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By: - 25th July 2011 at 22:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The other removable section is the second cargo door
By: - 25th July 2011 at 23:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Inward opening parachute door. As you can see, the main door opens outwards, which would be somewhat difficult to open in flight....
By: - 25th July 2011 at 23:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
JT442. Wow so simple ! Thank you, yes I can see what you mean ! so therefore, it is an open door !!!!
Keith.
By: - 26th July 2011 at 00:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Pretty clever those Douglas engineers of 70 years ago....:D
By: - 26th July 2011 at 01:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Interesting, I'd never twigged that the inner door opened inwards and the half-cargo door opened outward. We live and learn.
The C-47 / Dakota cargo door in use:
http://ajrp.awm.gov.au/AJRP/remember.nsf/popup/SkoolDakota
http://www.lonesentry.com/blog/loading-a-jeep-into-a-c-47-cargo-plane.html
http://www.ww2incolor.com/us-armor/medic-ambulance-c47.jpg.html
One way to (roughly) tell a civil DC-3 from a military C-47 family member is if it has the cargo door it's military (ex-military) and if it had a round topped single doorway it's an ex-civilian machine. There were some with the passenger door on the starboard, and some converted for a cargo door, so it's not 100% accurate.
All credit, JBoyle, and pretty clever, but not quite as clever as whoever invented the Beaver tail or integral ramp. IIRC, first examples of those were in German aircraft - Gotha glider and Ju 352?
By: - 26th July 2011 at 01:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Pretty clever those Douglas engineers of 70 years ago....:D
:D:cool:
By: - 26th July 2011 at 02:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
All credit, JBoyle, and pretty clever, but not quite as clever as whoever invented the Beaver tail or integral ramp. IIRC, first examples of those were in German aircraft - Gotha glider and Ju 352?
Agreed, but the earlier Burnelli Lifting Fuselage, the CBY-3, had a Beaver tail, just no door.
The Curtiss Caravan (ff Jan. 43) and Budd Conestoga (ff Oct.43) were contemporaries of the German aircraft and the C-76 beat the JU 352 (ff. Oct 43) into the air.
By: - 26th July 2011 at 03:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks John. It was a cheap shot I made, really, as the beaver tail / rear loading door would've been a major redesign on the C-47, but it's interesting how long the beaver tail took to get adopted properly. I think almost all the aircraft we've mentioned were hardly 'successes'.
By: - 26th July 2011 at 04:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks John. It was a cheap shot I made, really, as the beaver tail / rear loading door would've been a major redesign on the C-47, but it's interesting how long the beaver tail took to get adopted properly. I think almost all the aircraft we've mentioned were hardly 'successes'.
Large orders for both the US types were cancelled (600 Caravans, 200 of the steel Conestogas) when the war ended. So they might have been successful...(there is a long list of late in the war "might have beens"...:) )
But the Gotha glider's twin boom arrangement proved successful.
Look at the C-82 (ff. Sept 1944), C-119 (ff. Nov 1947), Noratlas (ff. Sept 1949) and finally the AW/HS Argosy (ff. 1961, rather late in the game, but it was the only one delivered with turboprops).
And not wanting to take anything away from the Gotha, since it did fly and enter service first, but it should be noted the C-82 was also designed in 1941. So I don't think we can accuse the Fairchild designers of copying the German layout.
Being a larger, powered, all metal aircraft it naturally took longer to get in the air than the Gotha design.
By: - 26th July 2011 at 05:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Quite a number of military troop transports (C-53s) built from new without the C-47 double door too, James.
Fair comment, Mike. Only a very rough rule of thumb!
By: - 26th July 2011 at 06:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Wasn't the door removed completely for Normandy?
By: - 26th July 2011 at 06:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Wasn't the door removed completely for Normandy?
It's quite a large area, I don't think it'd fit in. :cool:
Seriously though, the inner door might've been removed, but to remove the aft cargo door might cause problems by allowing the paratroops out further aft than they were meant to go, with potential collisions with the tailplane. But I'm guessing.
By: - 26th July 2011 at 08:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Inward opening parachute door. As you can see, the main door opens outwards, which would be somewhat difficult to open in flight....
Interesting, I'd never twigged that the inner door opened inwards and the half-cargo door opened outward. We live and learn.
