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By: - 10th February 2001 at 01:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Malaysia vs Singapore
Singapore is a small island nation and if these two countries ever did go to war Malaysia could easily put a naval blockade around Singapore and wait them out. I don't think Singapore has many F-16s based in Singapore since they are based all around the world for training... I think Malaysia pilots would come out on top but Malaysia would loose some aircraft...
By: - 10th February 2001 at 03:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Malaysia vs Singapore
LAST EDITED ON 10-Feb-01 AT 03:45 AM (GMT)[p]
1Politicly both countries will not engage in combat,it ain't worth it and it destablise the whole area. The key word here is ASEAN unity which everyone in the region is working hard on it.
2Singapore was once Malaysia for a few years ,then it opt out cause policy diffrences ,There is no conflict then where Malaysian Forces were FAR SUPERIOR ,do you expect it now?
3Why such capable defences ,It is best to play safe.
4 Anyway Malaysia and Singapore is historicly,culturely,economicly,militarly,politicly linked ,in different degrees, but to such an extent that a billegerent situation will not arise ,unless some really really unforseen situation happens.
Anyway why russian equipment=18Mig29,value for money,more neutral status,Not 1 source of equipment,and it is damn good againt Sing AF F16A
which don't have BVR and HMS with advance AAM such as Archers
Though the Sing are quick to redress their quality with something like 40+ F16C/Dblock(forget,but it is a late model) with Amraams:)
Ok an academic discussion on this subject
Singapore forces is based on pre emptive strike doctrine ,hit him hard when he is mustering his forces aka the Isrealis ops (Singapore forces learn a lot from the Isrealis,they were invited to help out with training right from the early days)
Anyway Singapore forces are trained for ops in Malaysia ,with their AMX 13 light tanks spearheading the offensive
Current tank balance between them
350 AMX light tanks to 20 something scorpion light tanks
But Malaysia has advantages to its side
1Terrain
2larger population= larger Army
3Artillery in Johore can hit Singapore airfields
(I know Sing counter battery is good but Johore is big compare to sing plenty of place for cover
4AMX 13 can be destroyed by the ERYX misslie without much problems ,I think the old anti tank weapons such as Carl Gustalf can also stop them in their tracks,coupled with ideal defensive country,Jungles lining roads ,and then the major cities,FIBUA,They should stop the singaporeans without much problems(The weapons I stated are available to the TD ,tentera darat)
As for the airforces, Sing AF IS Bigger quantitively ,though in terms of pilot quality more or less equal but the thing is If Johore is not taken by Sing forces ,Malaysian forces using artillery can pound the airfields rendering sing AF into a paper tiger!
Thats the catch
By: - 10th February 2001 at 07:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Malaysia vs Singapore
This one's almost as absurd as India vs. Australia!!! :)
"I know these two countrys are supposed to be allies, and they had (have?) a military pact together with Australia and New Zeland for the defence of the Malaya peninsula"
Singapore and Malaysia are both signatories to the Five Powers Alliance, which still exists. The other signatories are UK, Australia and New Zealand. It was formed at a time when communist insurgencies into Malaysia and Indonesian aggression towards Malaysia was at its greatest.
"RAAF F-18s together with Singaorean SAMs were stationed at Butterworth. However it is to my understanding that there has been ongoing tension between the Malaysian and the Singaporeans for some time now"
RAAF F/A-18s have never been stationed at RAAFB/RMAFB Butterworth. The last RAAF units to be stationed (permanently) there were 76SQN Mirage IIIOs. They left in the mid-80s. However, the RAAF still uses Butterworth regurlarly and exercises regularly with RMAF Mig-29Ns, both with F/A-18s and F-111s (an F-111G was unfortunately lost whilst on exercise in Malaysia in 1999).
"Furthermore, with the RMAF getting MiG-29/F/A-18s, with the possibility of obtaining R-77 BVRs, Singapore asked to get AMRAAMS."
Singapore asked for and has in fact paid for AMRAAMs. However, the Singapore will not receive the AIM-120s until RMAF Mig-29Ns receive the R-77 or other AR BVR missile.
The RMAF would do well to get Su-30MKM, but they are not needed, and would simply add to an already large number of combat types for such a small airforce (Mig-29N/UN, F/A-18D, F-5/F and Hawk 100/200). The RMAF would do better to get more Mig-29Ns or Mig-29SMTs and perform the SMT upgrade to it's existing Mig-29Ns.
Singapore can afford the F-22, but only just, and it would really take a very large chunk out of the defence budget. Also, I doubt whether the US would release such an aircraft for sale into such a region. JSFs would suffice, as would Rafales.
MinMiester
By: - 10th February 2001 at 07:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
J33Nelson
"Singapore is a small island nation and if these two countries ever did go to war Malaysia could easily put a naval blockade around Singapore and wait them out."
