By: paralay
- 16th February 2017 at 13:00Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It's fantastic to see how the Russians underestimate the Gripen. Would come as a nasty surprise if, God forbid, a conflict were to break out.
Prove otherwise ;)
Let me remind you, Gripen lost in the Indian tender
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By: Y-20 Bacon
- 16th February 2017 at 13:03Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Best A-A: definitely something that employs the METEOR.
F-15? No chance..
hmm actually rather than Typhoon, might be Rafale instead.. unlike Typhoon it already has the full Meteor and AESA set in operation and more political will to develop it (Typhoon has a lot of nice whatifs). Rafale also has the range.
By: wellerocks
- 16th February 2017 at 16:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Prove otherwise ;)
Let me remind you, Gripen lost in the Indian tender ALL "average" fighter
Except; it didn't. ;) And you have nothing to prove it with because no official IAF documents have been released with the decisions of the MMRCA. However; statements from Indian sources involved with the work [as seen on livefist] stated that SAAB, unlike Dassault and EADS, were unable to give sufficient proof that the Gripen 39IN would be able to carry nuclear weaponry or house an AESA radar. Dassault barely made the shortlist by putting a styrofoam replica of the planned AESA in its nose. The same source claimed the Gripen would've been shortlisted IF it had shown capability to incorporate an AESA + Nuclear armed missile. The MiG-35 was way further back in the selection process of the MMRCA despite being a logical choice for India as they already had the MiG-29 in its inventory :rolleyes: Despite Russias [and the Manufacturers] claims that it's affordable and the best fighter in the world, India failed to see its charm, both in the MMRCA and the newly made lightweight fighter competition :)
To underestimate the Gripen is something of a general notion going around.
Switzerland: Deemed that Gripen upgrades were unsatisfactory in terms of reliability [all of which have been realized as of today in the Swedish 39E package] and had its performance downsized by a factor of 1.3.
[INDENT][INDENT] Yet, despite having the score downgraded, managed to not only meet the satisfactory levels of performance but still come out as a good choice.[/INDENT]
[/INDENT]
India: Didn't manage to meet the demands of the MMRCA [at the time], but is today the strongest alternative in the competition to complement the Tejas and the MMRCA [Rafale].
Brazil: FAB favored the Gripen over both the Rafale and the Super Bug [in terms of cost/efficiency/capabilities/needs of the FAB] whilst Lula opted for the Rafale in terms of political ties with France [i.e. Bribes]. It wasn't until Dilma went into office that the FAB had their say in the decision and resulted in the choice of the Gripen.
Ofcourse the Gripen has its drawbacks, it's not the perfect fighter for every country nor is it the perfect fighter for all situations. It lacks two engines, heavy ordenence, international fame, range with a large strike payload, it lacks political back-up from Sweden and it is relying on permission from the US to sell it. It is however THE leading fighter in areas of cost/performance, No TVC manueverability, aerodynamic low-drag design and low signature [RCS/IR] for 4.5gen fighters (Gripen A had an RCS of 0,1m2 in official verified documents released by FMV, and each evolution A -> C -> E has only recieved more signature reducing measures of which Gripen E will recieve the biggest leap yet. The MiG-35 doesn't even come close no matter how far Russian propaganda wants to spin the MiG-35. :rolleyes:
By: TooCool_12f
- 16th February 2017 at 17:04Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Except; it didn't. ;) And you have nothing to prove it with because no official IAF documents have been released with the decisions of the MMRCA. However; statements from Indian sources involved with the work [as seen on livefist] stated that SAAB, unlike Dassault and EADS, were unable to give sufficient proof that the Gripen 39IN would be able to carry nuclear weaponry or house an AESA radar. Dassault barely made the shortlist by putting a styrofoam replica of the planned AESA in its nose. The same source claimed the Gripen would've been shortlisted IF it had shown capability to incorporate an AESA + Nuclear armed missile. The MiG-35 was way further back in the selection process of the MMRCA despite being a logical choice for India as they already had the MiG-29 in its inventory :rolleyes: Despite Russias [and the Manufacturers] claims that it's affordable and the best fighter in the world, India failed to see its charm, both in the MMRCA and the newly made lightweight fighter competition :)
To underestimate the Gripen is something of a general notion going around.
