By: firebar
- 21st October 2006 at 17:46Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The radome is going to be radar-transparent, sure, to allow radar emissions to return to the array. The fun part is that the array itself is angled and not completely vertical. That means your radar beam that gets through the radome isn't going to be reflected back to you anyway, so you're still at a loss.
SOC, it does not work that way.
The stealth design is much more complex than that.
In order to be stealth, the radar array must have very smooth surface. The angle only is not enough.
As you know every radar array has very rough serface, so some angle from vertical means nothing in this case.
By: firebar
- 21st October 2006 at 18:37Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The F-22 has yet to demonstrate Cobra maneuver on International airshows. It takes utmost reliability and security to do that.
We must note that the SU-27/30 and MiG-29 perform also Cobra turn maneuvers and these are much more difficult maneuvers to undertake.
Remember that the MiG-29 has demonstrated Cobra maneuver with 6 underwing missiles !!
Everyone familiar with aerodynamics and flight mechanics know that underwing stores have great negative effect on lateral-directional stability at high AoA. These demonstrations prove very high stability of MiGs in most difficult flight maneuvers.
The F-22 is almost certainly incapable of doing Cobra with underwing stores.
And note that the Russian fighters are able to perform these with aerodynamic controls.
Without TVC, with aerodynamic controls, the F-22 can not do it. That is for sure.
We must understand also that the SU-37/30MKI, with theirs 3D TVC are a whole generation ahead of 2D TVC in F-22.
In fact the SU-37 is the first jet fighter in history of aviation, which has no limitations regarding AoA. That is often overlooked. It performs miracles in the air.
By: bring_it_on
- 21st October 2006 at 19:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The F-22 has yet to demonstrate Cobra maneuver on International airshows. It takes utmost reliability and security to do that.
Please explain how a OshKosh , NJ and others dont have the same security requirments when it comes to airshows ?? Have you ever been to osh kosh and seen international participation ??
Remember that the MiG-29 has demonstrated Cobra maneuver with 6 underwing missiles !!
Mind providing a video ( unless it is the OVT in which case i have seen it) !! And the raptor does so with 8 missiles ( 6+2) so whats the point ??
The F-22 is almost certainly incapable of doing Cobra with underwing stores.
Just like it was almost certainly incapable of doing a cobra a year or two ago!! Do we have to go back and read some of the posts on the raptor's manuverability in the mig-31 and other threads !!
We must understand also that the SU-37/30MKI, with theirs 3D TVC are a whole generation ahead of 2D TVC in F-22.
Please define a generation ?? Is this a generation of stunt manuverability ??
fact the SU-37 is the first jet fighter in history of aviation, which has no limitations regarding AoA. That is often overlooked. It performs miracles in the air.
WOW so how many Su-37's are in operation ?? And do you not beleive the F-22 pilots , F-16MATV pilots , F-15ACTIVE pilots and F-18 HARV pilots when they claim that their aircraft have no AOA limitation ??
By: firebar
- 24th October 2006 at 11:34Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Please explain how a OshKosh , NJ and others dont have the same security requirments when it comes to airshows ?? Have you ever been to osh kosh and seen international participation ??
Of course that it is an International airshow, but you have to admit that it is not in the same class as Farnborough or Le Bourget airshows where Sukhois and Migs regularly perform theirs extreme maneuverabilities.
Mind providing a video ( unless it is the OVT in which case i have seen it) !! And the raptor does so with 8 missiles ( 6+2) so whats the point ??
You could compare Raptors Cobra maneuver with performance of MiG-29 OVT in Farnborough this year.
Both of these have TVC controls, and you can see what Mig can do with it.
The difference is noticeable, you must admit.
As for Raptors missiles, it can do basic Cobra only with internally mounted stores in which case they do not degrade lateral-directional stability.
That is much easier to do than with external stores.
Just like it was almost certainly incapable of doing a cobra a year or two ago!! Do we have to go back and read some of the posts on the raptor's manuverability in the mig-31 and other threads !!
My statements were true, because its flight control system has not been refined yet, at that time.
The Lockheed engineers have achieved to fine tune its FCS, recently, in that measure to enable it to do it. We shall see how efficiently in the Paris airshow next year.
How many Su-37's are in operation ??
Note that SU-30MKI has been in service since 2004, and it has 3D TVC, like SU-37.
