 2006 at 13:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thats because you saw just that one video , there are about 3-5 little clips of the osh performance and in some of them you can see the tail codes clearly , try looking for them . Plus arent Pilot's own testimonials not enough??
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 29th September 2006 at 14:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
the entire f-22 manueverability debate has gone from "SHOW ME F-22 DOING A COBRA"
to " SHOW ME THE F-22 DO ANOTHER COBRA"
and when the raptor does it for the next time it will become
" SHOW ME THE RAPTOR DOING IT AGAIN"
AND "AGAIN"
AND "AGAIN"
TO " THE PILOT DOESNT HAVE CONFIDENCE OF DOING IT AT INTERNATIONAL AIR SHOW"
SUCH COMMENTS mean absolutely nothing - the raptor isnt cleared to perform at those air shows , and airshows of that size and capacity arent routinly in held in the USA , so for the raptor it has to be performing them at which ever air shows it is allowed to participate in . And how is a routine performed at a govt sanctioned ( and prob FAA) Air show where exibitors come from all over the world less credible then a routine performed at an air show which is huge and attracts big buisness???
Posts: 875
By: firebar - 29th September 2006 at 14:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Every fighter has its limit.
The SU-27 has 120 degrees limit, that of Mig-29 is about 100 degrees, etc.
The only fighters which have no limits regarding AoA are SU-37 and SU-30MKI.
It was demonstrated on airshows.
Posts: 875
By: firebar - 29th September 2006 at 14:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The max for SU-27 is 120 degrees, for MiG-29 it is about 100 degrees.
Of course not. These are transient maneuvers.
I believe him. No doubt.
But the whole point is that it has to be performed by other pilots, not only the best available.
Remember that Luftwaffe and Czech pilots also performed these maneuvers in airshows.
Posts: 875
By: firebar - 29th September 2006 at 14:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No, no, the Migs and Sukhois have limits also, but theirs limits are very high.
I do not doubt it. My point is: can it be demonstrated by average pilot in F-22 ?
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By: firebar - 29th September 2006 at 14:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I agree with that.
My point is that in MiG-29, the pilots of other nations also do these maneuvers. That is a proof that it can do it safely at any time.
The Cobra and Tail slide maneuvers are even demonstrated by MiG-29 in Farnborough with 6 underwing miissiles. A truly marvelous.
Posts: 3,652
By: Flanker_man - 29th September 2006 at 15:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You show me your video - and I'll show you mine......
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1994695142386399860
(Su-30MKI doing its stuff at MAKS a few years ago).
Note also that the Su-35/37/30MKI have been doing these stunts for at least ten years - so its all a bit old hat now.
The F-22 is just a new kid on the block...............
When it does it regularly, in public, at low level, in front of a crowd, captured on video, I might get slightly impressed. :rolleyes:
Ken
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By: bring_it_on - 29th September 2006 at 15:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And why because they are all russian?? and what about X-31? F-16MATV ? F-18HARV? , and how do you explain the raptor performing it ??
So were the raptor Cobra manuevers !! But the 60 degrees Sustained closed circuit was sustained and some other sustained manuevers as well but those werent as interesting to look at !!
Shower is a combat coded pilot ( not the best of the best super duper test pilot with tons of experience and multiple test assignments behind him) , and a USAF major ( active squadron driver ) . And your wish of having some other raptor pilot performing it will be answered very soon as Dozer is leaving demos as he is being assigned to ALASKA in preperation of them getting the raptor soon and he'll be leading that squadron . Moreover out of all the people whom do you excpect to perform the manuever?? The manuver is even more credible if it is not performed by a test pilot or super specialized dedicated pilot like the one's flying the Mig-29OVT or F-18E/F or even raptor ( test pilots such as metz) but by AN ACTUAL WARFIGHTER WHO FLIES THE RAPTOR. And you dont want to give credibility to this ??? why i might ask?? what do you want a new recruit who has little or no expereince in flying the raptor to come and do this ?? why would you do that??? It is a new jet and most of the pilots have been handpicked for the FF raptors , as time goes by the raptor program's fresh recruits ( straight out of training) will get to know the raptor better but for now the only operational squadron has some very good pilots flying it and they are in no mood to ask someone else to fly the jet for them when they are perfectly competent to do so themselves .
Good they were combat coded pilots , and what maunvers did they perform ( out of lack of knowledge on this) ? dozer is also a combat pilot so whats yur point ?? he aint a super duper highly selected or highly decorated pilot getting hundereds of thousands of dollar salaries from lockheed but a combat pilot with the raptor squadron (First fighter wing) , what else do you want them to line up all the 20-25 odd pilots and ask you to point at a particular one and then ask him to perform the demo?? I'm sure the RuAF did that to you or did it ??
And there is something stopping the raptor from also having an equally high limit??? specially when the pilot says he can do all the manuvers they can and vice versa??
And what limit does the Su-37 have when it can do 360 transient as demonstrated , at those levels it has no basic limit when it comes to recovering from a high AOA situation as it can use its nozzle for fligth control to levels very close to zero air speed , the only limit then is altitude and maybe G factor ( ie. if the engines are upto the mark which they certainly are) .