Switzerland: Deemed that Gripen upgrades were unsatisfactory in terms of reliability [all of which have been realized as of today in the Swedish 39E package] and had its performance downsized by a factor of 1.3.
[INDENT][INDENT] Yet, despite having the score downgraded, managed to not only meet the satisfactory levels of performance but still come out as a good choice.[/INDENT]
[/INDENT]
India: Didn't manage to meet the demands of the MMRCA [at the time], but is today the strongest alternative in the competition to complement the Tejas and the MMRCA [Rafale].
Brazil: FAB favored the Gripen over both the Rafale and the Super Bug [in terms of cost/efficiency/capabilities/needs of the FAB] whilst Lula opted for the Rafale in terms of political ties with France [i.e. Bribes]. It wasn't until Dilma went into office that the FAB had their say in the decision and resulted in the choice of the Gripen.
Ofcourse the Gripen has its drawbacks, it's not the perfect fighter for every country nor is it the perfect fighter for all situations. It lacks two engines, heavy ordenence, international fame, range with a large strike payload, it lacks political back-up from Sweden and it is relying on permission from the US to sell it. It is however THE leading fighter in areas of cost/performance, No TVC manueverability, aerodynamic low-drag design and low signature [RCS/IR] for 4.5gen fighters (Gripen A had an RCS of 0,1m2 in official verified documents released by FMV, and each evolution A -> C -> E has only recieved more signature reducing measures of which Gripen E will recieve the biggest leap yet. The MiG-35 doesn't even come close no matter how far Russian propaganda wants to spin the MiG-35. :rolleyes:
er, basically, in Indias MMRCA contest Gripen was not shortlisted, thus it lost on technical grounds. Today it may have a chance to get back as Tejas replacement, more or less, meaning a light single engine fighter (which it really is, in fact)
In Switzerland, it was dead last any way you look at it. The only thing where it was better was price. It was selected by politicians who, basically said: "for what we need, that sum will be enough".. but, basically, they conducted a competition where they wanted to replace a Porsche 911 by something better. They got propositions from two supercars and a WV bug... politicians chose the bug (barely caricatural here, I admit ;) )
In Brasil, once more, it is its price that got it chosen, nothing else
By: j_jza80
- 16th February 2017 at 17:12Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thread title says fighter. If you're talking purely air-air, Typhoon. /thread.
If you mean multirole, either Rafale or SU30 at the moment, though Typhoon will be on par with both in the not too distant future. (with each obviously having their respective strengths) If you mean interceptor, then again, Typhoon.
By: APRichelieu
- 16th February 2017 at 21:50Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
er, basically, in Indias MMRCA contest Gripen was not shortlisted, thus it lost on technical grounds. Today it may have a chance to get back as Tejas replacement, more or less, meaning a light single engine fighter (which it really is, in fact)
In Switzerland, it was dead last any way you look at it. The only thing where it was better was price. It was selected by politicians who, basically said: "for what we need, that sum will be enough".. but, basically, they conducted a competition where they wanted to replace a Porsche 911 by something better. They got propositions from two supercars and a WV bug... politicians chose the bug (barely caricatural here, I admit ;) )
In Brasil, once more, it is its price that got it chosen, nothing else
SAAB was selling Gripen E for the MMRCA. It was not available in 2011, and India wanted quick availability.
No surprise it was not shortlisted.
It is not replacing Tejas, it is complementing it (if selected).
Now it is replacing Rafale to get the numbers up,
Switzerland compared Gripen C vs competition. They selected Gripen E.
In Brazil, the Rafale did not provide enough bang for the buck, and the US screwed up by spying.
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By: Nicolas10
- 16th February 2017 at 22:00Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
SAAB was selling Gripen E for the MMRCA. It was not available in 2011, and India wanted quick availability.
India? Quick availability? lol
Switzerland compared Gripen C vs competition. They selected Gripen E.
They compared the versions tested and in round 2 they compared proposed evolutions, including what would turn out to be the Gripen E.
In Brazil, the Rafale did not provide enough bang for the buck, and the US screwed up by spying.
In Brazil they didn't have enough buck to get the bang.
Nic
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By: obligatory
- 17th February 2017 at 00:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In Brazil they didn't have enough buck to get the bang.
