By: Amiga500
- 2nd September 2014 at 08:01Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Since everyone is posting their wishes for KF-X...
I would like to see the engines spread a little farther apart, add 3D thrust vectoring, eliminate the tails, incorporate a large delta wing with 6 trailing edge control surfaces and a couple or four outboard spoilers.
Doing so would provide a larger weapons bay between the engines, dramatically reduce side sector RCS, provide ample internal volume for fuel and provide maneuver performance as good as any Gen 4 jet.
+1
Thinking about it really does make you appreciate the PAK-FA planform.
By: Deino
- 2nd September 2014 at 08:28Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
M88-3 is the only design small enough to justify their tight design specs. Unfortunately it's expensive and like the others, unless they pay for development for suped up versions, each pair just isn't powerful enough for a 50,000 pound fighter. It's like they really need a modern Pratt & Whitney PW1120. They are not going to stick to a design using a pair unless they select F414 due really to price and current availability.
It will be strange IMHO if they don't revert back to one engine like the F110-GE-132 and downscale the whole project. Let's face it, the F110's sip fuel compared to the others. The cost is directly relative to the weight. It makes money sense to go the F110. The only better solution is the F135. (Which coincidentally costs what a pair of the others would anyhow.)
If S. Korea truly sees Japan as a regional competitor then it may wish for something using twin F110-GE-132 or F100-PW-229. Japan's stealth fighter will be using engines in the 33-35K pounds of thrust region.
And that IMO will be the bottleneck of that project at all ! Even if I'm sure that Japan has the capabilities to develop such a high-performance engine, it would nevertheless put it in the same class of engines like the US F119 or Russian 117 ... and if that can be done alone esp. with the given budget I don't think.
By the way with all these "5th generation ducklings" which are just incubated anywhere (Turkey, Indi, Korea, ...) or are hatchling from the eggs (China, Japan) ... it will be interesting to see how or these can proceed ...
By: swerve
- 2nd September 2014 at 11:47Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
By the way with all these "5th generation ducklings" which are just incubated anywhere (Turkey, Indi, Korea, ...) or are hatchling from the eggs (China, Japan) ... it will be interesting to see how or these can proceed ...
The Turkish military procurement department is pushing back against Turkey's 5th generation project, on the grounds that it's likely to be very expensive, with little prospect of recovering development costs from exports, & the money would be better spent elsewhere.
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Posts: 3,381
By: Rii
- 2nd September 2014 at 13:44Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In reality the EJ200 doesn't have many future orders left whereas F414 is set for a decade more.
I think a more prominent consideration would be which engine is likely to receive further investment without S. Korea having to fund that itself. None of the candidates are particularly promising in that respect, with EJ200 probably having the most limited prospects vs. US Navy still highly invested in Super Hornet, and French reliance on M88 (is M88/Snecma even in the picture for KF-X??) coupled with possibility of external funding via UAE.
Future joint creation of a successor engine in ~2035-2040 timeframe should also be part of the calculus. Although there is no need to link one project to the other, it is worth noting that US is unlikely to need a successor to F414, relying exclusively on large engines going forward.
But for one F414EPE you could just have F100-PW-229EEP with change to spare.
Where are you getting these engine prices from? It would seem strange for F100 -- a significantly larger engine -- to be cheaper than F414 (which, even if not reaching the volumes of F100/110 families, is hardly a low-volume project like M88) unless it is simply not up to the same standard of technology. Given the timescale of the project, and the importance of SFC for lifecycle cost, lower acquisition cost for inferior technology and higher lifecycle cost would likely be an unacceptable trade-off.
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Posts: 3,381
By: Rii
- 2nd September 2014 at 14:19Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
By the way with all these "5th generation ducklings" which are just incubated anywhere (Turkey, Indi, Korea, ...) or are hatchling from the eggs (China, Japan) ... it will be interesting to see how or these can proceed ...
Need more belligerence from China to boost regional military spending! ;)
Re: Turkey & TF-X, I still think the Turkey-Sweden-Brazil axis is one to watch.
By: Deino
- 2nd September 2014 at 15:14Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Maybe :highly_amused: ... but to admit I do not hope but fear that the current and most recent rising Russian belligerence will rise additional regional military spending especially in Western-Europe !
Anyway a certain counterweight from India and Korea against China wouldn't be far from bad. ... as such I really don't understand why both do not cooperate and even more Your idea of Brazil is brilliant.
Deino
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Posts: 3,381
By: Rii
- 2nd September 2014 at 16:42Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
By: MadRat
- 3rd September 2014 at 04:56Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
F414 production volume is roughly equal to Typhoon volume. Its 3x the M88 production volume at least, but not a lot bigger than EJ200 production. F110 production volume is most of USAF F-16CJ fleet and quite a few exports, so not low volume by any stretch.
