Turkish Air Force - News & Discussion

By: medal64 - 20th March 2013 at 13:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

That's more than a fine decission but again - and I hope I did not offend anyone since my question was simply a question - bu I have that strange feeling (as also noted by Hurriyet) that in mind of the requirements, technocal capabilities, budget and most of all desired solutions ("something in the class of may be PAK FA or J-20, i.e two-engine, heavy and maneoverable") .... isn't this a simply unrealistic altitude on behalf or the Turkish side ???

A medium-weight class fighter similar to a J-21/31 maybe but even this is a heavy burden ... but something like a T50 !??? :eek:

Deino

From the preliminary stages of the project its stated that the new aircraft is to be created mainly to replace the aging F-4 and F-16s and also it will be placed between F-16 and F-35 so i think it will be right an J-31/KF-X class aircraft with maybe bigger weapons bays to increase its bombing capabilities. And as for today its a serious target to create a new fighter aircraft but if we mention that this bird gonna be created in 2020s its so archievable with the Turkish defence industry's increasing capabilities. Also i would like to inform that the agreement contains the techical equipment transfer too ;)

By: swerve - 20th March 2013 at 14:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Turkish industry makes a lot of components for airliners & helicopters, a variety of military electronics, has assembled hundreds of F-16s, & upgraded F-16s & various other types, but has no experience of designing high-performance aircraft.

I can imagine it assembling a fighter, supplying a lot of the components, sub-assemblies, & some of the electronics, & integrating its own weapons, but I think it'd need foreign design leadership, & would have to import engines, radar, & quite a few other critical elements.

By: medal64 - 20th March 2013 at 14:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Turkish industry makes a lot of components for airliners & helicopters, a variety of military electronics, has assembled hundreds of F-16s, & upgraded F-16s & various other types, but has no experience of designing high-performance aircraft.

I can imagine it assembling a fighter, supplying a lot of the components, sub-assemblies, & some of the electronics, & integrating its own weapons, but I think it'd need foreign design leadership, & would have to import engines, radar, & quite a few other critical elements.

We will see but as far as i know its designing by the Turkish specialists and taking suggestions from the universities as the technical support from the Saab company. As from the reports development work about the aesa radar is in progress at the Aselsan company also some progress about the jet engine too. But its sure there are some areas that Turkish defence industry have to get expertise too.

By: Sign - 20th March 2013 at 21:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

i wonder why theres a need for taking a new generic fighter to the market, why not take one step futher and make a UCAV. Thats a great complement to the market and even a good sell on export?

By: Rii - 20th March 2013 at 22:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

i wonder why theres a need for taking a new generic fighter to the market

I hadn't noticed that the market was overflowing with light 5G fighters.

By: obligatory - 20th March 2013 at 22:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

There are a couple of issues with light stealth fighters,
one is that they will still cost more to operate,
another is that it takes further miniaturization of weapons before the volume comes down to the point where the fighter is aerodynamic

By: Rii - 20th March 2013 at 22:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Easy enough to do a light 5G A2A fighter for air defence purposes, the problem comes in carrying larger A2G munitions. Could solve that with a podded system for A2G config (like F-15SE Conformal Weapons Bay or Super Hornet Roadmap pods, but better on account of being designed in from the start) or alternative relying on cruise missiles for limited strike requirements.

By: Sign - 20th March 2013 at 23:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

I hadn't noticed that the market was overflowing with light 5G fighters.

A 5 gen smallest formfactor should be about F-35, due to big ordinance is supposed to be carried internaly. if only optimized for light
A-A (2 medium or 4 small missiles?) this would be a narrow requirement for a modern AF and a ambitios project.

As no revolution in downsizeing weapons packageing is coming soon.. i think we have a problem, maybe in a future laser era this is solved :)
But if you get rid of the pilot and all the systems around him/her, like seat, canopy instruments, cockpit, OBOGS, 9 suit systems etc. you could downsize the plane.
Probably 6 gen...

By: Rii - 21st March 2013 at 00:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

For an A2A fighter you aren't limited to a big bay that takes up enormous room in the fuselage. You can run much smaller bays along the sides of the fuselage like Typhoon conformal carriage, but enclosed. Another option would be to have CWB-style bays but internal to airframe, sized to house 2-3 missiles each. Many things are possible with only AAM-sized munitions to consider.