That is much more complex design than 2D TVC of F-22, which enable it to do unbelievable maneuvers, completelly devoid of any flight restrictions.
It is the first in jet fighters world. Before that, only light aerobatic planes were devoid of any restrictions.
From aerodynamic point of view, that is incredible achievement.
And do you not beleive the F-22 pilots , F-16MATV pilots , F-15ACTIVE pilots and F-18 HARV pilots when they claim that their aircraft have no AOA limitation ??
We can not believe them on words, because we have a bad expirience with pilot reports of F-14, F-18, etc, where we were systematically convinced, for years, that these fighters also have had no limitations regarding AoA.
We have to believe only to what we see.
The Raptor has matured recently to be able to do a Cobra, but it is only a basic maneuver.
See what the Russians do now.
By: bring_it_on
- 24th October 2006 at 12:00Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
but you have to admit that it is not in the same class as Farnborough or Le Bourget airshows where Sukhois and Migs regularly perform theirs extreme maneuverabilities.
So the laws of Physics are different at the bigger air shows ?? And there are no comparable Airshows of that magnitude and buisness transactions in the US and the Raptor isnt allowed to go and perform even a take off in europe because it doesnt have the clearences from DOD and State department to do so not because it will fall of the sky doing a stunt there but because it is regarded as sensitive .
but you have to admit that it is not in the same class as Farnborough or Le Bourget airshows where Sukhois and Migs regularly perform theirs extreme maneuverabilities.
So it has to do it at that exact same venue to be credible ?? If that is the case i'll go ahead and turn the argument on its head and say the Flanker cannot do the Cobra because it hasnt done so at Oshkosh etc
You could compare Raptors Cobra maneuver with performance of MiG-29 OVT in Farnborough this year.
Both of these have TVC controls, and you can see what Mig can do with it.
Whats the point here ?? The raptor doesnt even have a workable routine yet and performs a different setup everytime because Dozer is on record of saying that he doesnt expect them to have a routine up and ready by mid to end 2007 What you are seeing at oshkosh is just the TIP OF THE ICEBERG according to the pilot as the full capability will be shown next year.
As for Raptors missiles, it can do basic Cobra only with internally mounted stores in which case they do not degrade lateral-directional stability.
That is much easier to do than with external stores.
Who Gives a F&*^ can the Mig-29 do a cobra with internal stores ?? The point is to do a cobra with a weapons and in combat condition which the raptor has acheived . And you have absolutely no proof that the raptor cannot do the cobra with 6 missiles hanging like th flanker can .
y statements were true, because its flight control system has not been refined yet, at that time.
eating up words ehh..I dont know what you said back in the day but many detractors said that due to its stealthy design the raptor cannot do a cobra !!
Note that SU-30MKI has been in service since 2004, and it has 3D TVC, like SU-37.
Last time i checked there was still some confusion regarding the MKI's yaw axis vectoring being due to position of the nozzles rather then the nozzles actually working in the yaw direction although i can be wrong.
The Lockheed engineers have achieved to fine tune its FCS, recently, in that measure to enable it to do it. We shall see how efficiently in the Paris airshow next year.
So you dont want to believe the Raptor pilot who knows 100 time more about his jet then you when he says that nothing was done to the aircraft and it was as it was as a PRODUCTION REPRESENTATIVE example taken from squadron service and without any changes whatsoever .
That is much more complex design than 2D TVC of F-22, which enable it to do unbelievable maneuvers, completelly devoid of any flight restrictions.
I wont say complex but different , raptor's nozzles need to adhere to strict IR and RF signature setting and the aircraft offers all aspect stealth something the MKI does not !!
From aerodynamic point of view, that is incredible achievement.
No doubt !!
We can not believe them on words, because we have a bad expirience with pilot reports of F-14, F-18, etc, where we were systematically convinced, for years, that these fighters also have had no limitations regarding AoA.
Ahhh what ?? Missed the X-31 performance at Paris ?? What about the F-16 cobra ?? The F-18 HARV videos by NASA and pilot testimonials ?? You can choose to believe your ego but for us we'll stick to what the program director,test pilots have to say because the system here with its check's and ballances has proved to be worthy of such trust .
The Raptor has matured recently to be able to do a Cobra, but it is only a basic maneuver.
