By: duxfordhawk
- 17th January 2013 at 01:44Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A awful tragic accident that could of been so much worse had the helicopter come down on the train or tube lines, thankfully it did not. Have to say the media coverage has been upsetting through making comments that helicopter travel over London is dangerous etc . I would ask them to compare how many people died in road accidents in London today, I honestly can not recall an similar accident in London ever.
I am wary to write this as it DOES NOT prove that there was no lights on the crane or tower when the accident happened but here goes.
When my wife and I were on a train into Waterloo on Christmas Eve my wife noted that there was not and red lights on the crane or tower that evening. It did seem odd at the time but didn't think anything much of it until heard about the accident.
As to the crane there has definitely been a crane of that sort of height in place when I took this photograph in July although it may not be the same one.
By: skyskooter
- 17th January 2013 at 09:39Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Even if there was a light on the crane I assume it would be one of those constantly on red lights. They must have very limited range visibility in misty conditions and it must be difficult for a pilot to judge his distance from the obstacle even if he sees it.
Is there any reason why flashing strobe lights are not used on tall structures? They are visible for miles.
By: kev35
- 17th January 2013 at 12:01Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It was reported on the BBC yesterday that there is no requirement for a light on the crane during daylight shours, these being given as 30 minutes before sunrise. As the helicopter crashed approximately 15 minutes before official sunrise then there was apparently no requirement for any lights to be showing.
By: Moggy C
- 17th January 2013 at 12:51Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And even then, it struck me that the light (if it is on the highest point, which would seem logical) might well have been hidden firmly in the overcast
By: Orion
- 17th January 2013 at 13:22Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Two eye-witnesses on last night's BBC News said that the helicopter was in trouble with one saying that that the machine didn't sound right (or words to that effect).
I think it's most unlikely that a pilot as experienced as Pete Barnes would be flying VFR in those conditions but on the other hand I regularly see both rotary and fixed wing pilots scudding southwards here in Harrow with Harrow Hill less than a mile away due south.
By: Aces High
- 23rd January 2013 at 21:50Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I saw the report on the news, and can't help but feel that pilot Pete Barnes (who was very experienced) is not here to defend himself when the client supposedly suggested 'not to take off'. How can someone suggest not to take off, surely cancelling and rescheduling the flight was an option, not just suggesting. We only hear one side of the story.
By: paul1867
- 24th January 2013 at 09:36Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
From the report it says "Mr Caring said he (the pilot) was a "very dear friend"" which would, no doubt, have influenced the nature of the conversation.
I have a good line of sight of Crystal Palace TV mast from here from a couple of miles. I do not know how to describe visibility correctly but as a layman I would say it was fair with haze. The mast is visible with its warning lights on at 09:30 which is obviously well after sunrise.
By: T-21
- 24th January 2013 at 14:04Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Reports that the obstruction lights on the crane were only switched on at night. If so they should be on 24/7 but whether the pilot would have seen them in the visibility that morning would be greatly reduced . Are they stroboscopic ? that would catch the attention,particularly in a high cockpit workload environment getting ready to land at Battersea.
By: hampden98
- 24th January 2013 at 15:14Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Reports that the obstruction lights on the crane were only switched on at night. If so they should be on 24/7 but whether the pilot would have seen them in the visibility that morning would be greatly reduced . Are they stroboscopic ? that would catch the attention,particularly in a high cockpit workload environment getting ready to land at Battersea.
I think the crane is a red herring for want of a better phrase.
You could have lit up the crane like Christmas. Human error is the cause here. Mistakes happen. You can try to make a situation as safe as possible but life and human nature intervene. This is just an unfortunate accident and nothing more. We are all human. We are all fallible. Situations in life occur and accidents happen. It's life. Well, that's my opinion anyway.
By: Orion
- 25th January 2013 at 10:56Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
...
This is just an unfortunate accident and nothing more.
...
Disagree. This incident was caused by a respected and experienced pilot discounting the risks; he ought not to have been flying VFR in those conditions. Why he chose to do so will probably never be known, but as I said in an earlier post rotary and fixed wing aircraft quite often fly over or near to my house in North Harrow, scudding in very marginal conditions with Harrow Hill just to the south. The practice ought to be stopped.
By: paul1867
- 25th January 2013 at 12:52Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Whilst this accident does raise interesting questions we should remember that very sadly two people lost their lives and we should be sensitive to the feelings of relatives and friends. Perhaps we should only discus facts in evidence and general concerns whilst we await the conclusions of the accident investigation.
By: The Blue Max
- 25th January 2013 at 17:07Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Disagree. This incident was caused by a respected and experienced pilot discounting the risks; he ought not to have been flying VFR in those conditions. Why he chose to do so will probably never be known, but as I said in an earlier post rotary and fixed wing aircraft quite often fly over or near to my house in North Harrow, scudding in very marginal conditions with Harrow Hill just to the south. The practice ought to be stopped.
By: paul178
- 25th January 2013 at 18:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I will wait until the AAIB final report before commenting further other than to say its a great shame that two people lost their lives in this and the person on the ground can have no blame attached to him!
New
Posts: 4,796
By: ZRX61
- 28th January 2013 at 20:10Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think the crane is a red herring for want of a better phrase.
You could have lit up the crane like Christmas. Human error is the cause here.
It always is when the guy isn't around to speak for himself.
Posts: 2,828
By: EGTC - 16th January 2013 at 23:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ah yes I know how you feel!
The company I work for has an AW109 on its AOC, so I echo your sentiment.