By: Maro.Kyo
- 8th March 2017 at 16:50Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
ay folks! Newbie here, first time posting on keypublishing forum.
Guess this KF-X thread has been abandoned for quite a while. Well, tbh, there are lots of other things to discuss about which is either more interesting or important or both of 'em than talkig about something related to KF-X. Anyways, I've found out several threads regarding KF-X in keypublishing though wasn't that popular thus lots of info in this thread is false and incomplete so I'll give a brief info about it.
KF-X project was first mentioned on 3rd of November 2000 so roughly about 16 and a half years ago when the former president Kim, Dae Jung attended the shipment ceremony of KT-1 basic trainer. There he declared that Korea will develop an indigenous fighter jet which is fitted with up-to-date HW, SW and capabilities at latest till 2015, which, well, is not the case anymore. Then the ED of KF-X took place and there resulted the conventional main wing-tail wing configuration C100 model and European styled canard - main wing configuration C200. These initial designs developed further into C1/201/, C1/202 and finally, the C103 and C203.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]251806[/ATTACH]
KF-X c101 revealed in Seoul air show 2011
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KF-X c201 from the official press of MoD, the 'Daily Kookbang' in 2011
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Models of KF-X C103 and C203 displayed at national parliament in January the 2013, during the debate of national defense comittee
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Internal configuration of KF-X C103. There is an aerial refueling probe but KFX will probably designed with a dock for a boom.
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KF-X C104, the first improved model after the approval of KFX System development after 14 years of never-ending postpone. Revealed in October the 2015, at Seoul air show.
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[ATTACH=CONFIG]251811[/ATTACH]
KF-X C105 going through series of subsonic wind tunnel test at KARI's facility in Daejon
As you can see, the selected configuration is a main wing - tail wing C10X series.
Anyways, before 2015 when KF-X was at last authorized, KF-X went through several ED processes though got stuck for -as what I've mentioned above - 14 years on ED and feasibility evaluation due to the changing of president and parliament members, reported lacking of feasibility from various sources who've conducted feasibility evaluation and most of all, lack or technology. Somehow this got through on year 2015, mainly due to the 3rd F-X, which the foreign 4.5th gen or 5th gen candidates were too expensive for the ROKAF to afford it and replace the aging F-5 in the 2020s and KF-16 in 2030s. Thus in-Korea built FA-50 had a good reputation within the ROKAF which gave an extra thrust for KF-X to get through the approval. Today, ADD and KAI aims to put KFX into service by 2026, so in 9 years. KFX is being developed by KAI, assisted by the ADD, the Korean DARPA equivilant, KARI, Lockheed Martin as TAC, various other foreign companies like ELTA who will assist Hanhwa Thales to develop the AESA radar, GE to license Hanhwa Techwin to produce F414 and transfer the technologies, MECAER to assist Hanhwa developing the landing gear, and so on.
Based on information from Last year on November, current design is C106 and the final design will be C109 which will appear by May the 2018. Unlike F-35, KF-X doesn't carry a built-in internal targeting pod even in Block. 3. KFX currently has a plan till Block. 3 development and can be developed further on. Unlike Eurofighter or F-35, KF-X will already have every capability by Block. 1. Block. 2 and Block. 3 are only the certification process, so the mass production block will be Block. 3. Thus initially the quantity Indonesian air force, Korea's partner in KF-X development, planned to introduce was only around 50 ~ 60 though due to vast air space and sea Indonesian air force has to cover, it is expected for Indonesia to buy more IF-X (Indonesian version of KF-X)
By: Maro.Kyo
- 8th March 2017 at 17:05Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
[ATTACH=CONFIG]251816[/ATTACH]
KF-X C103 model
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plan for the selection of standard design. There were originally 3 different kinds of standard design candidates, which were :
1.) remodeling of existing 4.5 gen aircraft
F-16 proposed by Lockheed Martin
F-18 proposed by Boeing
Eurofighter proposed by EADS
2.) remodeling of FA-50 proposed by KAI, the so-called KFX-E or KF-X model C501, a single engine design
3.) whole new design. So C10X or C20X family
this got reduced to either C103 based or C501 based. At the end, C103 was selected. C501 was too small.
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An initial development concept of KF-X. Block. 1 was going to be a semi-stealth 4.5 gen fighter. Then the Block. 2, an aircraft with an early stealth fixed-wing aircraft equivalent radar signature and integrated software. Last but not least, the Block .3, a fully 5th gen fighter, which ADD didn't even had a grasp on what they should've done to make it 5th gen. (Well, hopefully KARI and KAI thus ETRI did)
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KF-X initial design history before C104
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Transition period development concept of KF-X in late 2015 ~ early 2016. This got changed to the current development concept that I've explained in the above post.
By: Maro.Kyo
- 8th March 2017 at 17:45Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Plasma application on KF-X
k, now comes the interesting part and thus the sole motivation that made me start this thread : the plasma stealth and flow control with help of plasma.