Matured recently ?? The first few times it demonstrated an aerial manuver to a public it did a cobra ( infact the third time) as before it was not clearly to fly any sort of display ( Static display only) . What did you expect a YF-22 to be flying around doing a cobra ?? It will only be displayed once it gets oeprationally ready and is deployed and that squadron takes it around and it has done so .
See what the Russians do now.
Ohh its that big game again !! Stunt 101 ???
New
Posts: 10,217
By: flex297
- 24th October 2006 at 12:03Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sounds reasonable.. I will try to look up the story in the old mags and return to the topic in cca two weeks. It's been quite a long time since I have read about that.
New
Posts: 10,217
By: flex297
- 24th October 2006 at 12:09Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Oh, shame on you, Sferrin, for believing the testimony of a US pilot who was there. Don't you know that all US sources (especially pilots) are corrupt, untrustworthy, and will say anything to conceal their aircraft's countless failures? :rolleyes:
But a Russian pilot? Or a Czech magazine? Paragons of absolute truth and honesty, they are. :D
If you want to take it personal, PM me.. There is absolutely no need to drag this one into bashing. At the time the article was published (1993) there was no Internet available here to check out. You usually had one source and that was it. You read it and believed what was written there because there was no other choice, whatsoever.
BTW, pilots only say what they are allowed.. or told to.. and this relates to French, Russians, Americans or Chinese in exactly the same way. They won't be risking their dreamjob they had to work hard to get because of some aviation nuts demanding to learn more than what official version says.
By: aurcov
- 24th October 2006 at 12:46Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The F-22 has yet to demonstrate Cobra maneuver on International airshows
Why?
The F-22 is almost certainly incapable of doing Cobra with underwing stores.
And how do you know this?
Without TVC, with aerodynamic controls, the F-22 can not do it. That is for sure.
because you said so?
We must understand also that the SU-37/30MKI, with theirs 3D TVC are a whole generation ahead of 2D TVC in F-22.
The MKI has 2D TVC, but the engines are canted a little. This shows how much you know about your toy...
In fact the SU-37 is the first jet fighter in history of aviation, which has no limitations regarding AoA. That is often overlooked. It performs miracles in the air.
Nothing more that the X 31 did. And BTW, they were both experimental planes...
Quote:
And do you not beleive the F-22 pilots , F-16MATV pilots , F-15ACTIVE pilots and F-18 HARV pilots when they claim that their aircraft have no AOA limitation ??
We can not believe them on words, because we have a bad expirience with pilot reports of F-14, F-18, etc, where we were systematically convinced, for years, that these fighters also have had no limitations regarding AoA.
.
Since when the F 18 and the F 14 are the same thing as F 16 MATV, F 22, F 18 HARV or F 15 ACTIVE????
By: firebar
- 24th October 2006 at 13:50Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Regardless of whether the F-22 can or cannot do a cobra with underwing stores, fact is, it doesn't need to.
Sure, but I only pointed out that it is far more difficult to do it with enderwing stores. From the flight mechanics view.
I think the manouverability of the F-22 is enough to get the job done, bearing in mind the other advantages it has.
It sounds like this:" the Phantom F-4 has enough maneuverability against F-16A to get the job done, considering its other advantages (armament, speed, etc).
But you would probably preffer to be in F-16A.
By: firebar
- 24th October 2006 at 14:18Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Whats the point here ?? The raptor doesnt even have a workable routine yet and performs a different setup everytime because Dozer is on record of saying that he doesnt expect them to have a routine up and ready by mid to end 2007 What you are seeing at oshkosh is just the TIP OF THE ICEBERG according to the pilot as the full capability will be shown next year.
It is true. That is my point also. Its FCS is only recently being refined enough for that maneuver. It the other words, it is new in that business.
We shall see what other maneuvers it can do next year, with fully refined FCS.
I dont know what you said back in the day but many detractors said that due to its stealthy design the raptor cannot do a cobra !!
I said it was very difficult for it to do it because of many aerodynamic compromises which should have been made regarding its stealth requirements.
That is a fact.
So you dont want to believe the Raptor pilot who knows 100 time more about his jet then you when he says that nothing was done to the aircraft and it was as it was as a PRODUCTION REPRESENTATIVE example taken from squadron service and without any changes whatsoever .
We can not believe everything we hear.
I have a video documentary called Eagle Country,from late 80-s, in which McDonnell test pilot says that the F-15E has FBW controls. That proved to be a hoax, because much later was revealled that it has electro-hydraulic FCS, like F-15C.
