By: medal64
- 19th December 2010 at 14:46Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
TEI will take part in development of engines for this fighter! Their target for 2015 to get the capabilities of design and production of aircraft engines and in 2020 worth 1,2-2 billion$ sale.
Its possible to create a new corporation which includes TAI and TEI for the creation and the production of this bird
By: J-20 Hotdog
- 19th December 2010 at 22:59Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Exactly,
A project model like T-129 ATAK seems to be the best option, i.e take an airframe, modify it, integrate indigenous avionics into it and you have a fighter.
The MoD Vecdi Gonul stated that the new aircraft will be developed for training and combat (to support F-16 B50+ and F-35).
It can safely be assumed that the new aircraft will not be a direct competitor to F-35 or F-16 B50+ but supplement them with the ability to use indigenous avionics (ASELPOD nav/targt pod, mission computers, MFD etc) and launch locally developed armamanet (HGK GPS/INS bomb, Atmaca antiship missile, wing kit munition, Demet cluster bomb, local SRAMM etc).
Since there are rumors that South Korea wants Turkey to see in KF-X programme, it seemsthis is just an option. In my opinion the options would be:
1. F-50 / T-50
2. KF-X
3. Gripen NG
4. JF-17
?
In any case I don't think complex subsystems such as engine or FBW will be developed from scratch. As for the ATAK case, Turkey did not inted to design a new engine or FADEC for the helicopter but focused on avionics and weapons systems first.
but there is no A-129 of stealth aircraft if thats what Turkey wants. you have only F-35 or Pak-fa to work on, and i doubt either country will allow turkey to make the extent of modifications it could do on the T-129..
Gripen on the other hand may be possible or JF-17. but why would Turkey want those!?
New
Posts: 1,551
By: PLA-MKII
- 20th December 2010 at 01:28Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think that a modified and tailored to Turkey's requirements, JF-17 Block II based design may just be right for Turkey and could come with real TOT. The Gripen NG could be another excellent choice. These are obviously going to be supporting planes for JSFs.
Then again, Pakistan needs to counter the PAKFA and this may be a great opportunity to work with multiple partners and share subsystems at the least if not entire platforms in building something in another generation than the Gripen or JF-17 can afford.
New
Posts: 3,442
By: J-20 Hotdog
- 20th December 2010 at 01:30Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think that a modified and tailored to Turkey's requirements, JF-17 Block II based design may just be right for Turkey and could come with real TOT. The Gripen NG could be another excellent choice. These are obviously going to be supporting planes for JSFs.
Then again, Pakistan needs to counter the PAKFA and this may be a great opportunity to work with multiple partners and share subsystems at the least if not entire platforms in building something in another generation than the Gripen or JF-17 can afford.
why would Turkey want something inferior (or equal level) to what they currently have and ordered? late block F-16s and F-35s?
but I agree, it could be a good chance for Pakistan and Turkey to make something new together.
Plus Turkey is shifting away from the US and the West and becoming Islamized, so they may have to face towards China and Pakistan by default as Israel and the US no longer trusts them.
By: medal64
- 20th December 2010 at 21:26Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Plus Turkey is shifting away from the US and the West and becoming Islamized, so they may have to face towards China and Pakistan by default as Israel and the US no longer trusts them.
Its hard to say whole country is becoming islamized ;) Today still Turkey and the USA strategic partners and forseable future it won't change! So in the future, as they did in the past Turkey and the USA will work together. But today Turkey wants to increse its influence in the world and develops new projects. And the booming economy supports it. Thats how we see such projects :cool:
By: niksi
- 20th December 2010 at 22:36Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What happened with a "Mi-28 stop-gap option" till T-129 comes into inventory?
Are there any other "stop-gap alternatives" or TuAF will wait for their customized Agustas?
New
Posts: 3,442
By: J-20 Hotdog
- 20th December 2010 at 22:58Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What happened with a "Mi-28 stop-gap option" till T-129 comes into inventory?
Are there any other "stop-gap alternatives" or TuAF will wait for their customized Agustas?
last I heard, the Turks wanted more Cobras as a stop gap measure. maybe what you read was that the Turks were considering the Mi-28 as a stop-gap.. but ultimately ended up going for the cobra.
New
Posts: 1,551
By: PLA-MKII
- 21st December 2010 at 00:01Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
why would Turkey want something inferior (or equal level) to what they currently have and ordered? late block F-16s and F-35s?
but I agree, it could be a good chance for Pakistan and Turkey to make something new together.
Plus Turkey is shifting away from the US and the West and becoming Islamized, so they may have to face towards China and Pakistan by default as Israel and the US no longer trusts them.