What you have make absolutely no sense. Malaysia's navy is very weak, same goes for Singapore's, they are both very much brown water navies, suitable for anti-pirating and EEZ protection only (as well as catching illegal immigrants from Indonesia). However, the RSAF is far superior - at the moment anyway - to the RMAF, and the RSAF would quickly establish air-superiority over the Malay peninsula. Now, i can't see Malaysia naval blockading Singapore when it doesn't have air-superiority, so a naval blockade is out of the question.
"I don't think Singapore has many F-16s based in Singapore since they are based all around the world for training... I think Malaysia pilots would come out on top but Malaysia would loose some aircraft..."
Oh, so in the event of a conflict, Singapore would make sure most of it's F-16s stayed in France and the US??? I DON'T THINK SO. The F-16s would be back on Singaporean soil within 24 hours, and Malaysia lacks the ability to inflict a powerful strike on Singaporean air bases in a first strike basis (note: RMAF lacks any sort of AEW platform, Singapore operates several E-2Cs i believe, and did at one point look at acquiring 4 E-3Ds).
MinMiester
By: - 10th February 2001 at 08:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Stormrider
Singapore has a very well trained and well equipped Army. One of the first things Singapore would do, i would think, would be to INVADE Johor. Singapore's army operates:
- AMX13SM-1 Light Tank
- M113 APC
- FH2000
- FH88
- Giat 105
In the event of a conflict, RSAF F-16s would easily achieve air-superiority against the 17 RMAF Mig-29s and 8 F/A-18Ds (which are actually used solely as strike aircraft), and RSAF A-4s, as well as RMAF Hawk 200s, would make a ground campaign hell for both sides. However, Singapore's AH-64Ds give their ground forces a decisive edge. Let's just say the jungles of southern Malaysia would be very bloody.
Singapore's army is very well trained, compulsory military service is seen as an honour in Singapore, and Singaporean commandoes are one of the best units in the world.
Let me finally reiterate that SUCH A CONFLICT IS ALMOST AS ABSURD AS INDIA vs. AUSTRALIA. Singapore and Malaysia are very close economically, and a war would be far too damaging economically, and would only weaken both sides at a time when Indonesia looks increasingly unpredictable. However, ASEAN, at least the 5 original members (Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Thailand and Brunei) is a very cohesive grouping.
MinMiester
By: - 10th February 2001 at 10:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Stormrider
LAST EDITED ON 10-Feb-01 AT 10:14 AM (GMT)[p]Hmm not bad min,you can see the meanings from My Points
Though I like to put it in a less inflammatory way
Though I must say a typical Malaysian Infantry is more or less equal to its Sing counterpart, though I must add he is familiar with his home ground,
wise in the way of the forest , have more knowledge on his urban surroundings and he is well equipped with good infantry equipment.btw just a side note The Malaysian army is made up mainly of men not 2 year conscript boys
Anyway I would like to add militarily the Malaysian Gov is not afraid of Sing (however how well equipped) cause
1 we all know they can capture ground, they could not hold it in the long term
2 the Muslim world will be so enraged that funds will pour in and will exert tremendous
Political pressure in favor of Malaysia,(expect volunteers and even PAF volunteers)
even Indonesia will help Malaysia covertly
3 There is west Malaysia, which not vulnerable to any Sing surface attack In other words in worst possible scenario a place to regroup
4 So when the Malaysians take a more serious stance on defence
Expect its AF capability to grow at least 4 times ,(though this would happen in W malaysia ) whereras Sing combat capability could not Increase in a way that can rival Malaysia cos of the small population approx 5 against 20 millon
5 in other word long term survival cannot be expected for Sing
6 Anyway as I said before just an Academic, Theoretical discussion on a hypothetical scenario (man I have to go in details for min to understand this:)
7 Just a side note current Malaysian spending is about maintaining core capability roughly 1 sqdn for every role .
8 Logistically Sing is no match for malaysia
As for air superiority, no Johore no airfields or a stretch of road for take off,
Can they capture Johore, Malaysian Army is proven in jungle warfare, and successfully dealt with a guerrilla force and in turn can also fight like guerrillas no easy opfor
And to top it off more men and can expect more BCR and supplies (Sing is limited to seaborne supplies and As a small island have to import everything ,even water!(that from Malaysia )
Anyway Politically as I said previously it would not happen ,but absurd ??
