By: TR1
- 29th April 2017 at 04:59Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Marshal Shaposhnikov @ Dalzavod. The scale of the work is evident- search and fire control radars removed, Ak-100, turbines, and Rastrub launchers visable on the pier.
By: totoro
- 29th April 2017 at 07:08Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Speaking of Sierra, I read it was first russian SSN (not SSBN) to use natural circulation option for cooling the reactor. Seeing how 971 was developed almost alongside it and launched a year later, did 971 use it as well? What sources do we have to settle that question?
By: JangBoGo
- 4th May 2017 at 10:01Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The work progress at Zevzda looks very slow.
One of my favorite yard is Zaliv and if I had my way this is the yard I would have given priorioty. Its a yard with beautiful layout and it would do good to have 2-4 more gantry cranes for its current twin 400m slipways. Upto four 11356/22350 can be integrated simultaneously on those slipways, without using the main 360m drydock.
If they want to built a carrier, they have got Zaliv as an option. But I would prefer the yard to churn out 11356/22350 (& 23560) once the colossal mess that was/is the gas turbines is sorted out.
By: JangBoGo
- 4th May 2017 at 10:35Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Pella is probably among the yards with a clean layout due to it being completely rebuilt and new. The only thing I dont like about this private yard is that like the other greedy leaches (Severnya) in the Russian ship building industry, they too have started to bite more than what they can chew (inside Russia). What they need to do is churn out the corvettes and other ships in specified time and cost and not become another greedy entity to grab all the contracts of the MoD even when their facility doesnt support builfing larger ships.
Couple of snaps of what Pella looked at when creating their new facility.
By: JangBoGo
- 4th May 2017 at 10:40Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Regarding the start of production of gas turbinbes in Russia without Ukranian components.
What happened to the Quote function in reply??
So what Saturn seems to have done is reverse engineered the Ukranian Engine of GTE M70FRU, M70FRU-2, M70FRU-P M90FR, GTA M35R and M70 type ?
Seems this was the quickest way to over come the current embargo where practically most rusian ships depend on Ukraine engine
Btw, I dont inderstand why they still keep the "U" in the product designation. They took away the "U" from the Russian-Ukranian M90FRU to make it M90FR for a completely Russian manufactured M90 gad turbine.
By: Austin
- 4th May 2017 at 15:20Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Unless you hear from official sources the VLS Shtil-1 may be SaRH guidance.
Atleast for BUK-M3 we know from official communication it has ARH seeker and there is no real evidence to suggest the VLS Shtil-1 on Ships is the same missile as on BUK-M3
By: Austin
- 4th May 2017 at 15:22Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The "U" in product designation could very well be Upgrade and not Ukraine ....They simply reverse engineered/Upgraded the exisiting Engine , I think its smart things to do then get to build from scratch. May be it might just be better fuel effecient than original ukraine engine but I am just guessing that.
They also mentioned of 5th Generation Engine for Naval program , Any more information on that program ?
By: TR1
- 4th May 2017 at 22:08Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Jang:
-There is serious money that has gone missing @ Zvezda, don't be shocked by how behind it is.
-Zaliv seems nice yes, but it won't be making frigates anytime soon, as they have not built anything military of note in many years. Let's see how they deal with the corvettes they have been assigned.
-IDK if you have seen this, but best photoreport of Pella so far: http://kuleshovoleg.livejournal.com/513762.html
Austin:
-We know both use 9M317M family, and from videos it is obvious the missile body is identical, only remaining question was the guidance employed: http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2576718.html BMPD notes that the delayed with VLS Shtil acceptance have been 9M317MA active-seeker missile related. To me it is logical, that the Buk-M3/Shtil use a common missile down to the seeker.
Perhaps it was initially (or Grigorovich at least) fitted with a SAHR 9M317M that relies purely on the missile directors on the ship.
By: Austin
- 5th May 2017 at 06:14Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
TR1 , I read that bmpd write up and the reference to Active Seeker , Lets wait this official confirmation we might come to know if ARH VLS Shtil-1 exisit atleast by IMDS 2017.
The capability offered by BUK-M3 and Shtil-1 VLS Interceptor Missile are drastically different atleast what has been advertised so far for the latter.
By: JangBoGo
- 5th May 2017 at 19:44Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
^ Ausitn, good article.
Few details and summary regarding the new production and testing facility @ NPO Saturn. Corrections and additions are always welcome.
NPO Saturn had already done much work earlier (also depends on how much funding was provided) and was continuing the work on M90FRU in collaboration with the Ukranians.