I wont say complex but different , raptor's nozzles need to adhere to strict IR and RF signature setting and the aircraft offers all aspect stealth something the MKI does not !!
Of course. That is the point. Because of stealth requirement, its nozzle inherently must have constraints compared to the nozzle of SU-30MKI.
You can not have everything.
The same applies to its aerodynamics also.
Ahhh what ?? Missed the X-31 performance at Paris ?? What about the F-16 cobra ?? The F-18 HARV videos by NASA and pilot testimonials ??
Yes,I know that, but note that these are all experimental aircraft programs.
By: bring_it_on
- 24th October 2006 at 14:43Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Its FCS is only recently being refined enough for that maneuver.
And please give some source for the FCS not being able to do the cobra then but being refined to do it now ?? It is called OPERATIONAL CAPABILITY and the raptor has acheived for some time now and no change have been made to the FCS since that capability was reached !!
We shall see what other maneuvers it can do next year, with fully refined FCS.
There is no more refining to do as far as the FCS is concerned , it is operational and everything is working as planned . Please provide sources which suggest that it is going to be refined between now and next year ?? And no it wont be at Paris next year !!
The FCS is fully developed ( not parially developed or " refining to do" ) in an operationaly F-22 raptor .
I said it was very difficult for it to do it because of many aerodynamic compromises which should have been made regarding its stealth requirements.
That is a fact.
Apparently the Pilot was so confident that he went with enough fuel , no changes ( NO REFINMENTS) , 8 missiles and pulled it off , got tanked up and did it all over again !! Then did it again next month with a different machine with a full missile load and enough fuel to do a routine and go back home to his operational squadron NOTHING THAT WOULD SUGGEST IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT TO DO on the contrary the USAF was so confident about it they let a combat coded Major do it instead of a fancy expereinced test pilot like sukhoi and boeing use !!
We can not believe everything we hear.
No dont nor do I but when A pilot who I respect deeply ( have indulged in conversation with) tells me something about the handeling of his jet and There is a weapons program officer who has filed a STA to the program office-->USAF-->DOD-->Congress/Senate testifying that a program has tested X Y Z and the results were X Y Z and done so under oath in a procedure which from the formulation of Concept to execution had INDEPENDENT oversight by watchdog groups such as GAO then I'd believe him !!
Because of stealth requirement, its nozzle inherently must have constraints compared to the nozzle of SU-30MKI.
You can not have everything.
But 3D TVC doesnt even come into the COBRA picture , the raptor has done cobra without yaw vectoring and that is FACT . It can acheive 30 degrees Sust. Yaw rate without Yaw TVC -FACT- Sustain 60 degrees AOA -FACT- And much much more . Regarding doing Back flips etc which SHowers claimed he can do - those have not been done yet so i wont include them because i will wait until we see his footage of doing those aswell in the future , Maybe langley - we shall see !!
Yes,I know that, but note that these are all experimental aircraft programs.
And the Su-37 and Mig-29OVT are also experimental aircrafts !! The MKI according to many has a pitch -+ TVC with yaw vectoring being Obtained by Canting the nozzles so that they appear to make the best of both worlds !!
New
Posts: 3,010
By: MiG-23MLD
- 24th October 2006 at 14:55Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And please give some source for the FCS not being able to do the cobra then but being refined to do it now ?? It is called OPERATIONAL CAPABILITY and the raptor has acheived for some time now and no change have been made to the FCS since that capability was reached !!
There is no more refining to do as far as the FCS is concerned , it is operational and everything is working as planned . Please provide sources which suggest that it is going to be refined between now and next year ?? And no it wont be at Paris next year !!
The FCS is fully developed ( not parially developed or " refining to do" ) in an operationaly F-22 raptor .
Apparently the Pilot was so confident that he went with enough fuel , no changes ( NO REFINMENTS) , 8 missiles and pulled it off , got tanked up and did it all over again !! Then did it again next month with a different machine with a full missile load and enough fuel to do a routine and go back home to his operational squadron NOTHING THAT WOULD SUGGEST IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT TO DO on the contrary the USAF was so confident about it they let a combat coded Major do it instead of a fancy expereinced test pilot like sukhoi and boeing use !!