The word is not right for it ,why cause there is a Sing Forces and ATM (Angkatan Tentera Malaysia) If its absurd then this institutions is also absurd .
regards
stormrider
(anyway always like to keep it short,more of a recrational type here:))
By: - 10th February 2001 at 10:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Stormrider
You have forgotten the fact that Malaysia is not a muslim nation by name. It is secular, as 30% are ethnic Chinese (mostly Buddhists) and another 5% are ethnic Indians (mostly Hindu). You may find Malaysia-Chinese sympathising more with Singapore than with their own Government, which pretty much applies state-sanctioned racism to entry to universities etc. I don't think too many Malaysian-Chinese would be unhappy about a Singaporean army "freeing" them, as they suffer much from persecution within their own country. Malaysia may well receive support from other islamic nations, but don't expect Malays to receive support form Malaysian Chinese withing their own country. I wouldn't be surprised to see China get involved also, China has a very strong relationship with Singapore (ethnically and language wise, they are the same, apart from the communist thing), and many Malaysia-Chinese still think of China as "home".
"Malaysian Army is proven in jungle warfare"
If you are talking about the Malayan emergency, well, you'll find that Malaysia was not doing well at all until Australian ground troops were inserted. Wouldn't described the Malaysian Army as "proven" in jungle warfare. They are a well-trained army, but the training program for the Malaysia Defence Forces remains below that of the Singaporean Defence Forces. It all comes down to money, and at the moment, the Singapore Defence Forces have more of it (expect this to change).
MinMiester
By: - 10th February 2001 at 12:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Stormrider
LAST EDITED ON 10-Feb-01 AT 01:36 PM (GMT)[p]LAST EDITED ON 10-Feb-01 AT 01:16 PM (GMT)
Not bad min ,you do know something :)
Oh well duhh....
1It will always be a Muslim in charge.
2There is law saying Malay=Muslim has special treatment ,all malays are muslims.(well they are the indigenous people)
3There are muslim courts ,syariah for muslim family matters
(anyway non muslims use civil court cause they are not muslims)
4And there is a religious department to handle muslim laws ,again the others are not included cause they are not muslims!
get it?
How much more 'muslim' you want?
Well the chinese in Malaysia well you are right ,in a way they are sympathtic to singapore .but if Singapore came charging the other way well,my bet is they will stay out of it .(anyway blowing all the causeways is enough:)) As for presecution??
No ,Special treatment to help the indigenous yup,many are quite poor)
As for Aussie troops yeah they are quite good,but if the Malays are fighting against them .They won't last long in the jungles.
Anyway the credit should go to all commonwealth troops plus the decisive politcs of the Brits ,get support from the locals(by giving independence and a line on the constitution favoring the malays) ,and part as friends!well after this measures ,things did look good right
As for training well.........
My Personal view ,the Singaporeans are more class room
The Malaysians out in the fields and jungles (though their Fibua traning is less for the time being)
By: - 10th February 2001 at 13:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Stormrider
"Not bad min ,you do know something"
I know more than you think about Malaysia Storm...
MinMiester
By: - 10th February 2001 at 20:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Malaysia vs Singapore
Any of you guys have access to WAPJ from Summer 2000? It has an Air Power Analysis on Malaysia & Singapore. I'll try to post some of the salient points later.
By: - 10th February 2001 at 21:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Malaysia vs Singapore
Both countries are very well equipped. Malaysia has F/A-18's, MiG-29's, Hawk's, and a A-4's. Singapore has F-16's, A-4's and F-5's. I think Singapore would have the edge because they have those planes and then KC-135's, E-2's and AH-64's. The F-5S/T aircraft are AIM-120 equipped as are the F-16's. The A-4's are also the ultimate standard for the venerable Skyhawk and would give a good account in air-to-air combat against the similar performing Hawk 200's and Malaysia's own A-4's. Don't get me wrong though, Malaysia would not be an easy victory for Singapore and Singapore would take heavy losses. The war wouldn't be worth it for either side. Lets hope they never go to war because I like the fact that there are so many air forces around the world now that are well equipped and operate such a wide variety of types.
By: - 10th February 2001 at 23:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Malaysia vs Singapore
Min, I see you took it to attack almost every point I made. Malaysia and Singapore are protected in part by an agreement they have with Australia and New Zealand that guarantees mutual support if faced by outside agression. During the cold war Malaysia was host to forces from Australia in the form of Hornet interceptors while Singapore provided a squadron of Bloodhoud Mk.2 from its own Air Defence Command up untill the early 90's. I don't know what the situation is right now...
Sinapores armed forces although small by world standards are without a doubt one of the most formidable defence forces in the region. The points made by Sotrm are quite amouzing to military history, I will limit my coments to this:
larger geography+larger popullation+larger forces+muslim bucks = superiority? Yea right, tell that to the Israelis...
The RSAF has an adequate fighter force made up of late model F-16s (wich would be deployed to Singapore in an emergency), backed up by Super Skyhawks and F-5S's. Plus tankers and AEW... Now add an excellent CAS force provided by Super Puma assault choppers, Apache Longbow attack hellos, Chinooks and a few armed Fennecs for armed scouting and anti-APC work. Come on!