August 21, 2008, Rybinsk. NPO Saturn has completed development work of the second marine gas-turbine engine - M70FRU – and is planning to subject it to the official tests in September this year in Rybinsk.
NPO Saturn is the sole Russian company that develops and manufactures gas-turbine engines for the main propulsion systems of the surface ships.
The first Russian marine gas-turbine engine M75RU developed and manufactured by NPO Saturn successfully passed official tests in November 2006.
So thats how the designation looked prior to the much needed enlightenment.
With the dawn of wisdom back in 2014, the target was set for Dec 2017 for a complete Made-in-Russia production and testing facility and its now almost complete.
Gas turbines (GTE)
M70FRU - 12,000hp - 14000hp M70FRU-2 - 6,000hp - 7,000hp (most likely the M75RU had a designation change) M70FRU-R - hp? (Its probably to replace the existing Ukrainain GTEs) M90FR - 27,500hp
^ Russians, afaik, doesn't quote two power rating as per convenience like their western counterparts, they mostly specify the power@shaft. So the hp rating you mostly see in a Russian specsheet/brochure are the shp.
Gas turbine plant/unit (GTA)
M35-R1 - (probably M70FRU-2?) M35-R2 - (probably M70FRU?... probably replaces the earlier M27) M55R - (M90FR) M70R - (M70FRU-R, likely for replacing the existing Ukrainian GTAs when needed)
NPO Saturn now consists of two new full fledged test facilities.
No.1 - upto 15WM (for M70FRU/2/R)
No.2 - upto 40MW (for M90FR and likely future variants)
Now, lets hope that the guys will start ordering the 11356 and 22350 with M55R units. Even if they cut the first steel now, it will take around 2-3 years for the hull to be ready for installation of these units. So no need to waste anymore time.
By: JangBoGo
- 5th May 2017 at 20:34Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Austin,
What you are saying is true and so does the point that the 9M317 and variants were limited in its range most liklely due to the illuminator guiding it. What I suspected earlier was probably the 11356 was using a new and much more powerful illuminator for guiding the 9M317. I was basing it on the range creep that we saw happening with the naval missile. If I'm not wrong, it started off from 32 Km to 50Km and now to 70Km. But its secondary anti-ship range remained almost constant at 25Km due to the horizon limits.
The new Buk-M3 missile has got a higher spec in terms of performance and what they can engage compared to the earlier missile. But it would probably be limited to the 50Km as the current 9M317 if not for the active seeker and/or a new longer range illuminator/guidance unit on the ship.
TR1,
True that Zaliv have not built any naval ships in recent years, but I want to be optimistic about them delivering the new corvettes on time and inside budget. These are likely the initial orders to put Zaliv back on track and more orders are likely to come if the leaches in the industry doesn't grab it through their contacts.
By: TR1
- 5th May 2017 at 23:23Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The 9M317M is basically a completely new missile compared to 9M317- just look @ the body and dimensions, quite different.
The situation with the two relevant Crimean shipyards (Zaliv and More) currently is as follows:
Pella is the primary investor into More, and from the 7 Project 22800s they currently were contracted, they are making 3 @ More. They have More's capacity essentially rented out until December 2020.
Zelenodolgsk also has temporary control over Zaliv, and apparently the first of their contracted 5 Project 22800s was laid down without an official ceremony @ Zaliv.
By: TR1
- 6th May 2017 at 00:11Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And some not-so-good news about the youngest destroyer in the fleet, Admiral Chabanenko. The ship entered the reserve 4.5 years ago, and has been @ the 35th Ship Repair Plant (a subsidiary of Zvezd) for 3.5 years, and the repair work does not appear to have made great progress.
By: JangBoGo
- 6th May 2017 at 18:18Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
How can the Russian navy thread be without those navy cats....here is one Russian Navy cat named Sergey Ivanovich onboard his ship Moskva. These guys always bring smiles...
Posts: 9,579
By: TR1 - 29th April 2017 at 04:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Marshal Shaposhnikov @ Dalzavod. The scale of the work is evident- search and fire control radars removed, Ak-100, turbines, and Rastrub launchers visable on the pier.
Posts: 9,579
By: TR1 - 29th April 2017 at 06:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Although the Karp news are sad, some otherwise good tidings for the VMF SSN fleet as it continues to recover.:
http://flotprom.ru/2017/%D0%97%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B4%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%BA%D0%B08/
Leopard, the first 971M modernization from Zvezdochka should be handed over to the fleet in 2018.
http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12121133@egNews
And Vepr, which is being repaired @ Nerpa (subsidiary of Zvezdochka) will return to the fleet this year.
