By: troung
- 30th September 2003 at 16:22Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
"The F-8Hs are actually up for sale."
I know they were pulled out of service to to thier high cost and the fact the planes were poorly suited to the climate. they were supposed to be replaced by a modern fighter (F-16/F-18) but budget problems stopped that.
"The P-51Ds were actually transferred from the USAAF after WWII and were used against the Hukbalahap guerillas."
I know that as well. And the F-86D/Fs replaced them in the 1950s.
"True but maintenance costs are always reasons part of the reason that Air Forces get rid of usable airframes (and the ROCAF's F-5s are in great shape)."
Why waste money keeping thier oldest plane in service that how I see it. But you are right it is a waste of resources to keep all of them flying them around (many are still in service).
New
Posts: 372
By: EWR303
- 30th September 2003 at 16:33Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No offense to anyone, but it looks like the Philippines Air Force is a force in name only. Someone mentioned that about five F5s are available for service. If the need came, how can the Phil AF put up a fight?
By: Arthur
- 30th September 2003 at 18:29Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Crusaders are up for sale? It would already be problematic to move them! They have been in open storage at Basa ever since 1986, and even if the local weather isn't corrosive enough, the aircraft have suffered tremendously from the dust sparkled on them by the Mount Pinatubo explosion.
Unfortunately it won't fit on my balcony, otherwise i'd want one :D
By: Ja Worsley
- 1st October 2003 at 03:09Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ummm since when did the PAF acquire the BN-2's? AFAIK, they only have F-27 Enforcers and N-24L Nomads. The navy has the Defenders don't they?
Firstly I'd like to point out that the Phillipines turned down an aid package last year from the Us worth billions, not only was their new fighters (F-16A/B's) but transports and new ships including some of their current patrol boats that are up for sale.
The deal was turned down mainly because they felt that the American's were wanting too much in return, including exclusive rights to all military programes from updates right through to procurments (Talk about control fanatics).
Anyway, with that said, here are my two cents worth, keep in mind that I'm a stickler of logistics and support maintainence, and they don't have much money:
Fighters: I'd agree about the Gripens, but only the A models with Western avionics, the C's may be a bit too much and also a tad more expencive.
Counter Insurgency: The Embraer A-29 would make a damd good replacement for the old OV-10's, nice light and easy to support.
Maritime Patrole/Maritime Recconacence: Embraer EMB-111's, since the FAB are soon to retire them in favour of the EMB-145MP, and the PAF could get them at a bargin price, they'd be a great stop gap untill funds become available for something new.
Advance Trainers: I've always liked the S-211's they are a nice plane, but they do need an over haul. If they really want to get a new advanced trainer then why not a TP trainer? a lot of other AF's do it this way and I'd use the Tucano in this role
Basic Trainer: The SF-260W is a very good plane, I'd keep these going a while longer. Should they really consider a replacement, I'd go for Tucanos in keeping with the A-29's
Transports: Update the Hercs, the ones that the PAF have are really old and get newer ones, possibly some H models, there are a few in AMRAC, retire the F-27's and move up to CN-235's or even C-212's and get rid of the Nomads, they are death traps, why do you think we got rid of them? (Widow makers we called them).
Attack Helos: Is there really a need for them? if so is there really a need for that many? I'd retire all but say 20-24 of them, but still keep them as MD-530's, those thing are really light and manouverable, not to mention fast.
Transport Helos: Get rid of the Eagles, having them in such small numbers isn't really helping much, same with the Pumas, and retire all the old B models, just concerntrate on H models and keep the S-70's for the Presidential flight.
AAM's: Yes deffinately update these, they's have to be the only country in the world still using the AIM-9B's, the Python series could be acquired very cheaply and would boost the PAF's capabilities to a modern standard, but then again, it would depend on what A/c they buy.
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By: Anonymous
- 1st October 2003 at 03:42Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What does a British Hawk 200 series cost? Maybe the PhF could afford something in that class? A mix buy of twin seat 100 series (secondhand?) and a small number of single seat 200 series? The 200's with a good radar and Amraams would be a good point defense fighter. the twin seat 100's could do training and close air support against rebels........just a thought?
