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By: - 17th December 2010 at 08:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I guess that's good, no need for Turkey to start relying on everything Korean, which is what it seems to do these days
perhaps Turkey should ask Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan to join and make it a Turko fighter.
what kind of air bases does Turkey use in defense to Bulgaria by the way?
By: - 17th December 2010 at 08:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
what kind of air bases does Turkey use in defense to Bulgaria by the way?
Balikesir and Bandirma main jet bases are responsible from west - northwest sector with a number of FOB's.
By: - 17th December 2010 at 14:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Chaldiran UAV landing at night..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-Cd7BuHOzA&feature=player_embedded
By: - 17th December 2010 at 14:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Malazgirt Unmanned Helicopter
[ATTACH]190852[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH]190851[/ATTACH]
Turkish Aerospace Industries, TAI
[ATTACH]190859[/ATTACH]
http://www.tai.com.tr/taimain.aspx
Courtesy of militaryphotos...
By: - 17th December 2010 at 22:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
TAI Anka UAV introduction video...
[ATTACH]190871[/ATTACH]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3jTEultc70&feature=player_embedded
By: - 18th December 2010 at 01:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Interesting that Turkey should decide to go it alone or seek a partner for the new fighter. Several questions come to mind and a respectful discussion on them would be interesting.
1) How much will such a program's total cost be and can Turkey afford it all on its own?
2) Will it be a 5th gen fighter or a 4.5 gen fighter like the KF-X ?
3) Single Engine or double engine ? As of now a twin engine seems likely which is different from the KF-X.
3) Since Turkey has no turbofan development program ongoing, they will look to source it from abroad like South Korea. Who will they source engines from? US or Europe?
4) Considering the aircraft it will replace (F-4 and F-16 Block 30) the aircraft will likely be in the 8 ton-12 ton empty weight category and require 2 X F-414, M-88-2/3 or Ej-200 type engines. or will they seek a single engined design with the F-35's F-135 or F-136 engines
4) What experience does Turkey have in fast jet design and development? Ranging from avionics to airframe, developing a fighter is a very time consuming, costly and difficult process, especially without an experienced partner to hold hands and guide through the process. How risky will this be for the TAF and how realistic is 2023 as a date for entry into service, when the next 2 years are going to be spent doing studies of feasibility and initial designs?
By: - 18th December 2010 at 05:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Interesting that Turkey should decide to go it alone or seek a partner for the new fighter. Several questions come to mind and a respectful discussion on them would be interesting.1) How much will such a program's total cost be and can Turkey afford it all on its own?
2) Will it be a 5th gen fighter or a 4.5 gen fighter like the KF-X ?
3) Single Engine or double engine ? As of now a twin engine seems likely which is different from the KF-X.
3) Since Turkey has no turbofan development program ongoing, they will look to source it from abroad like South Korea. Who will they source engines from? US or Europe?
4) Considering the aircraft it will replace (F-4 and F-16 Block 30) the aircraft will likely be in the 8 ton-12 ton empty weight category and require 2 X F-414, M-88-2/3 or Ej-200 type engines. or will they seek a single engined design with the F-35's F-135 or F-136 engines
4) What experience does Turkey have in fast jet design and development? Ranging from avionics to airframe, developing a fighter is a very time consuming, costly and difficult process, especially without an experienced partner to hold hands and guide through the process. How risky will this be for the TAF and how realistic is 2023 as a date for entry into service, when the next 2 years are going to be spent doing studies of feasibility and initial designs?
1) yes Turkey probably cant afford to do it on its own. may need partners. maybe from its Turko friends like Azerbaijan or Kazakhstan that is aflush with oil money. or Pakistan (some experience in aviation, close military links), or maybe even Japan. Strategically, Bulgaria is good as they are quite good strategists.
3) KFX is twin engined, either the 101 or 201 designs.