First, I will introduce u guys about a recent groundbreaking result of ADD's R&D on plasma, which is, a flexible electrode and its application, a Wearable Plasma Fabric - its always something wearable or elastic these days ヾ(´∀｀○)ﾉ - or a WAPP(Wearable Atmospheric Pressure Plasma) fabric, which is a gas supplier independent system, therefore doesn't needs a gas supplier to supply Argon or Helium unlike the legacy plasma producing electrodes in order to create plasma.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]251824[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]251841[/ATTACH]
As you can see here, the electrode necessary to create a plasma from the atmosphere is in a flexible fabric form.
Until now, it was seen impossible to create a 3 dimensional electrode but only a simple shaped flat-surfaced ones.
Anyways, there are are various possible application of this WAPP such like wearable plasma anti NBC protective suit or detoxification blanket against hydro-soluble chemical weapons and so on.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]251842[/ATTACH]
fig.2) dissection of plasma blanket - abstract from "100 new major patents of ADD ver. 2016"
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fig.3) weaving of WAPP and fig.4) possible applications - abstract from "100 new major patents of ADD ver. 2016"
Now, plasma, apart from its various useful characteristics, also acts like a very effective RAM, absorbing electromagnetic waves of an incomparable bandwidths/wavelengths with even higher energy. Applied on an aircraft, one may achieve a lower radar signature even compared to those 5th gen design without current aerodynamic-unfriendly stealth profiles but in a rather conventional and "more aerodynamic" 4th gen form.
Apart from plasma stealth, it is also known able to control the flow of a fluid through use of plasma, which means an unstable and unwanted flow of air caused by IWB or any other compartments of the aircraft can also be controlled by the plasma created by WAPP, stabilizing the flow and more over, improving the aerodynamic characteristics of the aircraft without major structural change.
For now, the plasma stealth technology will only be applied on vital parts for decreasing the RCS, such like IWB of the KFX.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]251844[/ATTACH]
abstract from "core technology priority planning for national defense (ver. 2017)". part in red box reads : IWB RCS reduction technology through use of plasma"
"Study of Aerodynamic Drag Reduction Using Plasm Flow Control" - 2012
"Flow Actuation by Plasma Actuator With Different DC Discharges" - 2015
Well, above studies doesn't emphasize the usage of WAPP due to the fact that those have been written before WAPP was revealed, though there are already research programs going on such like "flow control system using 3 dimensional surface discharge"
[ATTACH=CONFIG]251825[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]251825[/ATTACH]
(click to enlarge)
In page 48, it states that WAPP can create plasma state oxygen and nitrogen. fig.1) shows the legacy atmospheric pressure plasma generator and its application, namely : [(dielectric barrier discharge and downstream processing), (Corona discharge and In-Situ processing of wafers), (plasma torch and In-Situ processing of textiles) and (atmospheric pressure plasma jet and medical sterilization & decontamination)]. As one may see, those legacy APP generators are not suitable for aircraft application and like what I said on the top, needs a gas supplier to supply necessary gases like Argon or Helium in order to create plasma.
In page 49 part 3, it states that WAPP's TRL will reach level 5 by September this year, so there are long way to go for WAPP to reach TRL-9 but KFX still needs around 8 years to get fully developed so time-wise, there ain't no problem regarding it. In part 4 are the listed further R&D programs and the possible application.
Its been applied for a international patent in the US and Germany so if you have interest on it, you may search for it few months later when it gets registered as a PCT patent.
Overall, unlike shady plasma stealth technology of PAK-FA which is still in the dark in the ocean of rumors, ADD has revealed quite a lot of information regarding the plasma stealth technology using WAPP which is to be applied on KFX. I guess DAPA may use this as a jack on their hands to get more out of the US like sensor fusion technologies as an offset for exchanging technologies. Well, that's what Japan did in the 20th century developing FS-X or F-2 so why not Korea?
P.S - I've posted this also on the other forum and copied it here so if you find this post somewhere else, that'ss probably written by me.
By: halloweene
- 8th March 2017 at 22:42Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
k, now comes the interesting part and thus the sole motivation that made me start this thread : the plasma stealth and flow control with help of plasma.
First, I will introduce u guys about a recent groundbreaking result of ADD's R&D on plasma, which is, a flexible electrode and its application, a Wearable Plasma Fabric - its always something wearable or elastic these days ヾ(´∀｀○)ﾉ - or a WAPP(Wearable Atmospheric Pressure Plasma) fabric, which is a gas supplier independent system, therefore doesn't needs a gas supplier to supply Argon or Helium unlike the legacy plasma producing electrodes in order to create plasma.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]251824[/ATTACH]
As you can see here, the electrode necessary to create a plasma from the atmosphere is in a flexible fabric form.