By: Ja Worsley
- 1st October 2003 at 03:52Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I thought about that as well mate, but the price of a Hawk is rather high, the best that they could hope for woult be to buy Ex-RAF T-1/T-1A's, the 100's are relativly new and there are no second hand ones around yet.
New
Posts: 676
By: troung
- 1st October 2003 at 03:59Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
"What does a British Hawk 200 series cost? Maybe the PhF could afford something in that class? A mix buy of twin seat 100 series (secondhand?) and a small number of single seat 200 series? The 200's with a good radar and Amraams would be a good point defense fighter."
The Hawk 200 costs more then a F-5E/F and would be of less use then one due to its slower speed. I think it might cost around 10-12 million. And I don't think there are any surplus Hawk 100s around.
The way I see it the F-5E/F could infact be very good for CAS missions seeing as it has done them in the past (Vietnam War, Vietnam vs. Cambodia, Iran v Iraq etc...). The F-5E/F can be upgraded to feature BVR and it has a pretty good range and payload for a small fighter. It can carry laser guided weapons (with upgrades), cluster bombs, Mk-80 family dumb bombs and air to air missiles. I see a jet fighter for them more as a combat tool then just showing off seeing as they could have trouble in the not to near future and a mutli role fighter could infact support ground ops.
I still kinda think they shold go for additional sources for weapons like many other nations do. They could get soem ex USSR Mi-8s for troop lift and medivac roles. The Tucano or KT-1B would be a great trainer and could probaly replace even the S-211s along with the SF-260M/Ws. Also the Tucanos or KT-1B can be used for close air support as well. A N-22/F-27 replacment coudl come in the Cn-235 or even surplus An-32s. For gunship support the AH-1 or Mi-24 coudl be good.
They can rearm themselves however it seems like it probably will not start until they face a crisis which could make it to late.
"Ummm since when did the PAF acquire the BN-2's? AFAIK, they only have F-27 Enforcers and N-24L Nomads. The navy has the Defenders don't they?"
Hell I was lazy.......
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By: Anonymous
- 1st October 2003 at 04:09Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I agree that F-5's should be exceptable in both missions. (Air to Air & Air to Ground) Besides they are cheap! Another possiblilty could be the A-50/T-50 coming from South Korea. That said, them would have to wait a few before they become available........but, who knows when the PhAF will get the funds anyway? (Its been over 30 years now!)
New
Posts: 676
By: troung
- 1st October 2003 at 04:23Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
"That said, them would have to wait a few before they become available........but, who knows when the PhAF will get the funds anyway? (Its been over 30 years now!)"
Well the ROCAF F-5E/Fs (48) are being offered for free along with some AIM-9Ps and older AGM-65s. They could recieve the now canceled ROCAF F-5E upgrade for a couple million dollars am airframe and become pretty good air defense fighters with the TC-2 and TC-1 along with the HF-2 (?) and AGM-65. The money could be there if they show the will to buy.
Plus there are other F-5E/F upgrades out there such as the Israeli/Chile one which has the M-2032, Derby and Python4 along with guided bombs, there is also the one from Singapore which has the Griffo-F radar and can use the AIM-120.
An upgraded F-5E/F could soldier on until about 2010ish when they coudl look into a new mutli role figther (JAS-39, F-16, F/A-18) and team it with the F-5E.
FYI the fighter they want a lot is actually the F/A-18A/B.
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By: Anonymous
- 1st October 2003 at 05:32Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Originally posted by troung "That said, them would have to wait a few before they become available........but, who knows when the PhAF will get the funds anyway? (Its been over 30 years now!)"
Well the ROCAF F-5E/Fs (48) are being offered for free along with some AIM-9Ps and older AGM-65s. They could recieve the now canceled ROCAF F-5E upgrade for a couple million dollars am airframe and become pretty good air defense fighters with the TC-2 and TC-1 along with the HF-2 (?) and AGM-65. The money could be there if they show the will to buy.
Plus there are other F-5E/F upgrades out there such as the Israeli/Chile one which has the M-2032, Derby and Python4 along with guided bombs, there is also the one from Singapore which has the Griffo-F radar and can use the AIM-120.
An upgraded F-5E/F could soldier on until about 2010ish when they coudl look into a new mutli role figther (JAS-39, F-16, F/A-18) and team it with the F-5E.
