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By: - 3rd May 2003 at 00:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Dont forget the Russians have most of the shot-down F117a from serbia, that would of boosted their stealth options ten-fold
By: - 3rd May 2003 at 00:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No, they most likely don't have any of the F-117, see the thread on Russia's Air Force for more info.
By: - 3rd May 2003 at 00:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I remember reading an article about Brazil developing something to do with stealth... I can't remember if it was ram paint or what. That's all I can recall, too bad I can't be more specific.
By: - 3rd May 2003 at 00:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hmm, probably some sort of RAM I'd guess. Thanks for the info!
By: - 3rd May 2003 at 00:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I must of seen or heard different news to you, but I recall seeing Russian 'peacekeepers' serving in the Serb conflict guarding the wreckage of the F117. They were with some of the serb solders who claimed to shoot it down. If the russians were there to guard it, I dont think they were they going to hand it back to the yanks asking had they lost something?
By: - 3rd May 2003 at 01:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Think of it this way. Yes, there are some pieces in a museum in the FRY somewhere, I forget the name. As for the rest, not everything in that war was what it seemed...
By: - 3rd May 2003 at 04:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
...
RAM is really no big deal until you go into the details. IIRC over 20 countries have their own "recipes"...
By: - 3rd May 2003 at 11:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Originally posted by GarryB
During WWII the Russians made an aircraft fabricated from glass. It was apparantly quite effective at mid to long range but the effect was lost through use as small cracks eventually ruined the effect.
This experiment took place in the 1930s, in which a Yakovlev AIR-4 parasol-winged trainer had it's fuselage covered with Rodoid in stead of cloth. Rodoid is a thick, tough sort of cellophane and is clear, but it is indeed sometimes referred to as "a kind of organic glass". The 'solid' parts of the aircraft's structure (airframe, engines, cockpit, etcetera) were either painted or enameled white, or given a mirroring surface finish. The result was indeed as good as invisible, but because aircraft (and especially combat aircraft) were getting more and more 'solid' parts (try to make see-through bombs, guns and ammo belts!), it wasn't considered a feasible solution anymore so the project was cancelled in 1935.
The Lampyridae was actually a German-Dutch cooperative project. Although the design was completely German, it's aerodynamics and planned controls were tested and developed by the Dutch. The Rijksluchtvaartdienst (State Aviation Service, the national aviation authority) took part in it. It was an interesting design, a for it's day uncompromised stealthy point-defense fighter. The project was cancelled after a bit of pressure from a certain large NATO member which feared that the existance or even admittance of something like the Lampiridae in Europe might compromise that other nation's stealth projects.
As for US stealth projects, i believe the first one which was put to use was the rubber-with-metal paint for the U-2.
By: - 3rd May 2003 at 14:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Wasn't there a Russian tactical bomber (in WWII) that could glide part of the way to its target (at night) thereby making it stealthy vs. WWII detection technology.
By: - 3rd May 2003 at 14:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
"I recall seeing Russian 'peacekeepers' serving in the Serb conflict guarding the wreckage of the F117."
Thats weird - I don't recall that at all.
I still don't see why parts of the F-117 shot down over Serbia shouldn't have gone to Russia - although most rumours suggesting a transfer have since been discredited.
By: - 3rd May 2003 at 18:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Russia stealing other peoples technology, never!
By: - 3rd May 2003 at 19:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Tempest, you could have gotten a better piece of photoshop than that. But perhaps you could explain that picture a bit, or are you afraid to embarras yourself too much by demonstrating your ignorance?
By: - 3rd May 2003 at 20:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
and the F-14's from Iran who are handed over to russia in return of weapons in the time the Sha was overthrown?
By: - 3rd May 2003 at 22:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You are as funny as I am ignorant Arthur. I got the pic at http://capturedplanes.tripod.com/
Don't know anything else. Work it out yourselves. Probably is a photoshop, but then again lets hear what others think.
By: - 4th May 2003 at 10:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Originally posted by Tempest
You are as funny as I am ignorant Arthur. I got the pic at http://capturedplanes.tripod.com/Don't know anything else. Work it out yourselves. Probably is a photoshop, but then again lets hear what others think.
Thanks for the link. Please allow me to shatter this dream...
