By: APRichelieu
- 17th February 2017 at 17:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
or maybe just to "change his mind", not buy and let the next government do the opposite? ;)
The prosecutor refers to the bankrupcy of SAAB as the reason for the bribe.
He is not aware of the difference between SAAB, the car company, and SAAB, the defense company.
They split up a long time ago, and it was the car company that went **** up.
By: halloweene
- 17th February 2017 at 18:48Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I knew someone would com to a Godwin Point (bribes), but the example is hilarious. (i) there were politicla and strategic reasons for Lula support to Rafale. (ii) SAAB bribed Lula's son... Last year... So many years after SAAB's bankrupcy.
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By: obligatory
- 17th February 2017 at 19:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
...So: you maintain that SAAB has bribed Lula & family members to buy Rafale ?
its odd to me, but, whatever floats your boat, and it was a failed bribe anyway,
Lula just cashed in and dropped the agenda
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By: KGB
- 18th February 2017 at 03:10Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I don't want to be mean but both you and OP really need to learn English properly
The general said when US does those exercise with India in the past, they only sent their operational pilot with not alot of experience while India often sent their best. So India was able to win more time in close combat. However, when they used pilots with similar experience level, US side was able to dominate with F-15 carrying fuel tank while Su-30 is in clean configuration ( not that i buy what he said but if you think this video even remotely close to support your point then ......well i have no word ".
He did talk about an inexperience Raptor pilot being in trouble in close combat, but it is not against Su-30 but rather against F-15/F-16 in their own exercrise , he even mentioned that how they developed tactics against TVC opponents
You dress up your partisan bickering as a language error to make other ppl look bad. Then you sneak in a reference about the F 15 when you know that the guy is comparing the F 22 to the su 30. Not the F 15.
The USAF Col. in the video get into detail, with hand gestures and a video reference about su 30 vs Raptor.
We have a USAF col on the record saying that the export version su 30 (not 35) can do anything that the Raptor (not F 15) at an airshow yet we are questioning what aircraft is the best 4.5 gen ?
And I know airshows are not everything. But it still speaks volumes of the su 30 and 35.
But then garryA goes on about fuel tanks, better pilots and tactics blah blah blah. Better pilots ? Ok. The de-rated su 30 was dancing with the Raptor. If you want to talk better pilots, how about we take Russia's best pilots in their su 35's and compare. How about that ?
By: FBW
- 18th February 2017 at 03:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
KGB, let's get this straight. You are using the much maligned debriefing from col. Fornof (not that he was wrong, just that his debrief was based on impressions) to support the idea that the Su-30 Mki is as maneuverable as the F-22? Did you get the part about F-15's drilling their brains out with guns going in the vertical? Good non-example. What's next hud footage of the Rafale killing the F-22 to prove the maneuverability of the Su-35 vis a vis the typhoon? They are pilot impressions from exercises, experience counts more than the platform.
By: garryA
- 18th February 2017 at 07:02Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You dress up your partisan bickering as a language error to make other ppl look bad
No i don't. As usual you are trying to push your misunderstanding as fact. In this case it is even worse because anyone who can speak/listen English properly can see that you are wrong. The video even have caption. If you can't understand to what he said then at least turn it on.
Then you sneak in a reference about the F 15 when you know that the guy is comparing the F 22 to the su 30. Not the F 15.
Alright, open the video on full screen, turn on the caption. Between 5:56 and 6:25 , he literally said F-15 with wing tank dominate clean Su-30. No one sneak anything in. It is just you either having very poor English ( which is acceptable, but turn on the caption next time) or trying to troll.
But then garryA goes on about fuel tanks, better pilots and tactics blah blah blah.
I talked about fuel tank and pilots because that is literally what he talked about in the video. You are just embarrassing yourself now
By: halloweene
- 18th February 2017 at 09:33Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
KGB, let's get this straight. You are using the much maligned debriefing from col. Fornof (not that he was wrong, just that his debrief was based on impressions) to support the idea that the Su-30 Mki is as maneuverable as the F-22? Did you get the part about F-15's drilling their brains out with guns going in the vertical? Good non-example. What's next hud footage of the Rafale killing the F-22 to prove the maneuverability of the Su-35 vis a vis the typhoon? They are pilot impressions from exercises, experience counts more than the platform.