Nic
apparently the former president assessed brazils economy as sufficient to buy rafale,
he even went as far as proclaiming rafale had won and would be bought.
for some reason, probably a lingering bribe investigation, he decided to back off and defer the decision to next government, whom decided to hand over the decision to the industry, whom favored gripen
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By: KGB
- 17th February 2017 at 02:57Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I really don't see how that video supports your point. At around 6:20 he literally said their F-15 unit dominate Su-30 in close combat. Language barriers?. Moreover, India doesn't have Typhoon, Gripen, F-15, F-16 or F-18 either, probably didn't even have rafale at that time
Let me make sure its the right video but he does say that the su 30 was dancing with the Raptor.
Then he just says"our better pilots" fought "them again. Then we kicked their a$$ brah"
So the Raptor is a lesser trained pilot away from being in trouble against a su 30 and this is somehow a vindication for the Raptor ? I think it speaks volumes for the abilities of the su 30 and 35.
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By: KGB
- 17th February 2017 at 03:00Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
the video didnt support KGB, on contrary he said that while the teen fighters had a small window of opportunity
to nail an F-22, if the F-22 pilot was rookie, but the same pilots had an easy time doing an Su-30 in.
a few interesting quotes from that officer: F-22 can maintain 28 degree at 20k ft,
while F-15 can maintain 15 degree. the jammer coupled with mig-21 inherent low RCS made amraam useless
and the teens had to resort to guns, but su-30 was so large RCS so jamming couldnt mask it.
in previous exercises the indians had sent their best pilots and did very well against US fighters,
but when they sent their average pilots they didnt stand a chance.
the russian engines required so much maintenance so the indians didnt actually qualify to participate in red flag,
but it was overcome by sending up su-30 first so they wouldnt keep the runway busy for others,
which was fine since su-30 has such a large tank so it works out
Here Obligitory repeats his false and tiring talking points about Russian engines.
Western observers had a keen eye on the operation in Syria to see just that. To see if Russia would have engine problems. None of the sort. Jets are getting put though the ringer with no engine problems at all.
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Posts: 1,168
By: KGB
- 17th February 2017 at 03:02Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thread title says fighter. If you're talking purely air-air, Typhoon. /thread.
If you mean multirole, either Rafale or SU30 at the moment, though Typhoon will be on par with both in the not too distant future. (with each obviously having their respective strengths) If you mean interceptor, then again, Typhoon.
Why are you so confident that the Typhoon could beat the su 35 ai to air ?
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By: KGB
- 17th February 2017 at 03:03Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In Brazil they didn't have enough buck to get the bang.
Nic
apparently the former president assessed brazils economy as sufficient to buy rafale,
he even went as far as proclaiming rafale had won and would be bought.
for some reason, probably a lingering bribe investigation, he decided to back off and defer the decision to next government, whom decided to hand over the decision to the industry, whom favored gripen
Brazil is sitting on 300+ billion in forex reserves.
By: garryA
- 17th February 2017 at 04:32Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Let me make sure its the right video but he does say that the su 30 was dancing with the Raptor.
Then he just says"our better pilots" fought "them again. Then we kicked their a$$ brah"
So the Raptor is a lesser trained pilot away from being in trouble against a su 30 and this is somehow a vindication for the Raptor ? I think it speaks volumes for the abilities of the su 30 and 35.
I don't want to be mean but both you and OP really need to learn English properly
The general said when US does those exercise with India in the past, they only sent their operational pilot with not alot of experience while India often sent their best. So India was able to win more time in close combat. However, when they used pilots with similar experience level, US side was able to dominate with F-15 carrying fuel tank while Su-30 is in clean configuration ( not that i buy what he said but if you think this video even remotely close to support your point then ......well i have no word ".
He did talk about an inexperience Raptor pilot being in trouble in close combat, but it is not against Su-30 but rather against F-15/F-16 in their own exercrise , he even mentioned that how they developed tactics against TVC opponents
By: halloweene
- 17th February 2017 at 16:15Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In Brazil they didn't have enough buck to get the bang.
Nic
apparently the former president assessed brazils economy as sufficient to buy rafale,
he even went as far as proclaiming rafale had won and would be bought.
for some reason, probably a lingering bribe investigation, he decided to back off and defer the decision to next government, whom decided to hand over the decision to the industry, whom favored gripen
I'd take care about bribing during Brazil competition if i were you... SAAB is in a quite bad scandal there... Involving Lula and his son...