Posts: 1,440
By: paul1867 - 17th January 2013 at 00:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sky news, right hand panel has bio of Pete Barnes.
http://news.sky.com/story/1038710/helicopter-crash-in-vauxhall-fatalities-named
Posts: 2,230
By: duxfordhawk - 17th January 2013 at 01:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A awful tragic accident that could of been so much worse had the helicopter come down on the train or tube lines, thankfully it did not. Have to say the media coverage has been upsetting through making comments that helicopter travel over London is dangerous etc . I would ask them to compare how many people died in road accidents in London today, I honestly can not recall an similar accident in London ever.
I am wary to write this as it DOES NOT prove that there was no lights on the crane or tower when the accident happened but here goes.
When my wife and I were on a train into Waterloo on Christmas Eve my wife noted that there was not and red lights on the crane or tower that evening. It did seem odd at the time but didn't think anything much of it until heard about the accident.
As to the crane there has definitely been a crane of that sort of height in place when I took this photograph in July although it may not be the same one.
The Tower, One St George Wharf . by Martin D Stitchener, on Flickr
In the end all I can say I feel for the families of those involved a very sad day.
Posts: 407
By: skyskooter - 17th January 2013 at 09:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Even if there was a light on the crane I assume it would be one of those constantly on red lights. They must have very limited range visibility in misty conditions and it must be difficult for a pilot to judge his distance from the obstacle even if he sees it.
Is there any reason why flashing strobe lights are not used on tall structures? They are visible for miles.
Posts: 6,968
By: kev35 - 17th January 2013 at 12:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It was reported on the BBC yesterday that there is no requirement for a light on the crane during daylight shours, these being given as 30 minutes before sunrise. As the helicopter crashed approximately 15 minutes before official sunrise then there was apparently no requirement for any lights to be showing.
Regards,
kev35
Posts: 16,832
By: Moggy C - 17th January 2013 at 12:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And even then, it struck me that the light (if it is on the highest point, which would seem logical) might well have been hidden firmly in the overcast
Moggy
Posts: 699
By: Orion - 17th January 2013 at 13:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Two eye-witnesses on last night's BBC News said that the helicopter was in trouble with one saying that that the machine didn't sound right (or words to that effect).
I think it's most unlikely that a pilot as experienced as Pete Barnes would be flying VFR in those conditions but on the other hand I regularly see both rotary and fixed wing pilots scudding southwards here in Harrow with Harrow Hill less than a mile away due south.
All most regrettable.
Regards
Posts: 1,440
By: paul1867 - 23rd January 2013 at 18:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-21163428
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By: Aces High - 23rd January 2013 at 21:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I saw the report on the news, and can't help but feel that pilot Pete Barnes (who was very experienced) is not here to defend himself when the client supposedly suggested 'not to take off'. How can someone suggest not to take off, surely cancelling and rescheduling the flight was an option, not just suggesting. We only hear one side of the story.
Posts: 1,440
By: paul1867 - 24th January 2013 at 09:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
From the report it says "Mr Caring said he (the pilot) was a "very dear friend"" which would, no doubt, have influenced the nature of the conversation.
I have a good line of sight of Crystal Palace TV mast from here from a couple of miles. I do not know how to describe visibility correctly but as a layman I would say it was fair with haze. The mast is visible with its warning lights on at 09:30 which is obviously well after sunrise.
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By: hampden98 - 24th January 2013 at 09:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The latest news item is a load of rubbish.
The pilot flew into a crane. Mistakes happen.
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By: T-21 - 24th January 2013 at 14:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Reports that the obstruction lights on the crane were only switched on at night. If so they should be on 24/7 but whether the pilot would have seen them in the visibility that morning would be greatly reduced . Are they stroboscopic ? that would catch the attention,particularly in a high cockpit workload environment getting ready to land at Battersea.
Posts: 2,536
By: hampden98 - 24th January 2013 at 15:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think the crane is a red herring for want of a better phrase.
You could have lit up the crane like Christmas. Human error is the cause here. Mistakes happen. You can try to make a situation as safe as possible but life and human nature intervene. This is just an unfortunate accident and nothing more. We are all human. We are all fallible. Situations in life occur and accidents happen. It's life. Well, that's my opinion anyway.
Posts: 2,841
By: paul178 - 24th January 2013 at 20:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
and I totally agree with you hampden98.
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By: Orion - 25th January 2013 at 10:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Disagree. This incident was caused by a respected and experienced pilot discounting the risks; he ought not to have been flying VFR in those conditions. Why he chose to do so will probably never be known, but as I said in an earlier post rotary and fixed wing aircraft quite often fly over or near to my house in North Harrow, scudding in very marginal conditions with Harrow Hill just to the south. The practice ought to be stopped.
Regards
Posts: 1,440
By: paul1867 - 25th January 2013 at 12:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Whilst this accident does raise interesting questions we should remember that very sadly two people lost their lives and we should be sensitive to the feelings of relatives and friends. Perhaps we should only discus facts in evidence and general concerns whilst we await the conclusions of the accident investigation.
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By: The Blue Max - 25th January 2013 at 17:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Oh I do love an arm chair expert.
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By: paul178 - 25th January 2013 at 18:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I will wait until the AAIB final report before commenting further other than to say its a great shame that two people lost their lives in this and the person on the ground can have no blame attached to him!
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By: ZRX61 - 28th January 2013 at 20:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It always is when the guy isn't around to speak for himself.
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By: AlanR - 5th February 2013 at 10:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/AAIB%20S1-2013%20G-CRST.pdf