By: - 11th February 2001 at 00:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Malaysia vs Singapore
"Min, I see you took it to attack almost every point I made"
Not attack ogini, correct :)
"During the cold war Malaysia was host to forces from Australia in the form of Hornet interceptors"
Once again, i reiterate that Malaysian airbases have only ever played host to RAAF Hornets on exercise. 76SQN Mirage IIIOs were based at RAAFB/RMAFB Butterworth, but when the squadron was disbanded at the end of the Mirage's career in RAAF service (mid '80s), permanent Australian combat aircraft precense in the Malaysia ended. RAAF Hornets are based at 2OCU, 3SQN and 77SQN at RAAFB Williamtown and 75SQN at RAAFB Tindal.
You have backed up my arguments against Storm's somewhat limited understanding of this scenario.
MinMiester
By: - 11th February 2001 at 01:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Stormrider
LAST EDITED ON 11-Feb-01 AT 01:23 AM (GMT)[p]Indeed ,you do know much of the real situation at hand in this subject.
Regards
Stormrider
(anyway I always like to keep it short,I am not one of the more dedicated guys here)
By: - 11th February 2001 at 01:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Malaysia vs Singapore
LAST EDITED ON 11-Feb-01 AT 02:19 AM (GMT)[p]
ogini
Man do I have to go into details here?
Arab situation = This situation :) :) :) :) :):):)
Anyway if you didn't notice in terms of trainng our arab friends are way behind our Isrealis friends
(some one actually drive a tank battalion thru to clear a mine field)
And do you know anything about terrain!
And do you anything about short term success and long time survival
And it is so:):):) to compare this situation to that situation!
Btw your simplification of my points is already out of my orginal meanings and context!
Anyway a side note Israel defeated arab but a small guerilla force HAMAS defeated Israel (in terms of acheiving objectives)
So David indeed have slain Goliath again!
No force in the world is invincible
man no time to start a remedial class:)
Man I also notice your stupid error but I didn't bother about it
And I also laid a test for all of you to see how well you all know the situation :)
IT is East Malaysia(Sabah and Sarawak) that is Invincible to surface attack.No one corrected me ! Which there is always someone to correct(usually I don't correct unless it flamed me)
Sing Navy is to small to land troops
(Franky I like to keep it short,got other things to attend to,anyway I guess I dun like to show off too much)
regards
stormrider
By: - 11th February 2001 at 06:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Malaysia vs Singapore
Correct Elpalmer. ASEAN is a very cohesive economic bonding. In the first half of 2000, there was a proposal to join the ASEAN free trade area and the CER (Australia and NZ) free trade areas into the world's 2nd largest free trade area (after NAFTA). However, Dr. Mahatir is still unhappy that former Aussie PM Mr. Keating called him a recalcitrant, and thus scuttled a plan that would have brought tens of billions of dollars to both sides of the agreement. War would be stupid, and totally unlikely anyway...
MinMiester
By: - 11th February 2001 at 11:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Stormrider
Every one thinks that an invasion won't happen because it will damage their economy. we are all humans we suffer from jealousy hate greed who is to say that poor people in one country might look at sing an asked themselves why can't we have that and how come we don't have that isn't that how hitler got the german people to fight the jews he used the peoples human feelings against themselves and against the jews because the jewish people were quite wealthy at the time.
So it is my feelings that as long as you have poor and rich counties and humans controling the armed forces you will have wars. A.T
By: - 11th February 2001 at 13:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Stormrider
LAST EDITED ON 11-Feb-01 AT 01:32 PM (GMT)[p]Simply becos the one country next to it is doing very well economicly(well they don't need The fund to help them out in the money crisis) and the quality of life,let say living standards is lower,you can buy cars way cheaper than Sing and frankly more parties to represent you.....
Ok man see my previous posts you will understand.
btw jew/racial issues? well better take care of your backyard
my friend,your 1 party made a lot of people worried,and a lot of ppl still is well... you know what I mean, the indegenous.
though I must say Indo its a bit messy but Sing forces is a good deterrent.Other than Indo navy could not dream of doing it.
Posts: 219
By: ogini - 10th February 2001 at 00:50
I know these two countrys are supposed to be allies, and they had (have?) a military pact together with Australia and New Zeland for the defence of the Malaya peninsula. RAAF F-18s together with Singaorean SAMs were stationed at Butterworth. However it is to my understanding that there has been ongoing tension between the Malaysian and the Singaporeans for some time now. RSAF fighters were denied use of Malaysian airspace for training some time ago, and the RSAF went to the vast Australian an US airspace for trng. Furthermore, with the RMAF getting MiG-29/F/A-18s, with the possibility of obtaining R-77 BVRs, Singapore asked to get AMRAAMS.
Singapore, one of the best defended countries in the world for its size now has F-16s and Apaches on order (among other stuff). If Malaysia gets Su-30MKM's, what will Singapore get? They've got the dow for the F-22 and are very intrested in the JSF. What will happen?