4) France hates Turkey, or maybe, they secretly love Turkey and use it to sell expensive weapons to Greece. In any case M88 seems unlikely. I think EJ200 may be good, or even F414. I hear the F414 is quite low maintainance. whether it is one or two engined will depend on the size of the aircraft. a light fighter like Gripen can supercruise with one F414. or does Turkey want to make something bigger like the Typhoon?
5) not much, but it does license build F-16s and offer upgrades, while building some other non fighter aircraft like Herkules, Ankle UAV, etc.
I think given Turkey's current abilities, it probably needs some partners like I said above.. and follow closely an existing design (base it off the F-35, X-32, McD/BaE JAST? etc) or use many off the shelf equipment.. i.e. Rafale/Typhoon/F-16E parts in a new stealthier air frame with an internal bay. It won't be no F-35, but it'll at least be better than what their neighbors have.
By: - 18th December 2010 at 09:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
4) France hates Turkey, or maybe, they secretly love Turkey and use it to sell expensive weapons to Greece. In any case M88 seems unlikely. I think EJ200 may be good, or even F414. I hear the F414 is quite low maintainance. whether it is one or two engined will depend on the size of the aircraft. a light fighter like Gripen can supercruise with one F414. or does Turkey want to make something bigger like the Typhoon?
I don't think its size going to be as big as typhoon, its probably going to be an lightweight fighter and the two seated trainer version. But sure it must have better capabilities than the aging F-16s! So I think we can call it at least 4,5 generation! But I don't know how much foreign support will the Turkish defence industry need or will they! But if we think that, its the first Turkish indigenous fighter aircraft project and some components will need to get from abroad or there will create joint ventures. Maybe a foreign partner for getting some key technologies. But the design and the integration of the systems will be done by the Turkish Aerospace Industries, TAI. So its a good project for the Turkish aerospace industries to increase their capabilities with such a complex fighter aircraft project :)
By: - 18th December 2010 at 21:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I don't think its size going to be as big as typhoon, its probably going to be an lightweight fighter and the two seated trainer version. But sure it must have better capabilities than the aging F-16s! So I think we can call it at least 4,5 generation! But I don't know how much foreign support will the Turkish defence industry need or will they! But if we think that, its the first Turkish indigenous fighter aircraft project and some components will need to get from abroad or there will create joint ventures. Maybe a foreign partner for getting some key technologies. But the design and the integration of the systems will be done by the Turkish Aerospace Industries, TAI. So its a good project for the Turkish aerospace industries to increase their capabilities with such a complex fighter aircraft project :)
It will be a tough task to better the F-16..does Turkey have experience in developing the Fly-by-wire or Fly-by-light FCS that modern fighters have? Even South Korea didn't attempt its first fighter on its own and needed Lock Mart's assistance.
That apart, what experience does Turkey have in advanced wind tunnel testing, CFD, AESA radars, electro-optical systems and in stealth technologies? The Hurkus may well be a challenging program but a new 4.5 gen fighter will be a lot more challenging. Integrating equipment sourced from abroad will be easier than developing all this in-house in such a short time-frame.
They will either have to seek a partner like EADS, Saab, Boeing or Lockheed Martin otherwise this will be an exceedingly difficult task to achieve. The approach taken by TAI for the T-129, that is going with an existing A-129 design and improving on it will be more practical.
Could this be just a bargaining tactic to get South Korea to offer more of an equal partnership in the KF-X ?
By: - 18th December 2010 at 22:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It will be a tough task to better the F-16..does Turkey have experience in developing the Fly-by-wire or Fly-by-light FCS that modern fighters have? Even South Korea didn't attempt its first fighter on its own and needed Lock Mart's assistance.That apart, what experience does Turkey have in advanced wind tunnel testing, CFD, AESA radars, electro-optical systems and in stealth technologies? The Hurkus may well be a challenging program but a new 4.5 gen fighter will be a lot more challenging. Integrating equipment sourced from abroad will be easier than developing all this in-house in such a short time-frame.
They will either have to seek a partner like EADS, Saab, Boeing or Lockheed Martin otherwise this will be an exceedingly difficult task to achieve. The approach taken by TAI for the T-129, that is going with an existing A-129 design and improving on it will be more practical.
