Philippine Air Force

By: Rammstein - 29th September 2003 at 19:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

"topic which has nothing to do with India, China, Pakistan or any combo of them"

bravo

By: EWR303 - 29th September 2003 at 20:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Here is waht I would do:

New Multi Role Fighter
JAS-39C/D (I think that this is a good choice. New, relativley inexpesive, ease of maintenance.)

Stop Gap Fighter
F-5E/F (from ROCA/SK/Saudis) They all ready use the type, so it would simplify logistics.

Helicopters
AH-1 (surplus US Army)

new prop trainer (KT-1B, Tucano, PC-9)
Tucano It might lead to the ALX(?), Super Tucano which could be used to replace the OV-10C and help with logistics.

Anyway this what I would do.:)

By: Steve Touchdown - 29th September 2003 at 20:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Thailand has just (last week) donated another four OV-10C Broncos.

"Not a lot of people know that" (Michael Caine)

Steve ~ Touchdown-News

By: crobato - 30th September 2003 at 01:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

They are better served by getting more helicopter gunships and troop carriers to help them defeat Moslem insurgents, e.g. Abu Sayaf group, MNLF, etc,.

By: GoldenDragon - 30th September 2003 at 02:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Please don't mention China and India in the same breath. Unless you're deliberately trying to instigate a flamewar.

China is Pacific Rim along with the Philipines.

India and Pakistan are Indian subcontinent.

The PacRim and the Subcontinent have nothing to do with each other.

ROCAF F-5E/F's are in extremely good condition. The same could be said of A-4s from Singapore which the PAF is also inquiring about. Possibly A-4s from New Zealand too.

I don't believe they're expecting anything like 48 fighters of any kind. At most, maybe two squadrons of a dozen each.

They only operate 10 F-5 A/Bs in a single interception/training squadron now.

By: crobato - 30th September 2003 at 02:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Those Spratly issues are minor. Maybe I have not stated it correctly---such issues are almost insignificant compared to the Muslim rebellion which kill more Filipinos each day than Americans in Iraq.

These Muslim rebels are a different breed from Al Qaeda, Hamas, and all the Jihadists. They combine the tenacity and stamina of a Filipino jungle fighter with the fury and anger of Moslem fundamentalism and sheer tribal headhunter savagery.

They like to kidnap and chop people's heads off and a few foreign (read mostly American) missionaries among their victims.

By: J33Nelson - 30th September 2003 at 06:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Multi Role Fighters

24 Kfir 2000 (Israel)

COIN

40 OV-10C (USA / Thailand)

Jet Trainers

32 S.211 (Italy)

Prop Trainers

24 SF-260M/W (Italy)
24 EMB-314 (Brazil)

Transports

5 C-130H (USA)
10 CN-235 (Spain)

Maritime Patrol Plane

5 CN-235MP (Spain)
10 BN-2 (UK)

Attack Helicopters

25 MD-530 (USA)
25 MD-900 (USA)

Transport Helicopters

50 UH-1H (USA)
25 S-76 (USA)
25 S-70A (USA)

AAM

Python 5 (Israel)
Derby (Israel)

ASM / AShM

Popeye Lite (Israel)
Gabriel III (Israel)

I think this would be a good modernization program for the Philippines.

By: Arthur - 30th September 2003 at 09:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Troung,
Your numbers at the top of the thread are way too high. Of the F-5s, only some 3 to 5 are operational at any given time at most, and the same is true for the S.211s. I believe earlier this year only three Marchettis were available to the whole PhAF jet pilot community. For the transports the situation is equally poor: it seems none of the Fokkers are in any way ready to fly, and again only two or three Hercs.

The only part of the PhAF which is being funded to the point of being operationally worthwile is the helo fleet, of course because of it's mission against the Islamist insurgents. Lucky enough for the Phillipines, the US has taken some interest in fighting the militant followers of Mohammed around the world, which means that US Hercs and helos currently fly the Phillipine troops (and some US SpecFors unless they try their submersible Chinook) into harm's way.

As for reforms: considering they are incredibly short on funds, i would get rid of the fighters entirely. A dozen jets are going to be worthless in any possible conflict anyway, so why bother? In stead, i would focus on COIN (but not with oh-so-cool but oh-so-long-in-the-tooth Broncos. I'd go for Super Tucanos), transport and most of all patrol. Something like the C212, equipped for both overland and naval patrol, with possibly a few FFAR's to plink at smaller targets. And if there's a bigger target to be destroyed, just tell the Americans it's something Islamic.

By: wd1 - 30th September 2003 at 10:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

gosh no offence but with an airforce like that... if i were a terrorist/insurgent i'd just buy some iglas.... and i can whack down half the PhAF

By: seahawk - 30th September 2003 at 10:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Yep, Arthur is right.