FYI the fighter they want a lot is actually the F/A-18A/B.
I don't see the money for the F/A-18's. I have wondered why the US doesn't support the PhAF in a buy of F-5's from Tawian? The US isn't going to make any money off any PhAF deal at this point. (or anyone else for that matter) Besides a stronger PhAF is definitely in the interest of the US Goverment. I don't know. Maybe the US does support a F-5 deal but, the PhAF is holding out ?????
By: ALBERT ROSS
- 21st January 2004 at 23:28Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It is such a shame that every time they talk about getting replacement aircraft, they just cannot afford them. They were going to get F-5Es, then ex RNZAF Skyhawks, then something else and still the last few F-5As soldier on. I was there in 1980 - wonderful people and Air Force. At one time they painted the F-5As with black noses to make them look like F-5Es!! Does anyone have any pubicity material on their "Blue Diamonds" Aerobatic Team, or know if they still fly?
New
Posts: 10,217
By: flex297
- 22nd January 2004 at 17:56Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Some pics of PhAF S211s
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By: flex297
- 22nd January 2004 at 17:58Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
...
New
Posts: 10,217
By: flex297
- 22nd January 2004 at 18:02Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
and this one
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Posts: 676
By: troung
- 22nd January 2004 at 19:31Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ahh the S-211 the post child for the poor shape the PAF is in.....
By: ALBERT ROSS
- 24th July 2004 at 19:03Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The PhilAF cannot afford brand new aircraft like the JAS-39, so they should accept the ROCAF offer of F-5E/Fs. This is their cheapest option, despite the maintenance costs. I visited several Phil.AF bases in 1980 and I was told that their F-5As had their noses painted black to look like F-5Es!!! If that isn't desperate, what is? At that time, I saw the F-8H Crusaders in operational condition at Basa Air Base and was told they are a nightmare to maintain! They should never have bought them, as they were unsuitable as land-based aircraft in that climate. I agree with 'Arthur' and 'Seahawk' that they need more COIN aircraft and choppers, so some Tucanos would suit their needs.
Posts: 676
By: troung - 30th September 2003 at 16:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
"The F-8Hs are actually up for sale."
I know they were pulled out of service to to thier high cost and the fact the planes were poorly suited to the climate. they were supposed to be replaced by a modern fighter (F-16/F-18) but budget problems stopped that.
"The P-51Ds were actually transferred from the USAAF after WWII and were used against the Hukbalahap guerillas."
I know that as well. And the F-86D/Fs replaced them in the 1950s.
"True but maintenance costs are always reasons part of the reason that Air Forces get rid of usable airframes (and the ROCAF's F-5s are in great shape)."
Why waste money keeping thier oldest plane in service that how I see it. But you are right it is a waste of resources to keep all of them flying them around (many are still in service).
Posts: 372
By: EWR303 - 30th September 2003 at 16:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No offense to anyone, but it looks like the Philippines Air Force is a force in name only. Someone mentioned that about five F5s are available for service. If the need came, how can the Phil AF put up a fight?
Posts: 3,854
By: GoldenDragon - 30th September 2003 at 16:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Lest people forget, the Phillipines is NOT a small nation.
It has 85 million people. More than than France, Britain or Italy. It is about the same as Germany and more than twice as large as South Korea.
Its per capita GDP is $4200 which is middle tier third world, definitely not the poorest.
It should be able to operate a force like that of an Algeria or Peru.
The question is whether they feel the need to.
Posts: 7,877
By: Arthur - 30th September 2003 at 18:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Crusaders are up for sale? It would already be problematic to move them! They have been in open storage at Basa ever since 1986, and even if the local weather isn't corrosive enough, the aircraft have suffered tremendously from the dust sparkled on them by the Mount Pinatubo explosion.
Unfortunately it won't fit on my balcony, otherwise i'd want one :D
Posts: 6,208
By: Ja Worsley - 1st October 2003 at 03:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ummm since when did the PAF acquire the BN-2's? AFAIK, they only have F-27 Enforcers and N-24L Nomads. The navy has the Defenders don't they?