Until now, it was seen impossible to create a 3 dimensional electrode but only a simple shaped flat-surfaced ones.
Anyways, there are are various possible application of this WAPP such like wearable plasma anti NBC protective suit or detoxification blanket against hydro-soluble chemical weapons and so on.
[attachment=1]1487084918.jpg[/attachment]
fig.2) dissection of plasma blanket - abstract from "100 new major patents of ADD ver. 2016"
[attachment=0]1486907809 (1).jpg[/attachment]
fig.3) weaving of WAPP and fig.4) possible applications - abstract from "100 new major patents of ADD ver. 2016"
Now, plasma, apart from its various useful characteristics, also acts like a very effective RAM, absorbing electromagnetic waves of an incomparable bandwidths/wavelengths with even higher energy. Applied on an aircraft, one may achieve a lower radar signature even compared to those 5th gen design without current aerodynamic-unfriendly stealth profiles but in a rather conventional and "more aerodynamic" 4th gen form.
Apart from plasma stealth, it is also known able to control the flow of a fluid through use of plasma, which means an unstable and unwanted flow of air caused by IWB or any other compartments of the aircraft can also be controlled by the plasma created by WAPP, stabilizing the flow and more over, improving the aerodynamic characteristics of the aircraft without major structural change.
For now, the plasma stealth technology will only be applied on vital parts for decreasing the RCS, such like IWB of the KFX.
abstract from "core technology priority planning for national defense (ver. 2017)". part in red box reads : IWB RCS reduction technology through use of plasma"
"Study of Aerodynamic Drag Reduction Using Plasm Flow Control" - 2012
"Flow Actuation by Plasma Actuator With Different DC Discharges" - 2015
Well, above studies doesn't emphasize the usage of WAPP due to the fact that those have been written before WAPP was revealed, though there are already research programs going on such like "flow control system using 3 dimensional surface discharge"
[ATTACH=CONFIG]251825[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]251825[/ATTACH]
(click to enlarge)
In page 48, it states that WAPP can create plasma state oxygen and nitrogen. fig.1) shows the legacy atmospheric pressure plasma generator and its application, namely : [(dielectric barrier discharge and downstream processing), (Corona discharge and In-Situ processing of wafers), (plasma torch and In-Situ processing of textiles) and (atmospheric pressure plasma jet and medical sterilization & decontamination)]. As one may see, those legacy APP generators are not suitable for aircraft application and like what I said on the top, needs a gas supplier to supply necessary gases like Argon or Helium in order to create plasma.
In page 49 part 3, it states that WAPP's TRL will reach level 5 by September this year, so there are long way to go for WAPP to reach TRL-9 but KFX still needs around 8 years to get fully developed so time-wise, there ain't no problem regarding it. In part 4 are the listed further R&D programs and the possible application.
Its been applied for a international patent in the US and Germany so if you have interest on it, you may search for it few months later when it gets registered as a PCT patent.
Overall, unlike shady plasma stealth technology of PAK-FA which is still in the dark in the ocean of rumors, ADD has revealed quite a lot of information regarding the plasma stealth technology using WAPP which is to be applied on KFX. I guess DAPA may use this as a jack on their hands to get more out of the US like sensor fusion technologies as an offset for exchanging technologies. Well, that's what Japan did in the 20th century developing FS-X or F-2 so why not Korea?
P.S - I've posted this also on the other forum and copied it here so if you find this post somewhere else, that'ss probably written by me.
Nice, but shouldn't it be on a different dedicated topic?
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Posts: 1,168
By: KGB
- 9th March 2017 at 02:47Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I do wonder about the choice of Lockheed Martin as foreign partner when it comes to building what amounts to direct competitor to LM's own F-35.
Also, I wonder if Japan's recent ATD-X rollout had anything to do with the decision in favour of the more ambitious twin-engine design. ;)
Just when projects like this look like they are being mothballed, they pop up again. Korea, Japan, Turkey and the UAE project are all putting the squeeze on F 35 production numbers.
I think Pierre Sprey is going to be right. There won't be more than 500 F-35's built.
New
Posts: 1,168
By: KGB
- 9th March 2017 at 02:51Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Just as F-35 was designed around the United States' unique requirements, KF-X is evidently being designed first-and-foremost around Korea's requirements with export a secondary consideration, and this could well be a wise decision: the export market ain't what it used to be, and most of it will have been gobbled up by F-35 or Gripen E before KF-X could take the stage regardless of configuration.
What is Korea's unique requirement ?
These are all make-work projects. Military Keynesianism at its worst.
New
Posts: 1,168
By: KGB
- 9th March 2017 at 03:04Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The point is to build your own aircraft for both economic and strategic reasons, obviously.
This will be a bottomless money pit and a drain on the tax payer and treasury. And since they are starting from rock bottom with a clean slate design, it will become a political scandal and a national embarrassment just like the F 35 is. Cost overruns, unforeseen problems ect.