Could this be just a bargaining tactic to get South Korea to offer more of an equal partnership in the KF-X ?
I advise you to read the news one more time, it says;
The minister said Turkey may cooperate with South Korea, but implied that this is a small possibility. "We can manufacture the new fighter aircraft with them, we don't rule this out. But the decision we have taken now calls for the production of a totally national and original aircraft," he said.
So I don't think its a tactic for getting the equal partnership for the KF-X project, its a policy for Turkey to create indigenous platforms. Turkish defence industry is advancing at CFD, AESA radars, electro-optical systems and in stealth technologies! Advise you to check these websites;
http://www.ssm.gov.tr/anasayfa/Sayfalar/default.aspx
www.aselsan.com.tr
www.roketsan.com.tr
www.havelsan.com.tr
I agree that there can be a foreign support at some specific areas but general design, software creation, system integration and probably some of the weapons will be created indigenously for the Turkish Airforce needs! Thats what the defence ministery wants ;)
By: - 18th December 2010 at 23:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
if its anything like those Asian countries with their own "national" fighter..(t-50, chinko, f-2).. the most conservative route is to work with Lockheed or Boing, give them majority share.. make an F-35 lite (or better, an X-32 lite)
By: - 19th December 2010 at 00:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sorry guys in being - maybe - a bit too pessimistic, but itn't that a bit too much for the Turkish Industries to develop a fighter of that class ??
In a time where most other contries with much more expieriences can't do that ... Sorry, but IMO that's at least one number too big.
Deino
By: - 19th December 2010 at 01:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have the same fear. Its a costly endeavour and without having done a 3rd generation or 4th gen fighter as yet, to go directly to a 4.5 gen fighter is a HUGE jump and the timeline indicated of service entry by 2023 is too optimistic.
And from the links provided by medal64, while it seems that Turkey does have the R&D and facilities for several development programs in avionics, radar, etc. there is nothing concrete regarding any airborne radar or RCS measurement and shaping technologies, to just speak of a couple of technologies. Where is the experience in designing a fighter's FCS ? Integrating technologies from various sources is a lot less challenging than coming up with everything on their own, so an experienced partner is definitely required.
I'm not saying that it cannot be done, but its a costly affair and will definitely require a lot of foreign assistance.
By: - 19th December 2010 at 03:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
How about Turkey collaborating with China for light stealth fighter? They both have common friend Pakistan and lately China has shown interest in building up military relationship with Turkey. China could very well subsidize & help in their R&D effort, in return for special relationship with a NATO member and a gateway to Europe, and off course silencing critics on east Turkmenistan.
JMVHT only
By: - 19th December 2010 at 07:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
How about Turkey collaborating with China for light stealth fighter? They both have common friend Pakistan and lately China has shown interest in building up military relationship with Turkey. China could very well subsidize & help in their R&D effort, in return for special relationship with a NATO member and a gateway to Europe, and off course silencing critics on east Turkmenistan.JMVHT only
Turkey can get some smart devices from china but in my opinion its impossible to get an technical support from China but Pakistan is a historical friend of Turkey and they can be a good partner at development.But for technical assistance, my favourites are EADS, KAI, Ukrainen Aircraft Industries and United Aircraft Corporation (Russia).
And also as you know there are too many Turkish scientists in former soviet countries, sure Turkey wants to work with them ;)
By: - 19th December 2010 at 09:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sorry guys in being - maybe - a bit too pessimistic, but itn't that a bit too much for the Turkish Industries to develop a fighter of that class ??In a time where most other contries with much more expieriences can't do that ... Sorry, but IMO that's at least one number too big.
Deino
As you know also Yak-130 is an advanced jet trainer/light attack aircraft! Who knows lets wait and see the details of the project.
