By: shadowpuppet
- 11th January 2011 at 13:01Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Of course, we don't know how long this design has taken, the problems encountered, if it has any flaws that are simply not mentioned, or if it is nothing more than a paper tiger :rolleyes:
I'm not saying this is necessarily true, China can produce as good hardware as anywhere else, but without access to all the information it's inappropriate to declare it a triumphal success.
Yet.
You're absolutely right that we know very little this program and the ups and downs it has faced, is facing and will face in the future.
But I look at it from the following position:
In the 1970's and 1980's - Chinese military technology was regarded as practically "stone age" - Mig 19/21 rehashes for instance and an obsolescent navy.
Christ they were trying to work a deal with the Americans for a warmed over 21 with Western avionics and a new schnoz...
From that lowly position, over the course of 20 or so years - they've leaped to the Western 4.5+++ (whatever they're calling it) with the J-11/B and now are test flying a Stealth fighter.
Again, someone will blather about whether they have the necessary knowledge and knowhow for sensor fusion and suchlike, while missing the bigger picture.
The leap China has made is hugely impressive, even without the J-20.
There will be hurdles to overcome - and they are still playing catch up, but if anything they're gaining rapidly with every year that passes.
I should add - I am not a fan of the Chinese political system and various aspects of its internal/foreign policy, but it would appear, at least in the defence industry segment, they have a system that's working pretty damn well.
And when I take a pop at the West's travails with weapon procurement I'm not advocating a mad jump towards dictatorship, communism or anything, just expressing a sense that many important national and international projects should supersede political opportunism and games, because you just hurt yourself otherwise.
By: Mercurius
- 11th January 2011 at 14:50Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
no need to argue on this mate , time will tell
China never cease to amaze people, remember only two weeks ago no one knew the existence of J-20 and now it just did the first flight
Not quite! I’m not much of a China watcher, but the earliest J-20 related document in my files is from 2002.
There is often more leaking out on new projects than can be found on the Internet and in forums. Yesterday I was working on a study of the likely performance of a new strategic missile that the country in question has yet to announce or display in a parade.
Not surprisingly, Russian industry is playing down the J-20, but there are some points of interest in an 8 January Jane’s report written by a Russia-based correspondent who seems to have good access to various design bureaus there.
The Russians apparently had photos and drawings of the J-20 about six months ago and claim that the design shows a strong Russian influence.
Some Russia sources believe that the structure – at least in its current form – is currently almost entirely made from aluminium alloy, and is unlikely to contain any exotic or stealthy materials. They see full production of the definitive design as being about 10 years away.
Russia does not know what type of engine the two prototypes use. It has not officially exported any 117S engines to China, several sources told Jane’s, but they accepted that China may have acquired some. According to Russian daily Vedomosti, which is citing sources in the Russian MoD and Rosoboronexport, China wants to buy large numbers of 117S engines.
By: Sens
- 11th January 2011 at 14:54Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As claimed before the real first flight. Just a few minutes at lower speeds and the landing gear kept. Still a prototyp and some years to go to become a preproduction example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-22_Raptor
We can guess to what date it is comparable:
First flight YF-22: 29 September 1990
F-22: 7 September 1997
At least they have to catch up 20-13 years in develipment in general.
My guess is. We will see the first preproduction examples from 2015 and by that not far behind the Russians.
By: Pinko
- 11th January 2011 at 14:55Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
...Not surprisingly, Russian industry is playing down the J-20, but there are some points of interest in an 8 January Jane’s report written by a Russia-based correspondent who seems to have good access to various design bureaus there.
The Russians apparently had photos and drawings of the J-20 about six months ago and claim that the design shows a strong Russian influence.
Some Russia sources believe that the structure – at least in its current form – is currently almost entirely made from aluminium alloy, and is unlikely to contain any exotic or stealthy materials. They see full production of the definitive design as being about 10 years away.
Russia does not know what type of engine the two prototypes use. It has not officially exported any 117S engines to China, several sources told Jane’s, but they accepted that China may have acquired some. According to Russian daily Vedomosti, which is citing sources in the Russian MoD and Rosoboronexport, China wants to buy large numbers of 117S engines.
Everybody got the mouth, what one can do is tight-lips his own mouth and let the work speaks itself, and let other mouths do the talking.:cool:
By: totoro
- 11th January 2011 at 14:55Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
When we use the high res pic from underneath, shown a couple of posts back, and run it through contrast/brightness correction in photoshop, one can see a very faint long line right in the middle of the underbelly, more or less in the same position where f22 has its line.