There is no economic reason to do this
New
Posts: 1,168
By: KGB
- 9th March 2017 at 03:10Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
eurojet is nice, but flakey. look at the eurofighter program and promises all around about its potential but implementation taking forever.
best korea stick to american
By: TomcatViP
- 9th March 2017 at 04:03Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thank you Maro.Kyo. The KFX is IMOHO one of the most promising concept of all the non US/EU 5th Gen stealth aircraft and certainly a solid footstep toward the non-us market dominance.
An actuator in aerodynamics generally refers to a meaning that prevents the development of vorticity in a stream flow. Several techniques exist today (and since long) with usage tailored for each particular domain of flight (Re number) and level of sophistication. Pulse sound waves is one of them for the slow speed domain. Generating pulsed perpendicular current in an ionized flow is another. The generation of plasma is for this usage in a domain filled with gas (airflow) but can also be applied in water. It is of no importance where the Plasma comes from as in certain domain of flight, the electrostatic charges can be sufficient in the airflow or generated. IMOHO, you don't have to focus so much on how the Plasma can be stored to generate enough gas for this application. A fighter plane displace a great amount of air, hence static charges that only require to be perturbed given that you can safely generate the necessary amount of electrical power.
Third stream will bring some advantage here for example.
By: Spitfire9
- 9th March 2017 at 05:52Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Just when projects like this look like they are being mothballed, they pop up again. Korea, Japan, Turkey and the UAE project are all putting the squeeze on F 35 production numbers.
I think Pierre Sprey is going to be right. There won't be more than 500 F-35's built.
I don't know when Pierre Sprey made this prediction but with Israel, Japan and a number of European countries having opted for F-35, I see his prediction more or less as an impossibility. Trump would have to cancel F-35 for less than 500 to be built. Even then LM could switch all production to supplying non-US customers. With 200+ already delivered the non-US orders would take F-35 production way past 500 units.
By: EagleSpirit
- 9th March 2017 at 07:01Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What is Korea's unique requirement ?
These are all make-work projects. Military Keynesianism at its worst.
This will be a bottomless money pit and a drain on the tax payer and treasury. And since they are starting from rock bottom with a clean slate design, it will become a political scandal and a national embarrassment just like the F 35 is. Cost overruns, unforeseen problems ect.
There is no economic reason to do this
Improve indigenous technology and industry, create a plane with total in-country maintenance and support and one with a free hand to modify and integrate weapons.
Keep in mind there have been various feasibility studies done with just as negative an outlook so Korea didn't decide to go ahead while ignorant of the downsides.
By: Spitfire9
- 9th March 2017 at 08:27Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Something strikes me about the Korean/Indonesian, Indian, Turkish projects 5G projects. They all need TOT and because they are different projects, there will be multiple payments for TOT. There is a constraint on development costs for all these projects. I hear a report that the Turkish military is not enthusiastic about the Turkish project, being concerned that it will take up too much of the military budget. Cost overruns are the norm for these types of project. It would be sad if some of these projects were delayed by many, many years or even eventually abandoned due to lack of funding. Would it not have been more sensible to agree a useable (ideal for none) design and to build it together.
I expect the response saying that it would not meet the specifications of the different armed forces but overall I think that compromising on specifications to save money actually increases the capability of an armed force because other equipment that could not be afforded within the budget becomes affordable.
Another thing: suppose India selects a higher thrust version of GE-F414 for the AMCA (and pays for its development), that means Korea or Turkey could then select the same engine without having to pay for its development. I know the KF-X project is more advanced so it's more likely Korea would be paying for the thrust increase but you get the idea.
Posts: 2,163
By: Amiga500 - 2nd September 2014 at 08:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
+1
Thinking about it really does make you appreciate the PAK-FA planform.
Posts: 4,082
By: Deino - 2nd September 2014 at 08:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And that IMO will be the bottleneck of that project at all ! Even if I'm sure that Japan has the capabilities to develop such a high-performance engine, it would nevertheless put it in the same class of engines like the US F119 or Russian 117 ... and if that can be done alone esp. with the given budget I don't think.
By the way with all these "5th generation ducklings" which are just incubated anywhere (Turkey, Indi, Korea, ...) or are hatchling from the eggs (China, Japan) ... it will be interesting to see how or these can proceed ...
Posts: 13,432
By: swerve - 2nd September 2014 at 11:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Turkish military procurement department is pushing back against Turkey's 5th generation project, on the grounds that it's likely to be very expensive, with little prospect of recovering development costs from exports, & the money would be better spent elsewhere.