But If Turkey won't get typhoons and not keen on the KF-X project if it doesn't get equal partnership then which bird will be the Turkish airforce's front line fighter after 2020 with high quantities? Its sensible an indigenous one :cool:
By: - 19th December 2010 at 09:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As you know also Yak-130 is an advanced jet trainer/light attack aircraft! Who knows lets wait and see the details of the project.But If Turkey won't get typhoons and not keen on the KF-X project if it doesn't get equal partnership then which bird will be the Turkish airforce's front line fighter after 2020 with high quantities? Its sensible an indigenous one :cool:
What does the Yak-130 has to do with that requirement for a new fighter to replace the F-4E ??
... and YES, it will (!!) then be an indigenoius project. But does Turkey has the capabilities to do that ?? I highly doubt that, when other countries with a much longer history in developing aircraft can't do that on their own ...
Deino
By: - 19th December 2010 at 09:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
One has to admit, Turkish industry is innovative at modifying and upgrading existing platforms of many types. Take the cost-effective, stretched, multi-configured and power-upgraded M-113 APC, for just one simple example. Recent naval building ambitions is impressive, too.
In terms of a modern tactical aviation program... just an I idea I had, maybe Turkey could take a license-produced (or quasi-partnered) baseline platform, such as Gripen and 'stretch', 're-wing' and 'bolt-on' to Turk's flavor?
A poster under the handle Arquebus had made a cool 3-D model of something on that line in the "fantasy fighter" thread.
Perhaps incorporate a standardized engine type already used in the force structure to maximize economy and meet a T/W requirement if it's bigger than a Gripen, i.e. Turk's F-16 engine type?
Maybe they and Greece could make truce and partner ! :eek::confused:
By: - 19th December 2010 at 11:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In terms of a modern tactical aviation program... just an I idea I had, maybe Turkey could take a license-produced (or quasi-partnered) baseline platform, such as Gripen and 'stretch', 're-wing' and 'bolt-on' to Turk's flavor?
Exactly,
A project model like T-129 ATAK seems to be the best option, i.e take an airframe, modify it, integrate indigenous avionics into it and you have a fighter.
The MoD Vecdi Gonul stated that the new aircraft will be developed for training and combat (to support F-16 B50+ and F-35).
As for training TurAF has requirement for:
~44 (original 48) F-5 2000 for LIFT
55 T-38M (locally upgraded T-38A)
Total: ~100 AJT's.
Combat fighters:
16 F-4ETM (plus a disbanded fighter squadron)
~35 F-16C/D Block 30 (receving CCIP Lite)
~50 - 80 tactical fighters
It can safely be assumed that the new aircraft will not be a direct competitor to F-35 or F-16 B50+ but supplement them with the ability to use indigenous avionics (ASELPOD nav/targt pod, mission computers, MFD etc) and launch locally developed armamanet (HGK GPS/INS bomb, Atmaca antiship missile, wing kit munition, Demet cluster bomb, local SRAMM etc).
Since there are rumors that South Korea wants Turkey to see in KF-X programme, it seemsthis is just an option. In my opinion the options would be:
1. F-50 / T-50
2. KF-X
3. Gripen NG
4. JF-17
?
In any case I don't think complex subsystems such as engine or FBW will be developed from scratch. As for the ATAK case, Turkey did not inted to design a new engine or FADEC for the helicopter but focused on avionics and weapons systems first.
By: - 19th December 2010 at 12:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What does the Yak-130 has to do with that requirement for a new fighter to replace the F-4E ??
You are right targets are big :D They want good A2A capabilities for the new fighter, a hard task!
Posts: 547
By: orko_8 - 17th December 2010 at 08:00
A new thread for news & discussion related to developments in Turkey.
To start with, the most recent news is for the project of a jet trainer / fighter aircraft. Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) will be main contractor. Concept design phase is expected to take 2 years, with USD 20,000,000 budget.
According to the statement of MoD Vecdi Gonul, the aircraft will supplement F-16 (CCIP'ed ones) and F-35 after 2020's and replace F-4E's (F-4E 2020, F-4ETM) and F-16 Block 30s.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=turkey-to-build-8216national-original8217-fighter-aircraft-2010-12-16