Yes, there is some thought to that. Advantages of the JF-17 / Gripen over the F-16:
1. Full TOT and ability for TAI to do just as Orko says: take an airframe and integrate.
2. Replace older platforms cost effectively
Between, how about the J-10B for that? That'd be interesting in Turkish colors and would be a real pain for the Greeks; a sure M2000 and F-16 counter.
I definitely would like to see Turkey moving more towards a Turkey-Pakistan-China nexus. I have heard rumors of very close cooperation between Turkey and Pakistan under the table regarding some very sensitive technologies. Maybe a newer generation program may not be a bad idea.
New
Posts: 3,337
By: BlackArcher
- 21st December 2010 at 00:56Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
One has to look at what goals a partnership can bring to Turkey-
1) Funding- and a 4.5 gen fighter will cost a heck of a lot just in setting up the necessary infrastructure to design and develop such a fighter.
2) Infusion of experience and technology as well as an assured sale of XX number of these fighters, which will bring down unit price and make the fighter more affordable for possible exports.
Lets take KAI as an example here. They spent on the T-50 program with Lock Mart fulfilling offset obligations by supporting the program. The design takes very heavily from the F-16 and yet since it involves a new and smaller fighter, it requires a lot of original design work as well. Much of the T-50 program relied on Lock Mart's knowledge and its F-16 and F-35 experience. But KAI, having spent the required money to come up with the facilities for R&D on the T-50, and having done a lot of the ground work on the design, is only now in a position to reap the rewards with the F/A-50 and then the KF-X. They used a similar approach on the Surion too, and only now when they are more confident, are they thinking of producing an all-new attack helicopter design. And they already had the KT-1 Woong Bee experience prior to this, so they had as much experience earlier itself as TAI does now.
TAI's timeline is so optimistic that it would be a rather foolish to go ahead with a 2023 in service date and no other major partner (like Boeing, Lock Mart, EADS, Saab, UAC) to do a lot of hand-holding and guiding and with a lot of off-the-shelf and later on integrated equipment like on the Gripen NG. I mean look at the PAK-FA's T-50 prototype flying today and with all the engine, airframe, radar and integration experience that the Russians have and all the experience that the Indians have in avionics, computers and other subsystems, they still expect the PAK-FA to only enter service in 2020. The F-35 program, its development issues and its timelines also support this.
Pakistan or the JF-17 Block II is not the ideal partner in this sense since the JF-17 is essentially a CAC program and relies almost totally on Chinese R&D. Whereas Pakistan is now establishing manufacturing for it and has gained mostly in that respect and some abilities to henceforth integrate avionics without Chinese help. So what does TAI gain from such a partnership when this new fighter is supposed to better F-16 Block 50s at a later date and that cannot be expected from the JF-17, for which even matching the F-16 Block 50 at a later date would be a huge achievement ? Maybe some funding but not enough for an equal partnership which will cost a billion to a couple of billion at least which Pakistan likely cannot afford since it has J-10s to acquire and at a later date the J-20 too.
And what would Pakistan gain if the JF-17 Block II is chosen ? A heck of a lot- but if the offer is to participate in a totally new program instead of just taking the JF-17 and developing a variant, then it might be too costly for Pakistan to participate, since for sure future JF-17 development will suffer as a result of diverted funding.
The fact is that for TAI, production is not likely going to be the bigger problem since they have been manufacturing and upgrading F-16s locally- it is the mastering of the varied and complex technologies that go into the fighter design and its associated systems right from the beginning that is the bigger headache and requires someone like Boeing, Lock Mart, EADS, Dassault, Saab or UAC to be involved from the beginning.
As I've said before- maybe the best approach would be partner someone like Saab on the Gripen NG and develop a new variant of it, one that has substantial changes to the airframe, beyond just modified landing gear, fairings and new engines like it does have now. Here, a re-sized and possibly 10-15% larger Gripen NG with semi-conformal weapons carriage and a couple of modestly sized internal bays to hold some A2A or A2G weapons and conformal fuel tanks to reduce RCS when carrying drop tanks would be a true 4.5 gen fighter. On the same side, ask GE to develop an even higher thrust variant of the F414 using CMCs to use on this 10-15% heavier fighter.
It will be cheaper to develop than a fully new 4.5 gen fighter and will offer substantially better capabilities than the F-4E-2000 or the F-16 Block 30s, heck even the F-16 Block 50 would pale against such a fighter. If it is affordable then it will hold the possibility of being exported to nations that don't want a F-35 and cannot afford the larger PAK-FA/FGFA or the Chinese J-20's upfront acquisition or maintenance costs over lifetime. But then a US sourced engine will become an issue since the US will not want any foreign fighter to eat into F-35 sales and so the engine issue will also have to be resolved separately.