Firstly I'd like to point out that the Phillipines turned down an aid package last year from the Us worth billions, not only was their new fighters (F-16A/B's) but transports and new ships including some of their current patrol boats that are up for sale.
The deal was turned down mainly because they felt that the American's were wanting too much in return, including exclusive rights to all military programes from updates right through to procurments (Talk about control fanatics).
Anyway, with that said, here are my two cents worth, keep in mind that I'm a stickler of logistics and support maintainence, and they don't have much money:
Fighters: I'd agree about the Gripens, but only the A models with Western avionics, the C's may be a bit too much and also a tad more expencive.
Counter Insurgency: The Embraer A-29 would make a damd good replacement for the old OV-10's, nice light and easy to support.
Maritime Patrole/Maritime Recconacence: Embraer EMB-111's, since the FAB are soon to retire them in favour of the EMB-145MP, and the PAF could get them at a bargin price, they'd be a great stop gap untill funds become available for something new.
Advance Trainers: I've always liked the S-211's they are a nice plane, but they do need an over haul. If they really want to get a new advanced trainer then why not a TP trainer? a lot of other AF's do it this way and I'd use the Tucano in this role
Basic Trainer: The SF-260W is a very good plane, I'd keep these going a while longer. Should they really consider a replacement, I'd go for Tucanos in keeping with the A-29's
Transports: Update the Hercs, the ones that the PAF have are really old and get newer ones, possibly some H models, there are a few in AMRAC, retire the F-27's and move up to CN-235's or even C-212's and get rid of the Nomads, they are death traps, why do you think we got rid of them? (Widow makers we called them).
Attack Helos: Is there really a need for them? if so is there really a need for that many? I'd retire all but say 20-24 of them, but still keep them as MD-530's, those thing are really light and manouverable, not to mention fast.
Transport Helos: Get rid of the Eagles, having them in such small numbers isn't really helping much, same with the Pumas, and retire all the old B models, just concerntrate on H models and keep the S-70's for the Presidential flight.
AAM's: Yes deffinately update these, they's have to be the only country in the world still using the AIM-9B's, the Python series could be acquired very cheaply and would boost the PAF's capabilities to a modern standard, but then again, it would depend on what A/c they buy.
By: Anonymous - 1st October 2003 at 03:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What does a British Hawk 200 series cost? Maybe the PhF could afford something in that class? A mix buy of twin seat 100 series (secondhand?) and a small number of single seat 200 series? The 200's with a good radar and Amraams would be a good point defense fighter. the twin seat 100's could do training and close air support against rebels........just a thought?
Posts: 6,208
By: Ja Worsley - 1st October 2003 at 03:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I thought about that as well mate, but the price of a Hawk is rather high, the best that they could hope for woult be to buy Ex-RAF T-1/T-1A's, the 100's are relativly new and there are no second hand ones around yet.
Posts: 676
By: troung - 1st October 2003 at 03:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
"What does a British Hawk 200 series cost? Maybe the PhF could afford something in that class? A mix buy of twin seat 100 series (secondhand?) and a small number of single seat 200 series? The 200's with a good radar and Amraams would be a good point defense fighter."
The Hawk 200 costs more then a F-5E/F and would be of less use then one due to its slower speed. I think it might cost around 10-12 million. And I don't think there are any surplus Hawk 100s around.
The way I see it the F-5E/F could infact be very good for CAS missions seeing as it has done them in the past (Vietnam War, Vietnam vs. Cambodia, Iran v Iraq etc...). The F-5E/F can be upgraded to feature BVR and it has a pretty good range and payload for a small fighter. It can carry laser guided weapons (with upgrades), cluster bombs, Mk-80 family dumb bombs and air to air missiles. I see a jet fighter for them more as a combat tool then just showing off seeing as they could have trouble in the not to near future and a mutli role fighter could infact support ground ops.
I still kinda think they shold go for additional sources for weapons like many other nations do. They could get soem ex USSR Mi-8s for troop lift and medivac roles. The Tucano or KT-1B would be a great trainer and could probaly replace even the S-211s along with the SF-260M/Ws. Also the Tucanos or KT-1B can be used for close air support as well. A N-22/F-27 replacment coudl come in the Cn-235 or even surplus An-32s. For gunship support the AH-1 or Mi-24 coudl be good.