Posts: 3,381
By: Rii - 2nd September 2014 at 13:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think a more prominent consideration would be which engine is likely to receive further investment without S. Korea having to fund that itself. None of the candidates are particularly promising in that respect, with EJ200 probably having the most limited prospects vs. US Navy still highly invested in Super Hornet, and French reliance on M88 (is M88/Snecma even in the picture for KF-X??) coupled with possibility of external funding via UAE.
Future joint creation of a successor engine in ~2035-2040 timeframe should also be part of the calculus. Although there is no need to link one project to the other, it is worth noting that US is unlikely to need a successor to F414, relying exclusively on large engines going forward.
Where are you getting these engine prices from? It would seem strange for F100 -- a significantly larger engine -- to be cheaper than F414 (which, even if not reaching the volumes of F100/110 families, is hardly a low-volume project like M88) unless it is simply not up to the same standard of technology. Given the timescale of the project, and the importance of SFC for lifecycle cost, lower acquisition cost for inferior technology and higher lifecycle cost would likely be an unacceptable trade-off.
Posts: 3,381
By: Rii - 2nd September 2014 at 14:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Need more belligerence from China to boost regional military spending! ;)
Re: Turkey & TF-X, I still think the Turkey-Sweden-Brazil axis is one to watch.
Posts: 4,082
By: Deino - 2nd September 2014 at 15:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Maybe :highly_amused: ... but to admit I do not hope but fear that the current and most recent rising Russian belligerence will rise additional regional military spending especially in Western-Europe !
Anyway a certain counterweight from India and Korea against China wouldn't be far from bad. ... as such I really don't understand why both do not cooperate and even more Your idea of Brazil is brilliant.
Deino
Posts: 3,381
By: Rii - 2nd September 2014 at 16:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
EDIT: Moved AMCA post to IAF thread.
Posts: 4,951
By: MadRat - 3rd September 2014 at 04:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
F414 production volume is roughly equal to Typhoon volume. Its 3x the M88 production volume at least, but not a lot bigger than EJ200 production. F110 production volume is most of USAF F-16CJ fleet and quite a few exports, so not low volume by any stretch.
Posts: 41
By: Maro.Kyo - 8th March 2017 at 16:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
ay folks! Newbie here, first time posting on keypublishing forum.
Guess this KF-X thread has been abandoned for quite a while. Well, tbh, there are lots of other things to discuss about which is either more interesting or important or both of 'em than talkig about something related to KF-X. Anyways, I've found out several threads regarding KF-X in keypublishing though wasn't that popular thus lots of info in this thread is false and incomplete so I'll give a brief info about it.
KF-X project was first mentioned on 3rd of November 2000 so roughly about 16 and a half years ago when the former president Kim, Dae Jung attended the shipment ceremony of KT-1 basic trainer. There he declared that Korea will develop an indigenous fighter jet which is fitted with up-to-date HW, SW and capabilities at latest till 2015, which, well, is not the case anymore. Then the ED of KF-X took place and there resulted the conventional main wing-tail wing configuration C100 model and European styled canard - main wing configuration C200. These initial designs developed further into C1/201/, C1/202 and finally, the C103 and C203.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]251806[/ATTACH]
KF-X c101 revealed in Seoul air show 2011
[ATTACH=CONFIG]251807[/ATTACH]
KF-X c201 from the official press of MoD, the 'Daily Kookbang' in 2011
[ATTACH=CONFIG]251808[/ATTACH]
Models of KF-X C103 and C203 displayed at national parliament in January the 2013, during the debate of national defense comittee
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Internal configuration of KF-X C103. There is an aerial refueling probe but KFX will probably designed with a dock for a boom.
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KFX C203 design
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KF-X C104, the first improved model after the approval of KFX System development after 14 years of never-ending postpone. Revealed in October the 2015, at Seoul air show.
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KF-X C105 going through series of subsonic wind tunnel test at KARI's facility in Daejon
As you can see, the selected configuration is a main wing - tail wing C10X series.
Anyways, before 2015 when KF-X was at last authorized, KF-X went through several ED processes though got stuck for -as what I've mentioned above - 14 years on ED and feasibility evaluation due to the changing of president and parliament members, reported lacking of feasibility from various sources who've conducted feasibility evaluation and most of all, lack or technology. Somehow this got through on year 2015, mainly due to the 3rd F-X, which the foreign 4.5th gen or 5th gen candidates were too expensive for the ROKAF to afford it and replace the aging F-5 in the 2020s and KF-16 in 2030s. Thus in-Korea built FA-50 had a good reputation within the ROKAF which gave an extra thrust for KF-X to get through the approval. Today, ADD and KAI aims to put KFX into service by 2026, so in 9 years. KFX is being developed by KAI, assisted by the ADD, the Korean DARPA equivilant, KARI, Lockheed Martin as TAC, various other foreign companies like ELTA who will assist Hanhwa Thales to develop the AESA radar, GE to license Hanhwa Techwin to produce F414 and transfer the technologies, MECAER to assist Hanhwa developing the landing gear, and so on.