First of all, the Soviets and the Iranians never were really good friends, and certainly not to the extent that the Iranians would hand over their air force's most important fighter over to the Soviets. There was no need to either, because by the time the spares supply from the US ceased to exist (in the mid 1980s after the Ollie N. and Ronnie R. finally had to stop supporting the ayatollah) the Iranians had enough production capability to keep their Tomcat fleet in the air.
Secondly, if you take a look at the two pics on the site, you can see that the top F-14 picture (which is IMHO a photoshopped pic of a USN agressor Tomcat landing at either NAS Fallon or Miramar, unfortunately i just know i won't be able to find the original) shows an aircraft equipped with TCS under the nose. This is a long-range camera system for visID far beyond the range of the Mark 1 Eyeball. This TCS is not on the second picture which should be the same aircraft according to the (poorly written) text.
But then the TCS could have been removed? Indeed, it could have been. Except for the fact that Iran's Tomcats never were delivered with TCS.
Also, the MiG-29 on the upper pic is definately photoshopped. Different sharpness, and the curved leading edge of the wing was unfortunately forgotten by the artist.
Finally, if a Tomcat had been flown by the Soviets, some people more reliable and with better connections than the webmaster of that site would have known. Trust me. The site also doesn't quite come across as reliable since it has missed out the most important and well documented 'captured aircraft' by the Soviets: two F-5E's, one A-37B, four B-29s, and a few others.
Plenty of omissions in the other countries' directories as well. And i think you should know how important it is to properly assess a source of information. " http://capturedplanes.tripod.com/ " can IMHO be put in the bin of wasted bandwith.
By: - 4th May 2003 at 11:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Originally posted by Arthur
The site also doesn't quite come across as reliable since it has missed out the most important and well documented 'captured aircraft' by the Soviets: two F-5E's, one A-37B, four B-29s, and a few others.
I have photographed both an ex-South Vietnamese F-5E and A-37B on display at the Polish Aviation museum in Krakow :- http://www.muz-lotnictwa.krakow.pl/
They were passed on to the SU by Vietnam, evaluated by the Czechs and the Poles - and ended up in Krakow.
The latest issue (Vol 7) of International Air Power Review has a great article about Ramenskoye (Zhukovsky) with an intriguing photo on p88 showing a Phantom and Mirage III - it doesn't say whether they are mockups or real a/c.
The B-29's were not exactly 'captured' - they had force-landed in the Soviet Union following raids on Tokyo and were interned by the Soviets in accordance with a treaty they had with the Japanese that obliged them to do so. They then reverse-engineered the B-29 into the Tupolev Tu-4 'Bull'.
They also tried to 'copy' the U-2 (as the Beriev S-13/Article 'U') - so they must have had quite a few examples of that airframe in various states of repair.
Similarly, they had examples of the F-86 from Korea. etc etc.
Ken
By: - 4th May 2003 at 11:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
. And i think you should know how important it is to properly assess a source of information.
How dare you you cheeky bstrd!!!!
I didnt make any claims about the picture, I simply pasted it up gave you the site to work it out inyour own thick little skull
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
By: - 4th May 2003 at 14:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Originally posted by Tempest
How dare you you cheeky bstrd!!!!I didnt make any claims about the picture
Nah, only suggestions. Which are now put straight :D
Ken,
I'm sure you have seen the F-5E at Kbely as well? It's part of the same batch of aircraft, but the Poles were lucky enough to get that Dragonfly as well.
Unfortunately i haven't seen the latest IAPR yet, but those photos do sound interesting. As far as i know, the Soviets never obtained a complete Phantom, although quite a few parts and components did find their way to Russia - again, from Vietnam. Also, the Russians did try to get their hands on a Mirage IIIEL from the Lebanese but this one should have fallen through.
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By: SOC - 3rd May 2003 at 00:19
Alright, with the debate ongoing about Russian stealth design capability, lets examine who all has attempted a stealth program. For aircraft, that is :D
US-'nuff said.
France-that new UAV, and the Rafale has stealth elements.
UK-that F-35 lookalike that was posted here a while back.
Germany-the Lampyridae interceptor program in the '80s, as well as a stealthy attack platform not unlike the A-12.
China-I got some images I'll post later after I get them down to an acceptable size.
Russia-Su-47 has stealth elements, the 1.42 (NOT necessarily the 1.44), and the NOVO-C. Also researched stealth technology such as RAM, which has been applied to the Tu-160, and the Keldysh device.
India-also researched and developed RAM.
Japan-Mitsubishi is designing a stealthy F-15J replacement.
Anyone else I missed?