They can rearm themselves however it seems like it probably will not start until they face a crisis which could make it to late.
"Ummm since when did the PAF acquire the BN-2's? AFAIK, they only have F-27 Enforcers and N-24L Nomads. The navy has the Defenders don't they?"
Hell I was lazy.......
By: Anonymous - 1st October 2003 at 04:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I agree that F-5's should be exceptable in both missions. (Air to Air & Air to Ground) Besides they are cheap! Another possiblilty could be the A-50/T-50 coming from South Korea. That said, them would have to wait a few before they become available........but, who knows when the PhAF will get the funds anyway? (Its been over 30 years now!)
Posts: 676
By: troung - 1st October 2003 at 04:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
"That said, them would have to wait a few before they become available........but, who knows when the PhAF will get the funds anyway? (Its been over 30 years now!)"
Well the ROCAF F-5E/Fs (48) are being offered for free along with some AIM-9Ps and older AGM-65s. They could recieve the now canceled ROCAF F-5E upgrade for a couple million dollars am airframe and become pretty good air defense fighters with the TC-2 and TC-1 along with the HF-2 (?) and AGM-65. The money could be there if they show the will to buy.
Plus there are other F-5E/F upgrades out there such as the Israeli/Chile one which has the M-2032, Derby and Python4 along with guided bombs, there is also the one from Singapore which has the Griffo-F radar and can use the AIM-120.
An upgraded F-5E/F could soldier on until about 2010ish when they coudl look into a new mutli role figther (JAS-39, F-16, F/A-18) and team it with the F-5E.
FYI the fighter they want a lot is actually the F/A-18A/B.
By: Anonymous - 1st October 2003 at 05:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I don't see the money for the F/A-18's. I have wondered why the US doesn't support the PhAF in a buy of F-5's from Tawian? The US isn't going to make any money off any PhAF deal at this point. (or anyone else for that matter) Besides a stronger PhAF is definitely in the interest of the US Goverment. I don't know. Maybe the US does support a F-5 deal but, the PhAF is holding out ?????
Posts: 4,202
By: seahawk - 1st October 2003 at 07:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Or maybe the PHAF is fighting a COIN war and has no need for fighters ??
Simply because fighting moslem rebels the F-5s are quite ineffective doing so.
Posts: 676
By: troung - 2nd October 2003 at 02:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well their air force does want a new mutli role fighter. Muslim and Communists rebels are not their only troubles.........
Posts: 2,508
By: ALBERT ROSS - 21st January 2004 at 23:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It is such a shame that every time they talk about getting replacement aircraft, they just cannot afford them. They were going to get F-5Es, then ex RNZAF Skyhawks, then something else and still the last few F-5As soldier on. I was there in 1980 - wonderful people and Air Force. At one time they painted the F-5As with black noses to make them look like F-5Es!! Does anyone have any pubicity material on their "Blue Diamonds" Aerobatic Team, or know if they still fly?
Posts: 10,217
By: flex297 - 22nd January 2004 at 17:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Some pics of PhAF S211s
Posts: 10,217
By: flex297 - 22nd January 2004 at 17:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
...
Posts: 10,217
By: flex297 - 22nd January 2004 at 18:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
and this one
Posts: 676
By: troung - 22nd January 2004 at 19:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ahh the S-211 the post child for the poor shape the PAF is in.....
Posts: 2,991
By: Canpark - 24th July 2004 at 11:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
More PhAF images.....
Posts: 2,508
By: ALBERT ROSS - 24th July 2004 at 19:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The PhilAF cannot afford brand new aircraft like the JAS-39, so they should accept the ROCAF offer of F-5E/Fs. This is their cheapest option, despite the maintenance costs. I visited several Phil.AF bases in 1980 and I was told that their F-5As had their noses painted black to look like F-5Es!!! If that isn't desperate, what is? At that time, I saw the F-8H Crusaders in operational condition at Basa Air Base and was told they are a nightmare to maintain! They should never have bought them, as they were unsuitable as land-based aircraft in that climate. I agree with 'Arthur' and 'Seahawk' that they need more COIN aircraft and choppers, so some Tucanos would suit their needs.