Posts: 1,010
By: totoro - 29th April 2017 at 07:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Speaking of Sierra, I read it was first russian SSN (not SSBN) to use natural circulation option for cooling the reactor. Seeing how 971 was developed almost alongside it and launched a year later, did 971 use it as well? What sources do we have to settle that question?
Posts: 9,579
By: TR1 - 29th April 2017 at 21:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The expanded Zvezda shipyard in the far east:
Posts: 1,482
By: JangBoGo - 4th May 2017 at 10:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The work progress at Zevzda looks very slow.
One of my favorite yard is Zaliv and if I had my way this is the yard I would have given priorioty. Its a yard with beautiful layout and it would do good to have 2-4 more gantry cranes for its current twin 400m slipways. Upto four 11356/22350 can be integrated simultaneously on those slipways, without using the main 360m drydock.
If they want to built a carrier, they have got Zaliv as an option. But I would prefer the yard to churn out 11356/22350 (& 23560) once the colossal mess that was/is the gas turbines is sorted out.
Posts: 1,482
By: JangBoGo - 4th May 2017 at 10:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Pella is probably among the yards with a clean layout due to it being completely rebuilt and new. The only thing I dont like about this private yard is that like the other greedy leaches (Severnya) in the Russian ship building industry, they too have started to bite more than what they can chew (inside Russia). What they need to do is churn out the corvettes and other ships in specified time and cost and not become another greedy entity to grab all the contracts of the MoD even when their facility doesnt support builfing larger ships.
Couple of snaps of what Pella looked at when creating their new facility.
Posts: 1,482
By: JangBoGo - 4th May 2017 at 10:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Regarding the start of production of gas turbinbes in Russia without Ukranian components.
What happened to the Quote function in reply??
Btw, I dont inderstand why they still keep the "U" in the product designation. They took away the "U" from the Russian-Ukranian M90FRU to make it M90FR for a completely Russian manufactured M90 gad turbine.
Posts: 1,482
By: JangBoGo - 4th May 2017 at 11:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So finally we get to see the new Shtil-I VLS with 9M317MA in action and its the active seeker which have given this missile its 70Km range.
The ripple fire was simply too good that I couldn't resist creating a gif from the video.
Posts: 6,186
By: Austin - 4th May 2017 at 15:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Unless you hear from official sources the VLS Shtil-1 may be SaRH guidance.
Atleast for BUK-M3 we know from official communication it has ARH seeker and there is no real evidence to suggest the VLS Shtil-1 on Ships is the same missile as on BUK-M3
Posts: 6,186
By: Austin - 4th May 2017 at 15:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The "U" in product designation could very well be Upgrade and not Ukraine ....They simply reverse engineered/Upgraded the exisiting Engine , I think its smart things to do then get to build from scratch. May be it might just be better fuel effecient than original ukraine engine but I am just guessing that.
They also mentioned of 5th Generation Engine for Naval program , Any more information on that program ?
Posts: 9,579
By: TR1 - 4th May 2017 at 22:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Jang:
-There is serious money that has gone missing @ Zvezda, don't be shocked by how behind it is.
-Zaliv seems nice yes, but it won't be making frigates anytime soon, as they have not built anything military of note in many years. Let's see how they deal with the corvettes they have been assigned.
-IDK if you have seen this, but best photoreport of Pella so far: http://kuleshovoleg.livejournal.com/513762.html
Austin:
-We know both use 9M317M family, and from videos it is obvious the missile body is identical, only remaining question was the guidance employed:
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2576718.html BMPD notes that the delayed with VLS Shtil acceptance have been 9M317MA active-seeker missile related. To me it is logical, that the Buk-M3/Shtil use a common missile down to the seeker.
Perhaps it was initially (or Grigorovich at least) fitted with a SAHR 9M317M that relies purely on the missile directors on the ship.
Posts: 6,186
By: Austin - 5th May 2017 at 06:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
TR1 , I read that bmpd write up and the reference to Active Seeker , Lets wait this official confirmation we might come to know if ARH VLS Shtil-1 exisit atleast by IMDS 2017.
The capability offered by BUK-M3 and Shtil-1 VLS Interceptor Missile are drastically different atleast what has been advertised so far for the latter.
Posts: 6,186
By: Austin - 5th May 2017 at 11:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Any one access to Janes for full article ?
NPO Saturn launches powerplant production for Russian Navy
http://www.janes.com/article/70076/npo-saturn-launches-powerplant-production-for-russian-navy
Posts: 6,186
By: Austin - 5th May 2017 at 11:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Found this interesting write up comparing Ukrainian GT Engine and Comparing with what Saturn managed to develop
http://mil.today/2017/Science8/
Posts: 1,482
By: JangBoGo - 5th May 2017 at 19:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
^ Ausitn, good article.