Except that Fornof was retired when he did this speach to a "club" (praetorians)
By: FBW
- 18th February 2017 at 13:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Except that Fornof was retired when he did this speach to a "club" (praetorians)
I don't believe he was. If I remember correctly, he did retire soon after. The video flap basically ended his active duty career. He served as commander of Nevada ANG in 2011.
He was still director of requirements and testing USAF warfare center in 2008( looked it up).
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By: KGB
- 18th February 2017 at 15:17Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No i don't. As usual you are trying to push your misunderstanding as fact. In this case it is even worse because anyone who can speak/listen English properly can see that you are wrong. The video even have caption. If you can't understand to what he said then at least turn it on.
Alright, open the video on full screen, turn on the caption. Between 5:56 and 6:25 , he literally said F-15 with wing tank dominate clean Su-30. No one sneak anything in. It is just you either having very poor English ( which is acceptable, but turn on the caption next time) or trying to troll.
I talked about fuel tank and pilots because that is literally what he talked about in the video. You are just embarrassing yourself now
Alright, open the video on full screen, turn on the caption. Between 5:56 and 6:25 , he literally said F-15 with wing tank dominate clean Su-30.
I said that the col was comparing the su 30 to the Raptor. You replied by making it look like, to someone who didn't watch the video, that I posted the wrong video or something because you made it look like the F 15 vs the su 30 was the central topic of the video. When clearly it wasn't.
The subsequent obscurantism that the col went on to say about fuel tanks, F 15's, pilots and tactics does not take away the main point and reason why I posted the video. Which is, that the USAF col said that an su 30 can do anything that a Raptor can do at an airshow. (Indian pilot in a su 30. Not Russian pilot in an su 35)
By: garryA
- 18th February 2017 at 18:02Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I said that the col was comparing the su 30 to the Raptor. You replied by making it look like, to someone who didn't watch the video, that I posted the wrong video or something because you made it look like the F 15 vs the su 30 was the central topic of the video. When clearly it wasn't.
You mean at 3:35 where the general imply how much better Raptor is than Su-30 by his hand gesture or at 9:22-9:29 where is said Su-30 sustain turn rate is no where close to Raptor ?. The video literally go against what you are trying say
The subsequent obscurantism that the col went on to say about fuel tanks, F 15's, pilots and tactics does not take away the main point and reason why I posted the video. Which is, that the USAF col said that an su 30 can do anything that a Raptor can do at an airshow. (Indian pilot in a su 30. Not Russian pilot in an su 35)
You did not said " the su-30 can do anything Raptor do at airshow". If that was the case i wouldnt have reply. You said ( and i quote word for word) :
when India was flying their various 4th and 4.5 gen fighters with the Raptor, the USAF said that the only thing that could play with the Raptor in dogfighting was the su 30's.
No where in the video that the general mentioned such a thing. Not even remotely close.
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By: KGB
- 19th February 2017 at 22:09Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Am I the only one who noticed that the OP put the J10 at #1 ? The J 10??
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By: KGB
- 19th February 2017 at 22:14Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It's the only one with TVC so by default..
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By: Nicolas10
- 19th February 2017 at 23:22Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well the J10 has a DSI
Nic
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By: KGB
- 20th February 2017 at 02:51Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
1 feature does not make an aircraft. The J 10 is Chinas 1st modern domestic entry. China is not an aviation power. It's talents lie elsewhere. How could the J10 be better than aircraft from legacy air powers like the US China, and to a lesser extent France and Sweden ?
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By: APRichelieu - 17th February 2017 at 17:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The prosecutor refers to the bankrupcy of SAAB as the reason for the bribe.
He is not aware of the difference between SAAB, the car company, and SAAB, the defense company.
They split up a long time ago, and it was the car company that went **** up.
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By: Sintra - 17th February 2017 at 17:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If so, the guy´s an idiot!
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By: halloweene - 17th February 2017 at 18:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I knew someone would com to a Godwin Point (bribes), but the example is hilarious. (i) there were politicla and strategic reasons for Lula support to Rafale. (ii) SAAB bribed Lula's son... Last year... So many years after SAAB's bankrupcy.