Based on information from Last year on November, current design is C106 and the final design will be C109 which will appear by May the 2018. Unlike F-35, KF-X doesn't carry a built-in internal targeting pod even in Block. 3. KFX currently has a plan till Block. 3 development and can be developed further on. Unlike Eurofighter or F-35, KF-X will already have every capability by Block. 1. Block. 2 and Block. 3 are only the certification process, so the mass production block will be Block. 3. Thus initially the quantity Indonesian air force, Korea's partner in KF-X development, planned to introduce was only around 50 ~ 60 though due to vast air space and sea Indonesian air force has to cover, it is expected for Indonesia to buy more IF-X (Indonesian version of KF-X)
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By: Maro.Kyo - 8th March 2017 at 17:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
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KF-X C103 model
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plan for the selection of standard design. There were originally 3 different kinds of standard design candidates, which were :
1.) remodeling of existing 4.5 gen aircraft
F-16 proposed by Lockheed Martin
F-18 proposed by Boeing
Eurofighter proposed by EADS
2.) remodeling of FA-50 proposed by KAI, the so-called KFX-E or KF-X model C501, a single engine design
3.) whole new design. So C10X or C20X family
this got reduced to either C103 based or C501 based. At the end, C103 was selected. C501 was too small.
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An initial development concept of KF-X. Block. 1 was going to be a semi-stealth 4.5 gen fighter. Then the Block. 2, an aircraft with an early stealth fixed-wing aircraft equivalent radar signature and integrated software. Last but not least, the Block .3, a fully 5th gen fighter, which ADD didn't even had a grasp on what they should've done to make it 5th gen. (Well, hopefully KARI and KAI thus ETRI did)
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KF-X initial design history before C104
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Transition period development concept of KF-X in late 2015 ~ early 2016. This got changed to the current development concept that I've explained in the above post.
Posts: 41
By: Maro.Kyo - 8th March 2017 at 17:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Plasma application on KF-X
k, now comes the interesting part and thus the sole motivation that made me start this thread : the plasma stealth and flow control with help of plasma.
First, I will introduce u guys about a recent groundbreaking result of ADD's R&D on plasma, which is, a flexible electrode and its application, a Wearable Plasma Fabric - its always something wearable or elastic these days ヾ(´∀｀○)ﾉ - or a WAPP(Wearable Atmospheric Pressure Plasma) fabric, which is a gas supplier independent system, therefore doesn't needs a gas supplier to supply Argon or Helium unlike the legacy plasma producing electrodes in order to create plasma.
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As you can see here, the electrode necessary to create a plasma from the atmosphere is in a flexible fabric form.
Until now, it was seen impossible to create a 3 dimensional electrode but only a simple shaped flat-surfaced ones.
Anyways, there are are various possible application of this WAPP such like wearable plasma anti NBC protective suit or detoxification blanket against hydro-soluble chemical weapons and so on.
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fig.2) dissection of plasma blanket - abstract from "100 new major patents of ADD ver. 2016"
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fig.3) weaving of WAPP and fig.4) possible applications - abstract from "100 new major patents of ADD ver. 2016"
Now, plasma, apart from its various useful characteristics, also acts like a very effective RAM, absorbing electromagnetic waves of an incomparable bandwidths/wavelengths with even higher energy. Applied on an aircraft, one may achieve a lower radar signature even compared to those 5th gen design without current aerodynamic-unfriendly stealth profiles but in a rather conventional and "more aerodynamic" 4th gen form.
Apart from plasma stealth, it is also known able to control the flow of a fluid through use of plasma, which means an unstable and unwanted flow of air caused by IWB or any other compartments of the aircraft can also be controlled by the plasma created by WAPP, stabilizing the flow and more over, improving the aerodynamic characteristics of the aircraft without major structural change.
For now, the plasma stealth technology will only be applied on vital parts for decreasing the RCS, such like IWB of the KFX.
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abstract from "core technology priority planning for national defense (ver. 2017)". part in red box reads : IWB RCS reduction technology through use of plasma"
"Study of Aerodynamic Drag Reduction Using Plasm Flow Control" - 2012
"Flow Actuation by Plasma Actuator With Different DC Discharges" - 2015
Well, above studies doesn't emphasize the usage of WAPP due to the fact that those have been written before WAPP was revealed, though there are already research programs going on such like "flow control system using 3 dimensional surface discharge"
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(click to enlarge)
In page 48, it states that WAPP can create plasma state oxygen and nitrogen. fig.1) shows the legacy atmospheric pressure plasma generator and its application, namely : [(dielectric barrier discharge and downstream processing), (Corona discharge and In-Situ processing of wafers), (plasma torch and In-Situ processing of textiles) and (atmospheric pressure plasma jet and medical sterilization & decontamination)]. As one may see, those legacy APP generators are not suitable for aircraft application and like what I said on the top, needs a gas supplier to supply necessary gases like Argon or Helium in order to create plasma.