No dont nor do I but when A pilot who I respect deeply ( have indulged in conversation with) tells me something about the handeling of his jet and There is a weapons program officer who has filed a STA to the program office-->USAF-->DOD-->Congress/Senate testifying that a program has tested X Y Z and the results were X Y Z and done so under oath in a procedure which from the formulation of Concept to execution had INDEPENDENT oversight by watchdog groups such as GAO then I'd believe him !!
But 3D TVC doesnt even come into the COBRA picture , the raptor has done cobra without yaw vectoring and that is FACT . It can acheive 30 degrees Sust. Yaw rate without Yaw TVC -FACT- Sustain 60 degrees AOA -FACT- And much much more . Regarding doing Back flips etc which SHowers claimed he can do - those have not been done yet so i wont include them because i will wait until we see his footage of doing those aswell in the future , Maybe langley - we shall see !!
And the Su-37 and Mig-29OVT are also experimental aircrafts !! The MKI according to many has a pitch -+ TVC with yaw vectoring being Obtained by Canting the nozzles so that they appear to make the best of both worlds !!
I doubt the F-22 can do the Cobra without TVC nozzles
By: kilcoo316
- 24th October 2006 at 15:04Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sure, but I only pointed out that it is far more difficult to do it with enderwing stores. From the flight mechanics view.
It sounds like this:" the Phantom F-4 has enough maneuverability against F-16A to get the job done, considering its other advantages (armament, speed, etc).
But you would probably preffer to be in F-16A.
- not really, the cobra is controlled by elevators, so as long as the missiles/pylons don't screw flow to the elevators you should be ok. The extra drag produced by a few weapons is negligible compared to the drag produced by the wings at AoA 60+.
Indeed, the chief influence is probably the change to the longitudinal polar moment of inertia. If the elevators can not induce a large enough pitch rate, then the aircraft will flip back down prior to 90deg AoA [due to the wing/elevator nose down pitching moment at extreme AoA].
- Not really... how reliable was the early sparrows? What does speed do for you in a dogfight?
New
Posts: 10,217
By: flex297
- 24th October 2006 at 15:05Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Nothing more that the X 31 did. And BTW, they were both experimental planes...
Come on, come on, come on... X-31 and Su-37 are as far in terms of operational readiness as they only can be. X-31 was a pure technology demonstrator, ergo an empty hull with engine, cockpit and controls. Su-37 was a combat ready full spec Su-35, equipped with operational PESA radar (BARS), tweaked flight controls and TVC. Some of the combat avionics as well as the weapons pylons were removed as unnecessary but to put it in the same league as X-31 shows a hilarious lack of objectivity.
X-31 could be compared to MFI 1.44, EAP, Rafale A or XF-35 whereas the Su-37 was further developed than a series F-35A is today.
By: bring_it_on
- 24th October 2006 at 15:29Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I doubt the F-22 can do the Cobra without TVC nozzles
Ah the doubt game again !! You cannot prove it beyond reasonable doubt ( Nor can i prove the opposite but its not be ranting about what it can and what it cannot do - and to be fair with you - its not you either) . Many people were willing to bet a whole lot in 2004 against the raptor doing a cobra ( I myself was one which enclined towards it not being able to do it to be honest If you look at some of my posts on other forums such as f22fighter) however the pilot performed it with easy and says that he will do a lot lot more in the comming time !!
Come on, come on, come on... X-31 and Su-37 are as far in terms of operational readiness as they only can be. X-31 was a pure technology demonstrator, ergo an empty hull with engine, cockpit and controls. Su-37 was a combat ready full spec Su-35, equipped with operational PESA radar (BARS), tweaked flight controls and TVC. Some of the combat avionics as well as the weapons pylons were removed as unnecessary but to put it in the same league as X-31 shows a hilarious lack of objectivity.
It was used to point a lack of objectivity on the other end because he refuses to look at the F-15ACTIVE , F-18HARV and F-16MATV all of which were more akin to the Su-37 and alteast 2 of which ( ACTIVE and MATV) were supposed to be procured or upgraded had the USAF not gone into the JAST/JSF !!
Su-37 was further developed than a series F-35A is today.
Su-37 is a flanker family development whereas the F-35 AA1 is a new aircraft all together . The F-35AA1 will very shortly enter LRIP and billions have been allocated for it but how much has been alocated for the Su-37 ??