By: medal64
- 11th January 2011 at 14:58Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Does the weapon bays also invisible:D Seems like there is no enough space for the side weapons bay (maybe for fuel tanks) but the central body looks quite big! Waiting for high quality pictures:confused:
By: Showtime 100
- 11th January 2011 at 14:59Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not quite! I’m not much of a China watcher, but the earliest J-20 related document in my files is from 2002.
There is often more leaking out on new projects than can be found on the Internet and in forums. Yesterday I was working on a study of the likely performance of a new strategic missile that the country in question has yet to announce or display in a parade.
Not surprisingly, Russian industry is playing down the J-20, but there are some points of interest in an 8 January Jane’s report written by a Russia-based correspondent who seems to have good access to various design bureaus there.
The Russians apparently had photos and drawings of the J-20 about six months ago and claim that the design shows a strong Russian influence.
Some Russia sources believe that the structure – at least in its current form – is currently almost entirely made from aluminium alloy, and is unlikely to contain any exotic or stealthy materials. They see full production of the definitive design as being about 10 years away.
Russia does not know what type of engine the two prototypes use. It has not officially exported any 117S engines to China, several sources told Jane’s, but they accepted that China may have acquired some. According to Russian daily Vedomosti, which is citing sources in the Russian MoD and Rosoboronexport, China wants to buy large numbers of 117S engines.
Hahaha.. Don't you know they slip some sour wine before they wink all these rubbish? :rolleyes:
Russia sources are full of BS and sourgrapes. If you can believe their words, Dog can fly too.
First they passes false info of 117S engine on J-20 to Janes and was reported. But now very clear, every single thing on J-20 that fly is domestic. Now they backtrack but still dare to claim China wanted to buy 117S.
Remember Russia media report abt China buying Su-33 and Su-35 few years ago. Guess until now what thing has go thru???
By: totoro
- 11th January 2011 at 15:07Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm not saying there are side bays, but in theory there is enough clearence for them. Even if j20 is only 19 m long, there is a bit over 4 meters from the edge of the intake to the edge of the landing gear bay. If j20 is 20 meters long, said distance is closer to 4,5 meters.
Posts: 2,248
By: snafu352 - 11th January 2011 at 12:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Aren't canards and stealth thought by certain "experts" to be mutually exclusive?
Hasn't anybody informed the Chinese of this "fact?"
Posts: 1,114
By: medal64 - 11th January 2011 at 12:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes it flied in 2000;)After years of delay because of the funding problems...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMIApk6d6Oc
Posts: 1,291
By: Pinko - 11th January 2011 at 12:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ya, the same "expert" also announced the JSF is "flying PIG", should this "fact" also need to be informed ?
Posts: 4
By: Janela - 11th January 2011 at 12:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Posts: 156
By: shadowpuppet - 11th January 2011 at 13:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You're absolutely right that we know very little this program and the ups and downs it has faced, is facing and will face in the future.
But I look at it from the following position:
In the 1970's and 1980's - Chinese military technology was regarded as practically "stone age" - Mig 19/21 rehashes for instance and an obsolescent navy.
Christ they were trying to work a deal with the Americans for a warmed over 21 with Western avionics and a new schnoz...
From that lowly position, over the course of 20 or so years - they've leaped to the Western 4.5+++ (whatever they're calling it) with the J-11/B and now are test flying a Stealth fighter.
Again, someone will blather about whether they have the necessary knowledge and knowhow for sensor fusion and suchlike, while missing the bigger picture.
The leap China has made is hugely impressive, even without the J-20.
There will be hurdles to overcome - and they are still playing catch up, but if anything they're gaining rapidly with every year that passes.
I should add - I am not a fan of the Chinese political system and various aspects of its internal/foreign policy, but it would appear, at least in the defence industry segment, they have a system that's working pretty damn well.
And when I take a pop at the West's travails with weapon procurement I'm not advocating a mad jump towards dictatorship, communism or anything, just expressing a sense that many important national and international projects should supersede political opportunism and games, because you just hurt yourself otherwise.
Posts: 1,291
By: Pinko - 11th January 2011 at 14:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sorry, Keypublishing server, but today is a special day :p
Posts: 549
By: Rookh - 11th January 2011 at 14:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Is it just me or are there no weapon bays?