Almost,
The C-47 Skytrain and Dakota has two large cargo doors, both the forward and aft doors hinge outwards and both are removable on the ground for loading larger freight and can be left removed for air dropping - though that seems quite rare.
The forward cargo door has within it a smaller removable door panel (you can see the grab handles in KN pics) which during flight can be unlatched, lifted upwards and inwards, and stowed out of the way for paratroop drops.
By: - 26th July 2011 at 10:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Re Post #14
I don’t think the problem is that of the paratrooper hitting the C-47 tail, but of the parachute fouling the tail. When the trials were carried out prior to the filming of the para-drops for the film “A Bridge Too Far” these were conducted by PJIs from 1 PTS on to the DZs at Hankley Common and Everleigh.
The point at which the static line pulls the cover off the parachute is governed by the length of the static line. This, in turn, is governed by the positioning of a metal stop which is clamped to the running cable inside the fuselage of the C-47. It is clamped with 6 bolts and is known – not surprisingly – as “the 6-bolt stop”.
Once it was clear that the PJI would not hit the tail the next stage was to make certain that the parachute itself did not wrap itself round the tail-plane. This was done by adjusting the position of the 6-bolt stop. To check the parachute/tail-plane clearance the underside of the port tail-plane was painted with black printers ink. The brush strokes were at right-angles to the direction of flight. After each drop the parachutes were examined for the presence of any tell-tale ink. After landing back at Odiham the a/c was also inspected for any signs of the chutes having flicked the underside of the tail at the deployment phase.
HTH
Resmoroh
By: - 26th July 2011 at 12:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Apart from positioning the Six bolt stop the Dakota / C47 would require aditional preperation for parachuting. The rear face of the doorframe, the hinges, any latches or other projections including the tailwheel leg, would need to be covered / faired over with multipul layers of self adhesive fabric 'masking tape'.
Re. the 6 bolt stop, the position would depend upon the type of parachute being used and the position of the anchor cable. Wartime aircraft had anchor cables either at head height or waist level.
By: - 26th July 2011 at 12:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
According to accounts in ‘Band of Brothers’ by Stephen E. Ambrose the pilots of some C-47 involved in the Normandy drops gave the paratroops the choice to have the door on or off; the choice being either to be warmer or to be able to get out quicker in an emergency...
...the paratroops went for ‘door off’! ;)
By: - 26th July 2011 at 12:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks gents. I recall the very memorable 'paratroopers view' shot in Bridge too Far including the departure from the Dak. I also (as just mentioned) recall the very evident taping in 'real' paratrooping shots of the notable aft hinges, which give the lie to some of my earlier guesswork!
Fascinating extra detail though, cheers.
By: - 26th July 2011 at 13:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I had a good look over a Dak a couple of years ago and all the door features were pointed out, ISTR that the unlatched para door is stowed against the toilet bulkhead.
As Aeronut says evey little gap and join just aft of the exit was taped over to reduce any snagging risk.
I have seen images of the fwd main cargo door (RAF, USAF Korea & Vietnam)removed in flight and the rear, but haven't seen a photo of both removed, does anyone know if they actually did fly like this?
By: - 26th July 2011 at 13:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A C47 flying last year with both doors removed ;):D:D See link
http://www.verslo.is/baldur/2010070204_TF-NPK/
By: - 26th July 2011 at 13:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Just found a photo of an AC-47 in flight with both doors open...
http://www.harpoondatabases.com/encyclopedia/Entry1779.aspx
RMR
Posts: 2,322
By: keithnewsome - 25th July 2011 at 22:49
Something I have thought about over the last few years !!! having seen the BBMF Dakota fly past at several venues on several occasions .... I have seen, along with millions of others, the crew member standing at the 'seemingly open' door, waving and pleasing the enthralled audience !
My question is .... is it an 'open door' or is it a cutaway section within the framework of the original door ? with a perspex, plexiglass, whatever, cover ??? I seem to think that I have a photo of that crew member with the waving hand outside of the boundaries of the door ? but as yet I cannot find it !!!! So to the present time .... ZA947 arrived at Norwich this weekend, for the attentions of 'Air Livery' giving me the opportunity to collect some photos of 'that' door ...... So a couple of the landing ... clearly showing the 'open' door ...
And a close up of the inside of 'that door' with what looks like a removeable section ?? thanks to Sgt. Duncan Pritchard .... LM on his badge ... 'Load Master' ??