By: TooCool_12f
- 17th February 2017 at 16:45Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
or maybe just to "change his mind", not buy and let the next government do the opposite? ;)
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By: obligatory
- 17th February 2017 at 17:17Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
the fact that he supported rafale and went as far as proclaiming it a winner even before evaluation was
over still points toward dassault bribe, dont you think ?
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By: paralay - 16th February 2017 at 13:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Prove otherwise ;)
Let me remind you, Gripen lost in the Indian tender
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By: Y-20 Bacon - 16th February 2017 at 13:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
hmm actually rather than Typhoon, might be Rafale instead.. unlike Typhoon it already has the full Meteor and AESA set in operation and more political will to develop it (Typhoon has a lot of nice whatifs). Rafale also has the range.
Posts: 76
By: wellerocks - 16th February 2017 at 16:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Except; it didn't. ;) And you have nothing to prove it with because no official IAF documents have been released with the decisions of the MMRCA. However; statements from Indian sources involved with the work [as seen on livefist] stated that SAAB, unlike Dassault and EADS, were unable to give sufficient proof that the Gripen 39IN would be able to carry nuclear weaponry or house an AESA radar. Dassault barely made the shortlist by putting a styrofoam replica of the planned AESA in its nose. The same source claimed the Gripen would've been shortlisted IF it had shown capability to incorporate an AESA + Nuclear armed missile. The MiG-35 was way further back in the selection process of the MMRCA despite being a logical choice for India as they already had the MiG-29 in its inventory :rolleyes: Despite Russias [and the Manufacturers] claims that it's affordable and the best fighter in the world, India failed to see its charm, both in the MMRCA and the newly made lightweight fighter competition :)
To underestimate the Gripen is something of a general notion going around.
Switzerland: Deemed that Gripen upgrades were unsatisfactory in terms of reliability [all of which have been realized as of today in the Swedish 39E package] and had its performance downsized by a factor of 1.3.
[INDENT][INDENT] Yet, despite having the score downgraded, managed to not only meet the satisfactory levels of performance but still come out as a good choice.[/INDENT]
[/INDENT]
India: Didn't manage to meet the demands of the MMRCA [at the time], but is today the strongest alternative in the competition to complement the Tejas and the MMRCA [Rafale].
Brazil: FAB favored the Gripen over both the Rafale and the Super Bug [in terms of cost/efficiency/capabilities/needs of the FAB] whilst Lula opted for the Rafale in terms of political ties with France [i.e. Bribes]. It wasn't until Dilma went into office that the FAB had their say in the decision and resulted in the choice of the Gripen.
Ofcourse the Gripen has its drawbacks, it's not the perfect fighter for every country nor is it the perfect fighter for all situations. It lacks two engines, heavy ordenence, international fame, range with a large strike payload, it lacks political back-up from Sweden and it is relying on permission from the US to sell it. It is however THE leading fighter in areas of cost/performance, No TVC manueverability, aerodynamic low-drag design and low signature [RCS/IR] for 4.5gen fighters (Gripen A had an RCS of 0,1m2 in official verified documents released by FMV, and each evolution A -> C -> E has only recieved more signature reducing measures of which Gripen E will recieve the biggest leap yet. The MiG-35 doesn't even come close no matter how far Russian propaganda wants to spin the MiG-35. :rolleyes:
Posts: 3,259
By: TooCool_12f - 16th February 2017 at 17:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
er, basically, in Indias MMRCA contest Gripen was not shortlisted, thus it lost on technical grounds. Today it may have a chance to get back as Tejas replacement, more or less, meaning a light single engine fighter (which it really is, in fact)
In Switzerland, it was dead last any way you look at it. The only thing where it was better was price. It was selected by politicians who, basically said: "for what we need, that sum will be enough".. but, basically, they conducted a competition where they wanted to replace a Porsche 911 by something better. They got propositions from two supercars and a WV bug... politicians chose the bug (barely caricatural here, I admit ;) )
In Brasil, once more, it is its price that got it chosen, nothing else
Posts: 1,542
By: j_jza80 - 16th February 2017 at 17:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thread title says fighter. If you're talking purely air-air, Typhoon. /thread.