For funding, they could also look towards Saudi Arabia or UAE. UAE especially has been very keen on absorbing technology and may well be interested in a future replacement for their F-16 Block 60s, especially since they seem ready to retire fighters with plenty of life and capabilities left in them like the Mirage-2000-9.
Time will tell as to what choices are made and how successful they are but this is an interesting program (that is if it does go beyond being a concept).
By: insomnia.delhi
- 21st December 2010 at 03:25Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
why would Turkey want something inferior (or equal level) to what they currently have and ordered? late block F-16s and F-35s?
but I agree, it could be a good chance for Pakistan and Turkey to make something new together.
Plus Turkey is shifting away from the US and the West and becoming Islamized, so they may have to face towards China and Pakistan by default as Israel and the US no longer trusts them.
I think Turkey has both money and big regional aspirations, and their economy is rising.
If the Turkish Air Force is looking to replace their F-4's, they should go for a independent program, F-35 and F-16s provide them with a available backup for any delays.
A JV with PRC lead and Pakistani Involvement will be faster however they will miss out on some very high technology European and American equipment and consulting, and be forced to share the overall program with the two other nations, with PRC in a very dominant position.
I think they already have the aviation industry set up to start the program on their own, with European/American consulting and equipment. The jump in capability that their Aviation industry will get from the program will be worth the effort.
New
Posts: 3,442
By: J-20 Hotdog
- 21st December 2010 at 17:56Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, there is some thought to that. Advantages of the JF-17 / Gripen over the F-16:
1. Full TOT and ability for TAI to do just as Orko says: take an airframe and integrate.
2. Replace older platforms cost effectively
Between, how about the J-10B for that? That'd be interesting in Turkish colors and would be a real pain for the Greeks; a sure M2000 and F-16 counter.
I definitely would like to see Turkey moving more towards a Turkey-Pakistan-China nexus. I have heard rumors of very close cooperation between Turkey and Pakistan under the table regarding some very sensitive technologies. Maybe a newer generation program may not be a bad idea.
I disagree on the first half. Turkey doesn't have hundreds of J-7s or MiG-21s that need replacement. Its a modern air force with later model F-16s and will be acquring F-35. The JF-17 is a downgrade for them. It can't even replace the F-4 in the A2G role as it doesn't have the range or payload capability of the F-4.
the J-10 could be interesting but i doubt China would let Turkey much TOT on it.
By: orko_8
- 23rd December 2010 at 12:50Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This should be interesting. Turkey invites Greece to Anatolian Eagle Aerial War Games. http://bit.ly/hvIUl3
Greece (as well as China) were NOT invited to Anatolian Eagle. They were invited to TurAF's centennial celebrations & airshow in Izmir (4-5 June) and European Air Forces Conference on 1-3 June.
By: Usman
- 23rd December 2010 at 13:11Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Greece (as well as China) were NOT invited to Anatolian Eagle. They were invited to TurAF's centennial celebrations & airshow in Izmir (4-5 June) and European Air Forces Conference on 1-3 June.
Posts: 1,114
By: medal64 - 19th December 2010 at 14:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
TEI will take part in development of engines for this fighter! Their target for 2015 to get the capabilities of design and production of aircraft engines and in 2020 worth 1,2-2 billion$ sale.
Its possible to create a new corporation which includes TAI and TEI for the creation and the production of this bird
http://www.tei.com.tr/yeni/EN/
A detailed news in Turkish
http://www.nethaber.com/Ekonomi/171383/TURKIYE-2020DEN-SONRA-KENDI-SAVAS
Posts: 3,442
By: J-20 Hotdog - 19th December 2010 at 22:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
but there is no A-129 of stealth aircraft if thats what Turkey wants. you have only F-35 or Pak-fa to work on, and i doubt either country will allow turkey to make the extent of modifications it could do on the T-129..
Gripen on the other hand may be possible or JF-17. but why would Turkey want those!?
Posts: 1,551
By: PLA-MKII - 20th December 2010 at 01:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think that a modified and tailored to Turkey's requirements, JF-17 Block II based design may just be right for Turkey and could come with real TOT. The Gripen NG could be another excellent choice. These are obviously going to be supporting planes for JSFs.
Then again, Pakistan needs to counter the PAKFA and this may be a great opportunity to work with multiple partners and share subsystems at the least if not entire platforms in building something in another generation than the Gripen or JF-17 can afford.
