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By: - 22nd May 2010 at 21:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Is this the russian T-50 or the S Korean T50? :)
By: - 22nd May 2010 at 21:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Gosh.. Yet another F-35 or T-50 thread is probbably what this fine but suffering forum needs the least. (Ok, another Tejas thread wold probbably hav been even worse). :(
By: - 22nd May 2010 at 21:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well lets give it a chance shall we..:)
I'll go first and i'll stick to the price per aircraft for now(fly away price)..
100mill$ for the Pak-FA?
130mill$ for the F-35A?
How does this sound?
And what will the maintaining/operating cost be?
Thanks
By: - 22nd May 2010 at 21:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I know what id rather have... :D
By: - 22nd May 2010 at 23:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I really like the idea of the Korean T-50 matching the F-35..
The smaller size will give it a good chance!
By: - 22nd May 2010 at 23:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well lets give it a chance shall we..:)I'll go first and i'll stick to the price per aircraft for now(fly away price)..
100mill$ for the Pak-FA?
130mill$ for the F-35A?How does this sound?
And what will the maintaining/operating cost be?Thanks
Its going to be difficult not to have any weight or cost grow on the Russian fighter. war planes tend to go up in weight and cost and not down.
By: - 23rd May 2010 at 00:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I personally have my doubts about the 'very stealthy' comment regarding the F-35.
Other than that, comparing future T-50 with future F-35 is like comparing Su-27 to F-16C.
By: - 23rd May 2010 at 00:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
how is that? you accept the stealthy claims of the Russians, but you consider the Americans as Liars about the F-35s RCS?
By: - 23rd May 2010 at 01:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Oh god ...well imo i know where this thread heads fast ,eventually some folks going " Russkies is stupid man ,they cant do anything man , they copy everything from us man , America f** yeah man !" and so forth...:(
Anyway in my very un-educated opinion ( compared to other folks here who are actually involved in the aviation field), i too fail to see how the F-35 LO shaping is better than T-50's, i meen look how many bumps the F-35 has on it , bumps in the intake , bumps for cannon and heat exchanger , bumps under the fuselge and wing roots , bumps for the tail-hook( on F-35A/B i'm not talking about C!), the shape of the fins , the amount of angle alignment on the front part ...they apply REDUCTION measures for these bumps , they use serrated panels on the airframe& engine petals and so forth...and they use that "magical" composite skin impregnated RAM...but will this be enough?
The T-50 now ...isnt it a much cleaner airframe ( except off-course the two bumps under the wings, but they have RCS reduction features aswell ) , more care to the forward part LO shaping compared to F-35( very much a la F-22 in term of preponderence) , the shape of the wings ( see the wingtips ...they made them a la F-22 because there is no other way to shape them in order to reduce a bit of RCS!)?
The rear of the too aircraft is roughly the same in terms of RCS reduction , but imo i see a slight advantage for T-50 there too ( very small angled fins and stabilators).
On another note tho, F-35 is a bit smaller than T-50 , and that inherently gives it a slightly lower RCS , which also meens the T-50 needs more LO features to equal or best ...but in the front aspect , if the F-22 is better than F-35 , so will T-50...
In the realm of speculation , well we know T-50 has a largely composite skin , so how do we know it doesnt have the same "magical" impregnated RAM too? ( at least the production version)
How do we know T-50 wont get a DIRCM aswell? and when is this device planned for F-35 , Block 5 right ? 2020-ish ? How about the T-50 missiles, no not the RVV-SD and MD, but the likes of 9M100 and others, Mraams and Lraams which it seems are planned for the production aircraft ?
In term of electronics , i think peeps are too quick to dismiss what the russians can do ...you know , i have never seen so far anything sort -off "official" about the performance of various late generation american radars ( for instance) you only hear things like "outstanding" "unbeatable", "10 times better" and so on , and what some folks CLAIM because they heard somehwere...AFAIK when i'm gonna see some Westinghouse or NG leaflets with even the most basic performance data for what their radars ( and other systems) can do , like the russians do regularely for the last what , 20 years, i'll take whatever the yanks claim about their alleged superiority with a grain of salt ...maby the russian way of design of thinking might be different , but they just go on a different road to the same place...
Speaking of radars ,for instance look at the Irbis ...350-400km detection range for a 3 sqm target ,which is insane, i meen can you even go further than that? ( except off-course ,towads improving the low RCS targets detection&tracking range). Can anyone claim that the T-50 radar wont be at least as good , or even better ? How about the cheeck arrays , i'm thinking why cant the T-50 launch a Doppler-notch attack on the F-35 , is AESA somehow immune to the D-notch?
Anyway, most of this is just ( my) speculation, and imo i hope these two jets will never actually meet in combat ( tho who knows who the yanks are gonna bomb next ? :D), but again ,hypotethically, in my very un-educated opinion , T-50 vs F-35 ,one on one, in the ring , the F-35 is toast...:)( yes , yes i know , numbers , suport assets, informational superiority, training etc etc...but thats another story)
The only aircraft that can go with the T-50 in the ring in the 2020 timeframe is F-22...and the other way around aswell... ;) ( oh and probably J-XX with either , too!)
OK enough for tonite , thanks!
By: - 23rd May 2010 at 01:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It is always very hard to put one prototype against another prototype .
Just for the sake to be understood , in 2020 , I take any Russian T-50 (or else) over an upgraded F-35 , easily :cool:
Cheers .
By: - 23rd May 2010 at 01:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Will wait until both aircraft are operational. Unfortunately this may be in 2020 yet.