New
Posts: 10,217
By: flex297
- 24th October 2006 at 15:45Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It was used to point a lack of objectivity on the other end because he refuses to look at the F-15ACTIVE , F-18HARV and F-16MATV all of which were more akin to the Su-37 and alteast 2 of which ( ACTIVE and MATV) were supposed to be procured or upgraded had the USAF not gone into the JAST/JSF !!
Second that for HARV, MATV and ACTIVE, no doubt. Unlike the X-31 they were derived from series aircraft.
Su-37 is a flanker family development whereas the F-35 AA1 is a new aircraft all together . The F-35AA1 will very shortly enter LRIP and billions have been allocated for it but how much has been alocated for the Su-37 ??
It was not my point to compare Su-37 with F-35A. Lightning II was only used as an example, I could have said J-10, LCA or FC-1 for that matter instead.
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 20th October 2006 at 04:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Heavy set one!!
Posts: 629
By: mabie - 20th October 2006 at 10:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Built like a bulldozer.. haha
Posts: 875
By: firebar - 21st October 2006 at 17:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
SOC, it does not work that way.
The stealth design is much more complex than that.
In order to be stealth, the radar array must have very smooth surface. The angle only is not enough.
As you know every radar array has very rough serface, so some angle from vertical means nothing in this case.
Posts: 875
By: firebar - 21st October 2006 at 18:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The F-22 has yet to demonstrate Cobra maneuver on International airshows. It takes utmost reliability and security to do that.
We must note that the SU-27/30 and MiG-29 perform also Cobra turn maneuvers and these are much more difficult maneuvers to undertake.
Remember that the MiG-29 has demonstrated Cobra maneuver with 6 underwing missiles !!
Everyone familiar with aerodynamics and flight mechanics know that underwing stores have great negative effect on lateral-directional stability at high AoA. These demonstrations prove very high stability of MiGs in most difficult flight maneuvers.
The F-22 is almost certainly incapable of doing Cobra with underwing stores.
And note that the Russian fighters are able to perform these with aerodynamic controls.
Without TVC, with aerodynamic controls, the F-22 can not do it. That is for sure.
We must understand also that the SU-37/30MKI, with theirs 3D TVC are a whole generation ahead of 2D TVC in F-22.
In fact the SU-37 is the first jet fighter in history of aviation, which has no limitations regarding AoA. That is often overlooked. It performs miracles in the air.
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 21st October 2006 at 19:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Please explain how a OshKosh , NJ and others dont have the same security requirments when it comes to airshows ?? Have you ever been to osh kosh and seen international participation ??
Mind providing a video ( unless it is the OVT in which case i have seen it) !! And the raptor does so with 8 missiles ( 6+2) so whats the point ??
Just like it was almost certainly incapable of doing a cobra a year or two ago!! Do we have to go back and read some of the posts on the raptor's manuverability in the mig-31 and other threads !!
Please define a generation ?? Is this a generation of stunt manuverability ??
WOW so how many Su-37's are in operation ?? And do you not beleive the F-22 pilots , F-16MATV pilots , F-15ACTIVE pilots and F-18 HARV pilots when they claim that their aircraft have no AOA limitation ??
Posts: 875
By: firebar - 24th October 2006 at 11:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Of course that it is an International airshow, but you have to admit that it is not in the same class as Farnborough or Le Bourget airshows where Sukhois and Migs regularly perform theirs extreme maneuverabilities.
You could compare Raptors Cobra maneuver with performance of MiG-29 OVT in Farnborough this year.
Both of these have TVC controls, and you can see what Mig can do with it.
The difference is noticeable, you must admit.
As for Raptors missiles, it can do basic Cobra only with internally mounted stores in which case they do not degrade lateral-directional stability.
That is much easier to do than with external stores.
My statements were true, because its flight control system has not been refined yet, at that time.
The Lockheed engineers have achieved to fine tune its FCS, recently, in that measure to enable it to do it. We shall see how efficiently in the Paris airshow next year.
Note that SU-30MKI has been in service since 2004, and it has 3D TVC, like SU-37.
That is much more complex design than 2D TVC of F-22, which enable it to do unbelievable maneuvers, completelly devoid of any flight restrictions.
It is the first in jet fighters world. Before that, only light aerobatic planes were devoid of any restrictions.
From aerodynamic point of view, that is incredible achievement.
We can not believe them on words, because we have a bad expirience with pilot reports of F-14, F-18, etc, where we were systematically convinced, for years, that these fighters also have had no limitations regarding AoA.