Few details and summary regarding the new production and testing facility @ NPO Saturn. Corrections and additions are always welcome.
NPO Saturn had already done much work earlier (also depends on how much funding was provided) and was continuing the work on M90FRU in collaboration with the Ukranians.
http://www.npo-saturn.ru/?rssid=1224074863&sat=6&slang=1
Gas turbines, the specs in the UEC link need not have to be the latest.
M75RU - 6,000hp - 7,000hp
M70FRU - 12,000hp - 14,000hp
M90FRU - 27,500hp
So thats how the designation looked prior to the much needed enlightenment.
With the dawn of wisdom back in 2014, the target was set for Dec 2017 for a complete Made-in-Russia production and testing facility and its now almost complete.
Gas turbines (GTE)
M70FRU - 12,000hp - 14000hp
M70FRU-2 - 6,000hp - 7,000hp (most likely the M75RU had a designation change)
M70FRU-R - hp? (Its probably to replace the existing Ukrainain GTEs)
M90FR - 27,500hp
^ Russians, afaik, doesn't quote two power rating as per convenience like their western counterparts, they mostly specify the power@shaft. So the hp rating you mostly see in a Russian specsheet/brochure are the shp.
Gas turbine plant/unit (GTA)
M35-R1 - (probably M70FRU-2?)
M35-R2 - (probably M70FRU?... probably replaces the earlier M27)
M55R - (M90FR)
M70R - (M70FRU-R, likely for replacing the existing Ukrainian GTAs when needed)
NPO Saturn now consists of two new full fledged test facilities.
No.1 - upto 15WM (for M70FRU/2/R)
No.2 - upto 40MW (for M90FR and likely future variants)
Now, lets hope that the guys will start ordering the 11356 and 22350 with M55R units. Even if they cut the first steel now, it will take around 2-3 years for the hull to be ready for installation of these units. So no need to waste anymore time.
Posts: 1,482
By: JangBoGo - 5th May 2017 at 20:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Austin,
What you are saying is true and so does the point that the 9M317 and variants were limited in its range most liklely due to the illuminator guiding it. What I suspected earlier was probably the 11356 was using a new and much more powerful illuminator for guiding the 9M317. I was basing it on the range creep that we saw happening with the naval missile. If I'm not wrong, it started off from 32 Km to 50Km and now to 70Km. But its secondary anti-ship range remained almost constant at 25Km due to the horizon limits.
The new Buk-M3 missile has got a higher spec in terms of performance and what they can engage compared to the earlier missile. But it would probably be limited to the 50Km as the current 9M317 if not for the active seeker and/or a new longer range illuminator/guidance unit on the ship.
TR1,
True that Zaliv have not built any naval ships in recent years, but I want to be optimistic about them delivering the new corvettes on time and inside budget. These are likely the initial orders to put Zaliv back on track and more orders are likely to come if the leaches in the industry doesn't grab it through their contacts.
Posts: 9,579
By: TR1 - 5th May 2017 at 23:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The 9M317M is basically a completely new missile compared to 9M317- just look @ the body and dimensions, quite different.
The situation with the two relevant Crimean shipyards (Zaliv and More) currently is as follows:
Pella is the primary investor into More, and from the 7 Project 22800s they currently were contracted, they are making 3 @ More. They have More's capacity essentially rented out until December 2020.
Zelenodolgsk also has temporary control over Zaliv, and apparently the first of their contracted 5 Project 22800s was laid down without an official ceremony @ Zaliv.
Posts: 9,579
By: TR1 - 6th May 2017 at 00:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And some not-so-good news about the youngest destroyer in the fleet, Admiral Chabanenko. The ship entered the reserve 4.5 years ago, and has been @ the 35th Ship Repair Plant (a subsidiary of Zvezd) for 3.5 years, and the repair work does not appear to have made great progress.
http://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/163783.html
Posts: 452
By: Stonewall - 6th May 2017 at 13:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Russian Navy’s Project 11356 frigate Admiral Essen joins Mediterranean task force
http://navaltoday.com/2017/05/05/russian-navys-project-11356-frigate-admiral-essen-joins-mediterranean-task-force/
Posts: 1,482
By: JangBoGo - 6th May 2017 at 18:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
How can the Russian navy thread be without those navy cats....here is one Russian Navy cat named Sergey Ivanovich onboard his ship Moskva. These guys always bring smiles...