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By: obligatory - 17th February 2017 at 19:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
...So: you maintain that SAAB has bribed Lula & family members to buy Rafale ?
its odd to me, but, whatever floats your boat, and it was a failed bribe anyway,
Lula just cashed in and dropped the agenda
Posts: 1,168
By: KGB - 18th February 2017 at 03:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You dress up your partisan bickering as a language error to make other ppl look bad. Then you sneak in a reference about the F 15 when you know that the guy is comparing the F 22 to the su 30. Not the F 15.
The USAF Col. in the video get into detail, with hand gestures and a video reference about su 30 vs Raptor.
We have a USAF col on the record saying that the export version su 30 (not 35) can do anything that the Raptor (not F 15) at an airshow yet we are questioning what aircraft is the best 4.5 gen ?
And I know airshows are not everything. But it still speaks volumes of the su 30 and 35.
But then garryA goes on about fuel tanks, better pilots and tactics blah blah blah. Better pilots ? Ok. The de-rated su 30 was dancing with the Raptor. If you want to talk better pilots, how about we take Russia's best pilots in their su 35's and compare. How about that ?
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By: FBW - 18th February 2017 at 03:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
KGB, let's get this straight. You are using the much maligned debriefing from col. Fornof (not that he was wrong, just that his debrief was based on impressions) to support the idea that the Su-30 Mki is as maneuverable as the F-22? Did you get the part about F-15's drilling their brains out with guns going in the vertical? Good non-example. What's next hud footage of the Rafale killing the F-22 to prove the maneuverability of the Su-35 vis a vis the typhoon? They are pilot impressions from exercises, experience counts more than the platform.
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By: garryA - 18th February 2017 at 07:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No i don't. As usual you are trying to push your misunderstanding as fact. In this case it is even worse because anyone who can speak/listen English properly can see that you are wrong. The video even have caption. If you can't understand to what he said then at least turn it on.
Alright, open the video on full screen, turn on the caption. Between 5:56 and 6:25 , he literally said F-15 with wing tank dominate clean Su-30. No one sneak anything in. It is just you either having very poor English ( which is acceptable, but turn on the caption next time) or trying to troll.
I talked about fuel tank and pilots because that is literally what he talked about in the video. You are just embarrassing yourself now
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By: halloweene - 18th February 2017 at 09:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Except that Fornof was retired when he did this speach to a "club" (praetorians)
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By: FBW - 18th February 2017 at 13:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I don't believe he was. If I remember correctly, he did retire soon after. The video flap basically ended his active duty career. He served as commander of Nevada ANG in 2011.
He was still director of requirements and testing USAF warfare center in 2008( looked it up).
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By: KGB - 18th February 2017 at 15:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I said that the col was comparing the su 30 to the Raptor. You replied by making it look like, to someone who didn't watch the video, that I posted the wrong video or something because you made it look like the F 15 vs the su 30 was the central topic of the video. When clearly it wasn't.
The subsequent obscurantism that the col went on to say about fuel tanks, F 15's, pilots and tactics does not take away the main point and reason why I posted the video. Which is, that the USAF col said that an su 30 can do anything that a Raptor can do at an airshow. (Indian pilot in a su 30. Not Russian pilot in an su 35)
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By: garryA - 18th February 2017 at 18:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You mean at 3:35 where the general imply how much better Raptor is than Su-30 by his hand gesture or at 9:22-9:29 where is said Su-30 sustain turn rate is no where close to Raptor ?. The video literally go against what you are trying say
You did not said " the su-30 can do anything Raptor do at airshow". If that was the case i wouldnt have reply. You said ( and i quote word for word) :
No where in the video that the general mentioned such a thing. Not even remotely close.
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By: KGB - 19th February 2017 at 22:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Am I the only one who noticed that the OP put the J10 at #1 ? The J 10??
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By: KGB - 19th February 2017 at 22:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It's the only one with TVC so by default..
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By: Nicolas10 - 19th February 2017 at 23:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well the J10 has a DSI
Nic
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By: KGB - 20th February 2017 at 02:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
1 feature does not make an aircraft. The J 10 is Chinas 1st modern domestic entry. China is not an aviation power. It's talents lie elsewhere. How could the J10 be better than aircraft from legacy air powers like the US China, and to a lesser extent France and Sweden ?