Posts: 3,442
By: J-20 Hotdog - 20th December 2010 at 01:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
why would Turkey want something inferior (or equal level) to what they currently have and ordered? late block F-16s and F-35s?
but I agree, it could be a good chance for Pakistan and Turkey to make something new together.
Plus Turkey is shifting away from the US and the West and becoming Islamized, so they may have to face towards China and Pakistan by default as Israel and the US no longer trusts them.
Posts: 1,114
By: medal64 - 20th December 2010 at 21:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Its hard to say whole country is becoming islamized ;) Today still Turkey and the USA strategic partners and forseable future it won't change! So in the future, as they did in the past Turkey and the USA will work together. But today Turkey wants to increse its influence in the world and develops new projects. And the booming economy supports it. Thats how we see such projects :cool:
Posts: 402
By: niksi - 20th December 2010 at 22:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What happened with a "Mi-28 stop-gap option" till T-129 comes into inventory?
Are there any other "stop-gap alternatives" or TuAF will wait for their customized Agustas?
Posts: 3,442
By: J-20 Hotdog - 20th December 2010 at 22:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
last I heard, the Turks wanted more Cobras as a stop gap measure. maybe what you read was that the Turks were considering the Mi-28 as a stop-gap.. but ultimately ended up going for the cobra.
Posts: 1,551
By: PLA-MKII - 21st December 2010 at 00:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, there is some thought to that. Advantages of the JF-17 / Gripen over the F-16:
1. Full TOT and ability for TAI to do just as Orko says: take an airframe and integrate.
2. Replace older platforms cost effectively
Between, how about the J-10B for that? That'd be interesting in Turkish colors and would be a real pain for the Greeks; a sure M2000 and F-16 counter.
I definitely would like to see Turkey moving more towards a Turkey-Pakistan-China nexus. I have heard rumors of very close cooperation between Turkey and Pakistan under the table regarding some very sensitive technologies. Maybe a newer generation program may not be a bad idea.
Posts: 3,337
By: BlackArcher - 21st December 2010 at 00:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
One has to look at what goals a partnership can bring to Turkey-
1) Funding- and a 4.5 gen fighter will cost a heck of a lot just in setting up the necessary infrastructure to design and develop such a fighter.
2) Infusion of experience and technology as well as an assured sale of XX number of these fighters, which will bring down unit price and make the fighter more affordable for possible exports.
Lets take KAI as an example here. They spent on the T-50 program with Lock Mart fulfilling offset obligations by supporting the program. The design takes very heavily from the F-16 and yet since it involves a new and smaller fighter, it requires a lot of original design work as well. Much of the T-50 program relied on Lock Mart's knowledge and its F-16 and F-35 experience. But KAI, having spent the required money to come up with the facilities for R&D on the T-50, and having done a lot of the ground work on the design, is only now in a position to reap the rewards with the F/A-50 and then the KF-X. They used a similar approach on the Surion too, and only now when they are more confident, are they thinking of producing an all-new attack helicopter design. And they already had the KT-1 Woong Bee experience prior to this, so they had as much experience earlier itself as TAI does now.
TAI's timeline is so optimistic that it would be a rather foolish to go ahead with a 2023 in service date and no other major partner (like Boeing, Lock Mart, EADS, Saab, UAC) to do a lot of hand-holding and guiding and with a lot of off-the-shelf and later on integrated equipment like on the Gripen NG. I mean look at the PAK-FA's T-50 prototype flying today and with all the engine, airframe, radar and integration experience that the Russians have and all the experience that the Indians have in avionics, computers and other subsystems, they still expect the PAK-FA to only enter service in 2020. The F-35 program, its development issues and its timelines also support this.
Pakistan or the JF-17 Block II is not the ideal partner in this sense since the JF-17 is essentially a CAC program and relies almost totally on Chinese R&D. Whereas Pakistan is now establishing manufacturing for it and has gained mostly in that respect and some abilities to henceforth integrate avionics without Chinese help. So what does TAI gain from such a partnership when this new fighter is supposed to better F-16 Block 50s at a later date and that cannot be expected from the JF-17, for which even matching the F-16 Block 50 at a later date would be a huge achievement ? Maybe some funding but not enough for an equal partnership which will cost a billion to a couple of billion at least which Pakistan likely cannot afford since it has J-10s to acquire and at a later date the J-20 too.
And what would Pakistan gain if the JF-17 Block II is chosen ? A heck of a lot- but if the offer is to participate in a totally new program instead of just taking the JF-17 and developing a variant, then it might be too costly for Pakistan to participate, since for sure future JF-17 development will suffer as a result of diverted funding.