If you mean multirole, either Rafale or SU30 at the moment, though Typhoon will be on par with both in the not too distant future. (with each obviously having their respective strengths) If you mean interceptor, then again, Typhoon.
Posts: 1,344
By: paralay - 16th February 2017 at 17:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
[ATTACH=CONFIG]251396[/ATTACH]
EF-2000 domestic motor + domestic missiles
Rafale domestic motor + domestic missiles
MiG-35 domestic motor + domestic missiles
Gripen foreign motor + foreign missiles
Findings "combat potential" built on the calculation, it not propaganda ;)
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By: Sintra - 16th February 2017 at 18:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well, beautifull undoutebly, but they get all dirty...
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By: Al. - 16th February 2017 at 21:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
naysayer
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By: APRichelieu - 16th February 2017 at 21:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
SAAB was selling Gripen E for the MMRCA. It was not available in 2011, and India wanted quick availability.
No surprise it was not shortlisted.
It is not replacing Tejas, it is complementing it (if selected).
Now it is replacing Rafale to get the numbers up,
Switzerland compared Gripen C vs competition. They selected Gripen E.
In Brazil, the Rafale did not provide enough bang for the buck, and the US screwed up by spying.
Posts: 4,472
By: Nicolas10 - 16th February 2017 at 22:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
India? Quick availability? lol
They compared the versions tested and in round 2 they compared proposed evolutions, including what would turn out to be the Gripen E.
In Brazil they didn't have enough buck to get the bang.
Nic
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By: obligatory - 17th February 2017 at 00:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In Brazil they didn't have enough buck to get the bang.
Nic
apparently the former president assessed brazils economy as sufficient to buy rafale,
he even went as far as proclaiming rafale had won and would be bought.
for some reason, probably a lingering bribe investigation, he decided to back off and defer the decision to next government, whom decided to hand over the decision to the industry, whom favored gripen
Posts: 1,168
By: KGB - 17th February 2017 at 02:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Let me make sure its the right video but he does say that the su 30 was dancing with the Raptor.
Then he just says"our better pilots" fought "them again. Then we kicked their a$$ brah"
So the Raptor is a lesser trained pilot away from being in trouble against a su 30 and this is somehow a vindication for the Raptor ? I think it speaks volumes for the abilities of the su 30 and 35.
Posts: 1,168
By: KGB - 17th February 2017 at 03:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Here Obligitory repeats his false and tiring talking points about Russian engines.
Western observers had a keen eye on the operation in Syria to see just that. To see if Russia would have engine problems. None of the sort. Jets are getting put though the ringer with no engine problems at all.
Posts: 1,168
By: KGB - 17th February 2017 at 03:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Why are you so confident that the Typhoon could beat the su 35 ai to air ?
Posts: 1,168
By: KGB - 17th February 2017 at 03:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Brazil is sitting on 300+ billion in forex reserves.
Posts: 1,081
By: garryA - 17th February 2017 at 04:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I don't want to be mean but both you and OP really need to learn English properly
The general said when US does those exercise with India in the past, they only sent their operational pilot with not alot of experience while India often sent their best. So India was able to win more time in close combat. However, when they used pilots with similar experience level, US side was able to dominate with F-15 carrying fuel tank while Su-30 is in clean configuration ( not that i buy what he said but if you think this video even remotely close to support your point then ......well i have no word ".
He did talk about an inexperience Raptor pilot being in trouble in close combat, but it is not against Su-30 but rather against F-15/F-16 in their own exercrise , he even mentioned that how they developed tactics against TVC opponents
Posts: 4,168
By: halloweene - 17th February 2017 at 16:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'd take care about bribing during Brazil competition if i were you... SAAB is in a quite bad scandal there... Involving Lula and his son...
Posts: 145
By: APRichelieu - 17th February 2017 at 16:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So SAAB is accused to have bribed Lula to buy the Rafale, which he publicly supported?
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By: TooCool_12f - 17th February 2017 at 16:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
or maybe just to "change his mind", not buy and let the next government do the opposite? ;)
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By: obligatory - 17th February 2017 at 17:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
the fact that he supported rafale and went as far as proclaiming it a winner even before evaluation was
over still points toward dassault bribe, dont you think ?