By: obligatory - 21st March 2013 at 00:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

There is a 3rd way, making it a light fighter, and if and when heavy munition is called for -as in stationary target,
then divide the workload into one spotter (if needed) and another with stand off munition (CM)

By: Sign - 21st March 2013 at 06:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

For an A2A fighter you aren't limited to a big bay that takes up enormous room in the fuselage. You can run much smaller bays along the sides of the fuselage like Typhoon conformal carriage, but enclosed. Another option would be to have CWB-style bays but internal to airframe, sized to house 2-3 missiles each. Many things are possible with only AAM-sized munitions to consider.

first you need long/medium range missiles without fins or extremely small ones otherwise the volume of the storage cant be decreased. Also to be robust for supersonic release, the size/sturdiness of mechanics and doors still takes big volume.
IF you look at the Silent eagle, this isnt a small volume. if put on a small AC.

it takes fronal area like a F-15 intake on each side. Hang those on a gripen :). And imagine the engine and the extra fuel storage needed to compensate for that.

By: Sign - 21st March 2013 at 06:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

There is a 3rd way, making it a light fighter, and if and when heavy munition is called for -as in stationary target,
then divide the workload into one spotter (if needed) and another with stand off munition (CM)

or maybe a UCAV and a backseatdriver in a 4,5 gen fighter?

By: obligatory - 21st March 2013 at 07:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Yes, that is by far the cheapest way, for at least the next 20 years.

By: medal64 - 28th March 2013 at 20:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

And some fresh news comes from the TF-X project, according the Mr. Murat Bayar Undersecretariat for Defence Industry Ministry of National Defence, for TF-X project instead of a few design derivatives its accepted one proposal and now they are working to advance this design. According to him because of the Turkey's partnership with other nations for procurement of F-35 both aircraft will have different roles and the new aircrafts main role will be the A-A superiority. Its mainly targeted to replace with the F-16s.

Wish them good luck :cool:

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/22917638.asp

By: medal64 - 29th March 2013 at 21:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

A picture which is claimed as the representational TF-X picture from the two-day International Air&Space Power (ICAP) Conference being held in Istanbul .

[ATTACH]213085[/ATTACH]

For bigger one

http://i.imgur.com/YoPYF1c.jpg

I want to inform that its just an representational picture and after the conceptual design phase its waiting for a clear picture of the bird.

By: Tu22m - 29th March 2013 at 21:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Sure does remind me of the F16 XL in the current wing shaping.. My guess its just concept art at this moment.

By: eagle - 29th March 2013 at 21:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Lol... have they teamed up with Iran?

By: medal64 - 29th March 2013 at 21:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Lol... have they teamed up with Iran?

If you have an opportunity i advise you to visit the IDEF-2013 to see for whom Turkish companies teams up and do it themselves ;) Its your choise if you want to take a representational picture as the real one but it still continues the conceptual design phase and still have a long time for it takes its final shape.

By: hopsalot - 29th March 2013 at 21:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Lol... have they teamed up with Iran?

My understanding is that they hope to team up with Saab.

Turkey eyes replacing F-16s with locally produced fighter jets by 2023, Turkey’s defense undersecretary said yesterday.

“We’re working on the conceptual design of a new fighter jet that will replace our F-16 fighters,” Defense Industry Undersecretary Murad Bayar said yesterday on the sidelines of the two-day International Air&Space Power (ICAP) Conference being held in Istanbul.

Recently, Turkish arms manufacturer TAI has signed a technical assistance deal with Swedish Saab on technical assistance to build a fighter jet, as Daily News reported.

...

Recalling that Turkey had been one of the partners in the multinational Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) consortium that builds F-35 fighters, Bayar said the roles of the new model to be developed and the F-35 would be different. Therefore, new fighters will be configured as air-to-air planes and they will complement each other with F-35s.

Defense sources had told to Daily News that the program was exposed to the risk of a prolonged conceptual design and this would make the whole project “not very meaningful.”

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-to-replace-f-16s-with-local-jets.aspx?pageID=238&nID=43867&NewsCatID=374

So based on this it sounds like what they are shooting for is a light-weight air to air oriented fighter to compliment the F-35. Technically, as usual, the biggest question will be finding appropriate engines.

Interesting to think that Europe's first 5th generation fighter may actually come from Turkey. :cool:

By: SpudmanWP - 29th March 2013 at 22:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

A picture which is claimed as the representational TF-X picture from the two-day International Air&Space Power (ICAP) Conference being held in Istanbul .

Is it just me or do those intakes look WAY too big.