The fact is that for TAI, production is not likely going to be the bigger problem since they have been manufacturing and upgrading F-16s locally- it is the mastering of the varied and complex technologies that go into the fighter design and its associated systems right from the beginning that is the bigger headache and requires someone like Boeing, Lock Mart, EADS, Dassault, Saab or UAC to be involved from the beginning.
As I've said before- maybe the best approach would be partner someone like Saab on the Gripen NG and develop a new variant of it, one that has substantial changes to the airframe, beyond just modified landing gear, fairings and new engines like it does have now. Here, a re-sized and possibly 10-15% larger Gripen NG with semi-conformal weapons carriage and a couple of modestly sized internal bays to hold some A2A or A2G weapons and conformal fuel tanks to reduce RCS when carrying drop tanks would be a true 4.5 gen fighter. On the same side, ask GE to develop an even higher thrust variant of the F414 using CMCs to use on this 10-15% heavier fighter.
It will be cheaper to develop than a fully new 4.5 gen fighter and will offer substantially better capabilities than the F-4E-2000 or the F-16 Block 30s, heck even the F-16 Block 50 would pale against such a fighter. If it is affordable then it will hold the possibility of being exported to nations that don't want a F-35 and cannot afford the larger PAK-FA/FGFA or the Chinese J-20's upfront acquisition or maintenance costs over lifetime. But then a US sourced engine will become an issue since the US will not want any foreign fighter to eat into F-35 sales and so the engine issue will also have to be resolved separately.
For funding, they could also look towards Saudi Arabia or UAE. UAE especially has been very keen on absorbing technology and may well be interested in a future replacement for their F-16 Block 60s, especially since they seem ready to retire fighters with plenty of life and capabilities left in them like the Mirage-2000-9.
Time will tell as to what choices are made and how successful they are but this is an interesting program (that is if it does go beyond being a concept).
Posts: 411
By: insomnia.delhi - 21st December 2010 at 03:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think Turkey has both money and big regional aspirations, and their economy is rising.
If the Turkish Air Force is looking to replace their F-4's, they should go for a independent program, F-35 and F-16s provide them with a available backup for any delays.
A JV with PRC lead and Pakistani Involvement will be faster however they will miss out on some very high technology European and American equipment and consulting, and be forced to share the overall program with the two other nations, with PRC in a very dominant position.
I think they already have the aviation industry set up to start the program on their own, with European/American consulting and equipment. The jump in capability that their Aviation industry will get from the program will be worth the effort.
Posts: 3,442
By: J-20 Hotdog - 21st December 2010 at 17:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I disagree on the first half. Turkey doesn't have hundreds of J-7s or MiG-21s that need replacement. Its a modern air force with later model F-16s and will be acquring F-35. The JF-17 is a downgrade for them. It can't even replace the F-4 in the A2G role as it doesn't have the range or payload capability of the F-4.
the J-10 could be interesting but i doubt China would let Turkey much TOT on it.
Posts: 307
By: kursed - 23rd December 2010 at 02:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This should be interesting. Turkey invites Greece to Anatolian Eagle Aerial War Games. http://bit.ly/hvIUl3
Posts: 547
By: orko_8 - 23rd December 2010 at 12:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Greece (as well as China) were NOT invited to Anatolian Eagle. They were invited to TurAF's centennial celebrations & airshow in Izmir (4-5 June) and European Air Forces Conference on 1-3 June.
Official statement: http://www.hvkk.tsk.tr/PageSub/BasinDuyurulari/Haber/HaberDetay.aspx?HID=1401
Posts: 263
By: Usman - 23rd December 2010 at 13:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I am told that the Pakistani Sherdil team equipped with K-8P will be participating in the celebrations as well.
Posts: 1,114
By: medal64 - 24th December 2010 at 21:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Second Anka assembly
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President Abdullah Gul checking the modernised F-16s and Anka flight console
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F-5 Modernisation
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Posts: 547
By: orko_8 - 25th December 2010 at 09:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Those are the new F-16s produed under Peace Onyx IV and the last photo is of a T-38 being modernized under T-38M Ari project.
Posts: 1,114
By: medal64 - 25th December 2010 at 09:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks for info my friend Orko:)
Posts: 1,114
By: medal64 - 1st January 2011 at 09:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Anka conducted its first flight before 2011 :)
After an 14 munites flight landed the airbase safely.The next target is to 23000ft and 18 hours flight:diablo:
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Posts: 547
By: orko_8 - 4th January 2011 at 18:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
3 x F-4ETM Simsek's in formation:
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/7/8/4/1833487.jpg
Posts: 1,114
By: medal64 - 4th January 2011 at 22:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
TurAF F-16s...:)
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