Posts: 13,432
By: swerve - 11th January 2011 at 14:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I can't see any, either.
Maybe this is just a technology demonstrator, & the real prototype (with weapons bays, etc) is yet to come. Plenty of precedents.
Posts: 1,291
By: Pinko - 11th January 2011 at 14:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Just use some simple logics, no weapon bay , how to demo aerodynamics?
Posts: 1,348
By: Mercurius - 11th January 2011 at 14:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not quite! I’m not much of a China watcher, but the earliest J-20 related document in my files is from 2002.
There is often more leaking out on new projects than can be found on the Internet and in forums. Yesterday I was working on a study of the likely performance of a new strategic missile that the country in question has yet to announce or display in a parade.
Not surprisingly, Russian industry is playing down the J-20, but there are some points of interest in an 8 January Jane’s report written by a Russia-based correspondent who seems to have good access to various design bureaus there.
The Russians apparently had photos and drawings of the J-20 about six months ago and claim that the design shows a strong Russian influence.
Some Russia sources believe that the structure – at least in its current form – is currently almost entirely made from aluminium alloy, and is unlikely to contain any exotic or stealthy materials. They see full production of the definitive design as being about 10 years away.
Russia does not know what type of engine the two prototypes use. It has not officially exported any 117S engines to China, several sources told Jane’s, but they accepted that China may have acquired some. According to Russian daily Vedomosti, which is citing sources in the Russian MoD and Rosoboronexport, China wants to buy large numbers of 117S engines.
Posts: 11,742
By: Sens - 11th January 2011 at 14:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As claimed before the real first flight. Just a few minutes at lower speeds and the landing gear kept. Still a prototyp and some years to go to become a preproduction example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-22_Raptor
We can guess to what date it is comparable:
First flight YF-22: 29 September 1990
F-22: 7 September 1997
At least they have to catch up 20-13 years in develipment in general.
My guess is. We will see the first preproduction examples from 2015 and by that not far behind the Russians.
Posts: 1,291
By: Pinko - 11th January 2011 at 14:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Everybody got the mouth, what one can do is tight-lips his own mouth and let the work speaks itself, and let other mouths do the talking.:cool:
Posts: 1,010
By: totoro - 11th January 2011 at 14:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
When we use the high res pic from underneath, shown a couple of posts back, and run it through contrast/brightness correction in photoshop, one can see a very faint long line right in the middle of the underbelly, more or less in the same position where f22 has its line.
Posts: 1,114
By: medal64 - 11th January 2011 at 14:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Does the weapon bays also invisible:D Seems like there is no enough space for the side weapons bay (maybe for fuel tanks) but the central body looks quite big! Waiting for high quality pictures:confused:
[ATTACH]191620[/ATTACH]
Posts: 919
By: Showtime 100 - 11th January 2011 at 14:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hahaha.. Don't you know they slip some sour wine before they wink all these rubbish? :rolleyes:
Russia sources are full of BS and sourgrapes. If you can believe their words, Dog can fly too.
First they passes false info of 117S engine on J-20 to Janes and was reported. But now very clear, every single thing on J-20 that fly is domestic. Now they backtrack but still dare to claim China wanted to buy 117S.
Remember Russia media report abt China buying Su-33 and Su-35 few years ago. Guess until now what thing has go thru???
Posts: 130
By: Colombamike - 11th January 2011 at 15:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Great pictures for a [futur] great plane, better and more capable than the F-35:D
Posts: 4,461
By: Scorpion82 - 11th January 2011 at 15:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
@Rookh the MiG 1.44 was first flown on 29th February 2000 and just conducted two flights.
Posts: 20
By: visitant - 11th January 2011 at 15:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Here comes weapons bay:D
Posts: 1,010
By: totoro - 11th January 2011 at 15:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm not saying there are side bays, but in theory there is enough clearence for them. Even if j20 is only 19 m long, there is a bit over 4 meters from the edge of the intake to the edge of the landing gear bay. If j20 is 20 meters long, said distance is closer to 4,5 meters.
Posts: 919
By: Showtime 100 - 11th January 2011 at 15:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If strain yr eyes abit. You can see the weapon bay hatch...
I bet J-20 will have the same load as F-22. 2 WVRAAM plus 6 BVRAAM