In page 49 part 3, it states that WAPP's TRL will reach level 5 by September this year, so there are long way to go for WAPP to reach TRL-9 but KFX still needs around 8 years to get fully developed so time-wise, there ain't no problem regarding it. In part 4 are the listed further R&D programs and the possible application.
Its been applied for a international patent in the US and Germany so if you have interest on it, you may search for it few months later when it gets registered as a PCT patent.
Overall, unlike shady plasma stealth technology of PAK-FA which is still in the dark in the ocean of rumors, ADD has revealed quite a lot of information regarding the plasma stealth technology using WAPP which is to be applied on KFX. I guess DAPA may use this as a jack on their hands to get more out of the US like sensor fusion technologies as an offset for exchanging technologies. Well, that's what Japan did in the 20th century developing FS-X or F-2 so why not Korea?
P.S - I've posted this also on the other forum and copied it here so if you find this post somewhere else, that'ss probably written by me.
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By: halloweene - 8th March 2017 at 22:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Nice, but shouldn't it be on a different dedicated topic?
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By: KGB - 9th March 2017 at 02:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Just when projects like this look like they are being mothballed, they pop up again. Korea, Japan, Turkey and the UAE project are all putting the squeeze on F 35 production numbers.
I think Pierre Sprey is going to be right. There won't be more than 500 F-35's built.
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By: KGB - 9th March 2017 at 02:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What is Korea's unique requirement ?
These are all make-work projects. Military Keynesianism at its worst.
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By: KGB - 9th March 2017 at 03:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This will be a bottomless money pit and a drain on the tax payer and treasury. And since they are starting from rock bottom with a clean slate design, it will become a political scandal and a national embarrassment just like the F 35 is. Cost overruns, unforeseen problems ect.
There is no economic reason to do this
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By: KGB - 9th March 2017 at 03:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Or maybe buy into the Russ/UAE program.
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By: TomcatViP - 9th March 2017 at 04:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thank you Maro.Kyo. The KFX is IMOHO one of the most promising concept of all the non US/EU 5th Gen stealth aircraft and certainly a solid footstep toward the non-us market dominance.
An actuator in aerodynamics generally refers to a meaning that prevents the development of vorticity in a stream flow. Several techniques exist today (and since long) with usage tailored for each particular domain of flight (Re number) and level of sophistication. Pulse sound waves is one of them for the slow speed domain. Generating pulsed perpendicular current in an ionized flow is another. The generation of plasma is for this usage in a domain filled with gas (airflow) but can also be applied in water. It is of no importance where the Plasma comes from as in certain domain of flight, the electrostatic charges can be sufficient in the airflow or generated. IMOHO, you don't have to focus so much on how the Plasma can be stored to generate enough gas for this application. A fighter plane displace a great amount of air, hence static charges that only require to be perturbed given that you can safely generate the necessary amount of electrical power.
Third stream will bring some advantage here for example.
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By: Spitfire9 - 9th March 2017 at 05:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I don't know when Pierre Sprey made this prediction but with Israel, Japan and a number of European countries having opted for F-35, I see his prediction more or less as an impossibility. Trump would have to cancel F-35 for less than 500 to be built. Even then LM could switch all production to supplying non-US customers. With 200+ already delivered the non-US orders would take F-35 production way past 500 units.
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By: EagleSpirit - 9th March 2017 at 07:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Improve indigenous technology and industry, create a plane with total in-country maintenance and support and one with a free hand to modify and integrate weapons.
Keep in mind there have been various feasibility studies done with just as negative an outlook so Korea didn't decide to go ahead while ignorant of the downsides.
Posts: 2,626
By: Spitfire9 - 9th March 2017 at 08:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Something strikes me about the Korean/Indonesian, Indian, Turkish projects 5G projects. They all need TOT and because they are different projects, there will be multiple payments for TOT. There is a constraint on development costs for all these projects. I hear a report that the Turkish military is not enthusiastic about the Turkish project, being concerned that it will take up too much of the military budget. Cost overruns are the norm for these types of project. It would be sad if some of these projects were delayed by many, many years or even eventually abandoned due to lack of funding. Would it not have been more sensible to agree a useable (ideal for none) design and to build it together.
I expect the response saying that it would not meet the specifications of the different armed forces but overall I think that compromising on specifications to save money actually increases the capability of an armed force because other equipment that could not be afforded within the budget becomes affordable.
Another thing: suppose India selects a higher thrust version of GE-F414 for the AMCA (and pays for its development), that means Korea or Turkey could then select the same engine without having to pay for its development. I know the KF-X project is more advanced so it's more likely Korea would be paying for the thrust increase but you get the idea.