By: Creaking Door
- 29th July 2011 at 17:18Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Having spent several years as a 'Boffin' testing parachute systems people like that were the bane of my life. I'd spend months working on a system making sure it was safe for the aircraft and all persons involved only for the aircrew or army despatchers to revert to type and try and use the procedures from the old systems (usually dating back to WW2).
I can understand your frustration; maybe this inexperienced pilot was one of the few exceptions in the hundreds of pilots that took part in the D-Day drops.
CD it may seem improbable to you, but it was the most common (& recommended) way that it was operated for para dropping and was suitable for task, the door maybe smaller than the orifice left when the cargo door is removed but it was still big enough for the job. The exit wouldn't have existed if it was deemed as unsuitable.
I take your point; why have the door if it wasn’t satisfactory? The book I quoted from (the only book I’ve read about large paratroop operations) goes to great length to stress how loaded the troops were and how difficult is was for them to move; I guess that could have been emphasised for effect but I quoted the door removal account because it was a first hand account and it proves that it was done on D-Day. There are only two mentions of doors in the book; one on, one off so it is hardly an indicative sample!
By: JDK
- 30th July 2011 at 02:15Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You do say that it was 'normal for paratrooping' to have both doors removed, I personally don't agree with that.
You are misunderstanding what I'm getting at. It was certainly NOT normal - but equally, there seems to be some secondary evidence that removing all the doors for paradrops is not unknown. I'm interested in tracking down further information proving (or not) the latter, because it's a) unusual and b) not covered with primary data here, yet. But that does not mean (nor am I seeking to show) that it was 'normal'. It was not.
The trim tab is evident on the starboard aileron of the skydiving Dak, the quality of the image isn't worth arguing that it 'proves' any thing, and as I said as it was posted, it is irrelevant to proving whether both doors were ever removed for W.W.II paradrop operations. It is a complete distraction, real or not, as it's well known that both doors could be and were removed for other operations (As Oscar's said) and later.
By: J Boyle
- 30th July 2011 at 04:48Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
To quote my father's copy of the C-47 Technical Order
(T.O. 1C-47-1, 1 March 1957).
Section IV
Description and Operation of Auxiliary Equipment.
Troop Carrying Equipment
Parachute Exit Panel
On some aircraft, the inside panel of the forward half of the main cargo door is removable inward by turning the handles near the top of the door and lifting it out. This is used as the exit for parachute troops.
Four hooks and bungee rings installed on the right side of the fuselage, opposite the main cargo handling door, are provided for stowing the panel while using the exit.
Emphasis added.
And some have questioned about bail-out procedures...
Section III
Emergency Procedures
Bail-out Procedures (abridged)
Primary exit will be through the main cargo forward door, which can be jettisoned from the aircraft.
Under the checklist for the navigator it reads...
3. Kick down on the yellow emergency release latch ast the main cargo door forward end and push the door from the aircraft.
By: pagen01
- 30th July 2011 at 09:53Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You are misunderstanding what I'm getting at. It was certainly NOT normal - but equally, there seems to be some secondary evidence that removing all the doors for paradrops is not unknown...
Yes I was, apollogies:o
I have just reread your post and I can now see what you mean.
Just to reiterate what I said way back at post #15,
The C-47 Skytrain and Dakota has two large cargo doors, both the forward and aft doors hinge outwards and both are removable on the ground for loading larger freight and can be left removed for air dropping - though that seems quite rare.
The forward cargo door has within it a smaller removable door panel (you can see the grab handles in KN pics) which during flight can be unlatched, lifted upwards and inwards, and stowed out of the way for paratroop drops.
So I'm aware of the flexibility in the door arrangement, and have always stressed that I think that the normal (ie not absolutely exclusively) paratroop exit procedure is simply the removal of that inset door panel* - it was probably that post that resulted in the posting of that dodgy skydiving pic!
Thanks to JB for posting the extract above, that and Aeronut & Oscar Ducks posts confirm the opertaing proceedures nicely.
I'm also mindfull that whenever aircraft, Air forces, Army and troops come together there can be all sorts of non standard approaches conjured up to get on with the task at hand!:eek:
*Oxford English Dictionary definition of door, 'a hinged, sliding, or revolving barrier at the entrance to a building, room, or vehicle, or in the framework of a cupboard.'
More correctly I'm thinking that the C-47 has a removable panel as opposed to door.
Posts: 9,739
By: Creaking Door - 29th July 2011 at 17:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I can understand your frustration; maybe this inexperienced pilot was one of the few exceptions in the hundreds of pilots that took part in the D-Day drops.
I take your point; why have the door if it wasn’t satisfactory? The book I quoted from (the only book I’ve read about large paratroop operations) goes to great length to stress how loaded the troops were and how difficult is was for them to move; I guess that could have been emphasised for effect but I quoted the door removal account because it was a first hand account and it proves that it was done on D-Day. There are only two mentions of doors in the book; one on, one off so it is hardly an indicative sample!
Posts: 8,195
By: JDK - 30th July 2011 at 02:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You are misunderstanding what I'm getting at. It was certainly NOT normal - but equally, there seems to be some secondary evidence that removing all the doors for paradrops is not unknown. I'm interested in tracking down further information proving (or not) the latter, because it's a) unusual and b) not covered with primary data here, yet. But that does not mean (nor am I seeking to show) that it was 'normal'. It was not.
The trim tab is evident on the starboard aileron of the skydiving Dak, the quality of the image isn't worth arguing that it 'proves' any thing, and as I said as it was posted, it is irrelevant to proving whether both doors were ever removed for W.W.II paradrop operations. It is a complete distraction, real or not, as it's well known that both doors could be and were removed for other operations (As Oscar's said) and later.
Regards,
Posts: 9,871
By: J Boyle - 30th July 2011 at 04:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
To quote my father's copy of the C-47 Technical Order
(T.O. 1C-47-1, 1 March 1957).
Section IV
Description and Operation of Auxiliary Equipment.
Troop Carrying Equipment
Parachute Exit Panel
On some aircraft, the inside panel of the forward half of the main cargo door is removable inward by turning the handles near the top of the door and lifting it out.
This is used as the exit for parachute troops.
Four hooks and bungee rings installed on the right side of the fuselage, opposite the main cargo handling door, are provided for stowing the panel while using the exit.
Emphasis added.
And some have questioned about bail-out procedures...
Section III
Emergency Procedures
Bail-out Procedures (abridged)
Primary exit will be through the main cargo forward door, which can be jettisoned from the aircraft.
Under the checklist for the navigator it reads...
3. Kick down on the yellow emergency release latch ast the main cargo door forward end and push the door from the aircraft.
Hopefully,this should clear things up...
Posts: 10,647
By: pagen01 - 30th July 2011 at 09:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes I was, apollogies:o
I have just reread your post and I can now see what you mean.
Just to reiterate what I said way back at post #15,
So I'm aware of the flexibility in the door arrangement, and have always stressed that I think that the normal (ie not absolutely exclusively) paratroop exit procedure is simply the removal of that inset door panel* - it was probably that post that resulted in the posting of that dodgy skydiving pic!
Thanks to JB for posting the extract above, that and Aeronut & Oscar Ducks posts confirm the opertaing proceedures nicely.
I'm also mindfull that whenever aircraft, Air forces, Army and troops come together there can be all sorts of non standard approaches conjured up to get on with the task at hand!:eek:
*Oxford English Dictionary definition of door, 'a hinged, sliding, or revolving barrier at the entrance to a building, room, or vehicle, or in the framework of a cupboard.'
More correctly I'm thinking that the C-47 has a removable panel as opposed to door.