By: - 23rd May 2010 at 02:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What point is there to compare a fighter with a bomber ?
Ok there is a point in comparing fundamental differences in what is sought for,
like high speed & superagility vs good loitering endurance,
and see how the designs by necessity must differ, but in this case it differ more then would be necessary, due F-35B commonality.
But i would want to know military speed and top speed on both,
F-22 will no doubt be a closer match in both role and specs.
By: - 23rd May 2010 at 02:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We are 10 years away from 2020 and I can already see this :
Give the "thing" top notch Aesa radar , long range 5th gen IRST , long range IR missiles (200km+) , very good to excellent ECMs and you end up with an aircraft specialized in killing stealth platforms :cool:
Cheers .
By: - 23rd May 2010 at 02:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We , Europeans , need to get Russia on own side on this one ! :D
Just kidding ...
Cheers .
By: - 23rd May 2010 at 05:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Blue if you think the T-50 is a match for the F-22 and F-35, it certainly has to be a match for the Rafale. Isn't it time for the French to build a large 2 engine stealthy air dominance fighter? It would be a serious threat to french interests if any northern African country got the T-50 in sufficient numbers. Im not saying the french have enemies "France terre d'éxile" I mean if a country had this jet the French would hesitate even if French interests where threatened.
By: - 23rd May 2010 at 06:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There has been a lot of talk lately about how superior the T-50 will be over the F-35 and even over the Raptor. How do you feel the fighters will match up?
It seems that since both the T-50 and F-35 are primary exports, that they have a much greater chance to meet. Please keep in mind this thread is mostly speculation and for entertainment purposes. we know very few techinal facts about either aircraft. But bases on first glances and educated guesses what to you feel will happen? Will the F-35 have the sensors to get around a energy disadvantage?
The F-35s PROs:* Advanced intergrated sensors*
* Very stealthy design*
* Much greater situational awareness, 360 degree irst*
* A fuel load greater than 4th generation types with external tanks*
* HOBs missile capable + DIRM in future upgrades*
* will be bought in great numbers maybe 2 to 1 odds*
Cons :
*Very little if any super cruise*
*NO TV nozzles*
* limited A2a Missile load*T-50 pros so far
* It looks like it has good kinematic performance*
*super cruise*
* Lots of Lots of Aesa radars including a rear facing one*
* TV nozzles*Cons:
* Not as stealthy from many aspects*
* older engine design*
* no dircm*
Your pros and cons are in general nothing but personal opinion and speculation. This thread is worthless.
By: - 23rd May 2010 at 07:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I really like the idea of the Korean T-50 matching the F-35..The smaller size will give it a good chance!
are you kidding or do you actually believe what you're saying ?
By: - 23rd May 2010 at 07:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Your pros and cons are in general nothing but personal opinion and speculation. This thread is worthless.
Cant you read? I said the thread was speculation! I dint claim to post the most accurate stats but ASKED for an informed opinion. ****** Look I think this board would be a better place if we did NOT have people barging in insulting people. your attitude is not necessary. I have edited my post so as not to flame.
By: - 23rd May 2010 at 11:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Its going to be difficult not to have any weight or cost grow on the Russian fighter. war planes tend to go up in weight and cost and not down.
Meaning?
Doesn't this apply to the US F-35 as well:confused:
Isn't the Flanker somewhat costly to maintain?
Don't know if the Su-35S will have better diagnostic systems like "Man Pad" plugging in and do the work.
I remember seeing a pic of Mig-29K at MAKS where a "Man pad" was present.
One thing is for sure the Pak-Fa will have those "Man Pad".
We will more than likely see an increase in the current assigned life of 4,000 hours and an MTBO of 1,000 hours on the 117S engines.
The Russian have stated they will build new infrastructure to house their units better in the future.
These measures should help to keep the Pak-Fa operating cost from exploding.
But not much to do with the fuel consumtion.. two engine vs one engine though.
Thanks
By: - 23rd May 2010 at 11:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
how is that? you accept the stealthy claims of the Russians,.. where? I don't even know what they claim, to be honest...
but you consider the Americans as Liars about the F-35s RCS?Americans? Liars? :confused:
It was you who claimed F-35 a "Very stealthy design". In what way the F-35 is "very stealthy" and T-50 is not? Their concepts looks pretty similar, IMHO..
Posts: 643
By: jessmo24 - 22nd May 2010 at 21:00
There has been a lot of talk lately about how superior the T-50 will be over the F-35 and even over the Raptor. How do you feel the fighters will match up?
It seems that since both the T-50 and F-35 are primary exports, that they have a much greater chance to meet. Please keep in mind this thread is mostly speculation and for entertainment purposes. we know very few techinal facts about either aircraft. But bases on first glances and educated guesses what to you feel will happen? Will the F-35 have the sensors to get around a energy disadvantage?
The F-35s PROs:
* Advanced intergrated sensors*
* Very stealthy design*
* Much greater situational awareness, 360 degree irst*
* A fuel load greater than 4th generation types with external tanks*
* HOBs missile capable + DIRM in future upgrades*
* will be bought in great numbers maybe 2 to 1 odds*
Cons :
*Very little if any super cruise*
*NO TV nozzles*
* limited A2a Missile load*
T-50 pros so far
* It looks like it has good kinematic performance*
*super cruise*
* Lots of Lots of Aesa radars including a rear facing one*
* TV nozzles*
Cons:
* Not as stealthy from many aspects*
* older engine design*
* no dircm*