Fighters - what for`?? If they get int oa major conflict with any of their neighbouring countries 12, 24 or 36 F-5s won´t make a difference, yet they would suck a big part of the budget.

First they need more helos. More troop carriers and perhaps some AH-1s so that they can make a pink team with those and the MD-530.

The Broncos are old and could be retired. A Super Tucano (like those used by Brazil) would be a good replacement.

Then upgrade the patrol aircraft. Keep the Islanders and add some CASA 295. Troop carriers as well. And if funds permit I would want to get CASA 295 mini Gunships. Say 2x20 mm guns in the door with IR capability and flare dop possibility, should be nice for night ops against local guerillias and those machine would be priceless if you need to defend a freindly outpost at night.

Finally some cheap UAVs.

By: seahawk - 30th September 2003 at 13:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Originally posted by troung

Of course maybe they could look into low cost/surplus Su-25K/UBKs, Mi-24s and Mi-8s to better support the army.

That is something I would see as a bad idea. Going Russian would mean a second source for spares, and you need hard cash to buy spares. You need to retrain your pilots and maintenance personal as they are not used to russian hardware.

Wit hsuch limited budget I would rather go for used AH-1 and Uh-1 of the US Army, which would not be more expensive and bettter fit into the current struture.

Btw. I still see the need for fighters. Today Malaysia uses Hawks to chase away the Bronco. If they get some F-5E Malaysia will use SU-30s to do the same. It is a no win situation.

By: GoldenDragon - 30th September 2003 at 13:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Fighters are necessary simply for air space interdiction and control. Austria only has one squadron but that squadron is still very necessary for establishing its control over its own airspace. So even if we discount the Spratleys, fighters are critical for sovereignty issues over air space alone even if its only over Manila.

This is important in peace time, without war.

But trying to maintain 48 F-5E/Fs would be a problem. The expense of maintaining them is partly why the ROCAF is giving them away.

Also, it would mean the expense of training both new pilots and ground crew for a pretty substantial new force. The PAF never operated that many fighters before.

The PAF needs fighters but not 48 of them (or 63 combining what they have now).

By: nohnaimer - 30th September 2003 at 14:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

some infos on Philippines

1) its a very poor country, economy is going down south along with rest of the ASEAN
2) the president don't trust the military at all, so expect any big budget purchases

Spratlys. Malaysia used Hawk 208s to chase away PhAF OV-10s a couple years ago.

Not much they can do, surrounded by both much more militarily and economically neighbors. PLAN send a Jiangwei to chase away the PhN couple years back too

By: GoldenDragon - 30th September 2003 at 16:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Originally posted by troung
"But trying to maintain 48 F-5E/Fs would be a problem. The expense of maintaining them is partly why the ROCAF is giving them away."

Not as much as the fact the ROCAF also has better fighters in service.

True but maintenance costs are always reasons part of the reason that Air Forces get rid of usable airframes (and the ROCAF's F-5s are in great shape). Though the PLAAF, for years, seemed reluctant to give up any flyable airframe.

Actually they did during the 1950-1970s. They first had 70 or so F-51Ds, then 55 F-86D/Fs, then 25 F-5A/Bs and 35 F-8Hs. When you think it only since the 1980s have they started to become so weak.

Until 1991, the Phillipines armed forces operated under the aegis of the US. Between Clark and Subic, the US Air Force and Navy helped more than a little.

The P-51Ds were actually transferred from the USAAF after WWII and were used against the Hukbalahap guerillas.

The F-8Hs are actually up for sale.

http://members.rogers.com/rcruz3260/f-8sale.htm

PHILIPPINE AIR FORCE
Headquarters 420th Supply Wing
Clark Air Base, Angeles City, Pampanga

SALE THROUGH PUBLIC NEGOTIATION
The PAF Disposal Committee is accepting tender for the sale of the following disposable properties on “As Is — Where Is” basis through negotiation.

Eight (8) F-8H aircraft
Eighteen (18) T-28 engines
Two (2) lots of assorted aircraft parts

For details and schedule of inspection: call Cpt. Nick Ventura PAF at (045) 599-2014/2015 loc. 6524 or cell 0919-673-4092.

(Sgd.) BRIG GEN CLAUDIO P. ESTALILLA AFP
Chairman, PAF Disposal committee -

PDI — March 12,13 & 14,2003)

These are the remains of the once proud fleet of PAF F-8H Crusaders. At it's high point, the PAF owned 25 Crusaders in addition to another 10 other non-flyable airframes used as spares sources to keep the fleet flying. PAF Crusaders ranged over the Spartly Islands, participated in Cope Thunder exercises with the USAF and even intercepted Russian Bear bombers flying from bases in the Kamchatka penninsula to Vietnam. Nothing has replaced them. If the Russians or anyone else for that matter wanted to, they could fly circles over Manila and the Philippines would not be able to do anything about it except watch....