Can the KILBIT be demonstrated by a average pilot , or the super cobra?? The raptor demos use ACTUAL COMBAT PILOTS STRAIGHT OUT OF THE ONLY OPERATIONAL RAPTOR WING , or do you want a f-16 pilot who knows dickens about f-22 to come and do it for you?? these manuevers are about percission and need to be performed at a closed circuit for a particular crowd therefore they need to be practiced and reheresed which means time and money for such endevours , no-one just simply hands the pilot X and says go perform the cobra to a crowd of 2000 at place XXX etc , they have to be practiced and for this reason one or 2 pilots are selected ( usually one backup pilot) who refine them so that they are more crowd pleasing and adhere to the laws of the circuit and safety regulations . Moreoever one can make evryone else's life easy and ask Lockheed to come in and perform these manuevers by using some of the best and most decorated test pilots in the world like metz but the USAF isnt doing that they are using a pilot out of the few dozen that are combat coded qualified USAF F-22 raptor pilots . Tell me can the KILBIT be performed by a combat RuAF pilot ( specially when RuAF pilots (actual squadron) have no experience with flying TVC jets) , the demo for the raptor would probably be more spectacular if they use a dedicated test pilot like metz etc just like the Sukhoi design beur. use their highly skilled and experienced pilots but maybe at a later date we'll see . The point is to show off the maximum of the jet and not the pilot , most of those crazy yaw manuevers and KILBITS that the mig-29OVT have no practical value as the precission required is too much for a normal squadron jock but the point to show them off isnt that but to stress the perfromance of the airframe,TVC,FBW etc etc.
So do you now suggest we ask polish , german pilots who dont own or operate the jet to come and do these manuevers for them ?? Just because no foreign pilot has ever done the KILBIT aboard the su-37 doesnt mean the Su-37 cannot do the KILBIT !! or does it mean that????
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 29th September 2006 at 15:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I dont give a rats A$$ what a regular pilot can do as long as a raptor pilot can do , only raptor pilots will be flying the raptor not other pilots who are not qualified to fly the raptor.
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 29th September 2006 at 15:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So you want to wait 10 years before you believe that a raptor can do the COBRA??
How long did you wait for the flanker ?? 2 years of demos , 5 years , 6 years ???
The raptor has done 2 routines with the Cobra , more with the Tailside , and the sus 60degrees , there is atleast one performance that i am aware of that is scheduled in october , after that it is a case of where it goes etc etc , the title for the tailside demo etc was TIP OF THE ICEBERG and dozer claims that we havent seen anything yet!! so i agree with you on atleast this much that THE WORD ON SUPER DUPER PERFORMANCE SUCH AS KILBIT,HOOK ETC IS STILL OUT and with time we need to see if the raptor can do those at airshows , however the cobra should be an open shut case specially when a combat pilot casually flies into an airshow ( no just tip off so that i can do my routine and land) with a full weapons load , performs the routine , and then does it again and goes back to langley , had it been "OH CAN WE PULL IT OFF" and scary pants then they would have used virtually empty tanks , no weapons , a much more highly selected pilot ( like a metz or others) and done so in much more controlled environ with a specialized jet (weight reductions , etc etc) and with other security measures ( maybe a shoot ) .
Posts: 9,683
By: sferrin - 29th September 2006 at 16:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Go out and tell it to a brick wall. It'll understand what you're saying long before Firebar ever will. Like I said, waste of time even replying to him.
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 29th September 2006 at 16:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sfferin i dont think so , i think that eventuall with some convincing he will respond to facts , i dont think of any member on this forum as being a brick wall , i believe that he is an inteligent man who has head upon his shoulders capable of understanding the case i ( and almost everyone else on this thread) am trying to make .
Posts: 9,683
By: sferrin - 29th September 2006 at 16:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I don't think it's a matter of him being capable of understanding I just don't think he wants to unless it fits his world view. You can throw endless amounts of rock-solid evidence at him and he'll continue to grasp at any straw no matter how rediculous to remain in denial.
Posts: 278
By: JFrazier - 29th September 2006 at 18:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Firebar, there are pictures from this airshow showing that it is a production aircraft. The only planes flying in the airshows around the US are production aircraft as the prototypes are still at Nellis and Edwards. They have restricted envelopes compared to the production versions anyway.
You still have not proved why the Raptor isn't as aeroynamically efficient as the Flanker or Fulcrum. Vortex has already explained why the Raptor's airframe takes the performance of today's fighter to another level.
Again, the Raptor has a carefree envelope. It will not depart from flight in almost any condition as explained by Kilcoo. You are not voicing an opinion. You are saying that the inability of the Raptor to have a high-AoA envelope is fact.
Posts: 278
By: JFrazier - 29th September 2006 at 18:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This is a picture of that exact Raptor from the Atlantc City airshow. Notice the FF tailcode. It's production aircraft with a combat pilot. The pilots say they have no fear of the Raptor departing from flight.
Posts: 2,297
By: Nick_76 - 29th September 2006 at 20:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Love the Mustang and the Phantom..