We have to believe only to what we see.
The Raptor has matured recently to be able to do a Cobra, but it is only a basic maneuver.
See what the Russians do now.
Posts: 904
By: kilcoo316 - 24th October 2006 at 11:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Regardless of whether the F-22 can or cannot do a cobra with underwing stores, fact is, it doesn't need to.
I think the manouverability of the F-22 is enough to get the job done, bearing in mind the other advantages it has.
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 24th October 2006 at 12:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So the laws of Physics are different at the bigger air shows ?? And there are no comparable Airshows of that magnitude and buisness transactions in the US and the Raptor isnt allowed to go and perform even a take off in europe because it doesnt have the clearences from DOD and State department to do so not because it will fall of the sky doing a stunt there but because it is regarded as sensitive .
So it has to do it at that exact same venue to be credible ?? If that is the case i'll go ahead and turn the argument on its head and say the Flanker cannot do the Cobra because it hasnt done so at Oshkosh etc
Whats the point here ?? The raptor doesnt even have a workable routine yet and performs a different setup everytime because Dozer is on record of saying that he doesnt expect them to have a routine up and ready by mid to end 2007 What you are seeing at oshkosh is just the TIP OF THE ICEBERG according to the pilot as the full capability will be shown next year.
Who Gives a F&*^ can the Mig-29 do a cobra with internal stores ?? The point is to do a cobra with a weapons and in combat condition which the raptor has acheived . And you have absolutely no proof that the raptor cannot do the cobra with 6 missiles hanging like th flanker can .
eating up words ehh..I dont know what you said back in the day but many detractors said that due to its stealthy design the raptor cannot do a cobra !!
Last time i checked there was still some confusion regarding the MKI's yaw axis vectoring being due to position of the nozzles rather then the nozzles actually working in the yaw direction although i can be wrong.
So you dont want to believe the Raptor pilot who knows 100 time more about his jet then you when he says that nothing was done to the aircraft and it was as it was as a PRODUCTION REPRESENTATIVE example taken from squadron service and without any changes whatsoever .
I wont say complex but different , raptor's nozzles need to adhere to strict IR and RF signature setting and the aircraft offers all aspect stealth something the MKI does not !!
No doubt !!
Ahhh what ?? Missed the X-31 performance at Paris ?? What about the F-16 cobra ?? The F-18 HARV videos by NASA and pilot testimonials ?? You can choose to believe your ego but for us we'll stick to what the program director,test pilots have to say because the system here with its check's and ballances has proved to be worthy of such trust .
Matured recently ?? The first few times it demonstrated an aerial manuver to a public it did a cobra ( infact the third time) as before it was not clearly to fly any sort of display ( Static display only) . What did you expect a YF-22 to be flying around doing a cobra ?? It will only be displayed once it gets oeprationally ready and is deployed and that squadron takes it around and it has done so .
Ohh its that big game again !! Stunt 101 ???
Posts: 10,217
By: flex297 - 24th October 2006 at 12:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sounds reasonable.. I will try to look up the story in the old mags and return to the topic in cca two weeks. It's been quite a long time since I have read about that.
Posts: 10,217
By: flex297 - 24th October 2006 at 12:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If you want to take it personal, PM me.. There is absolutely no need to drag this one into bashing. At the time the article was published (1993) there was no Internet available here to check out. You usually had one source and that was it. You read it and believed what was written there because there was no other choice, whatsoever.
BTW, pilots only say what they are allowed.. or told to.. and this relates to French, Russians, Americans or Chinese in exactly the same way. They won't be risking their dreamjob they had to work hard to get because of some aviation nuts demanding to learn more than what official version says.
Posts: 1,366
By: aurcov - 24th October 2006 at 12:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Why?And how do you know this? because you said so?The MKI has 2D TVC, but the engines are canted a little. This shows how much you know about your toy...Nothing more that the X 31 did. And BTW, they were both experimental planes...Since when the F 18 and the F 14 are the same thing as F 16 MATV, F 22, F 18 HARV or F 15 ACTIVE???? No ****! Enjoy: http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Movie/F-18HARV/HTML/EM-0013-02.htmlhttp://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Movie/X-31/index.html
Posts: 875
By: firebar - 24th October 2006 at 13:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sure, but I only pointed out that it is far more difficult to do it with enderwing stores. From the flight mechanics view.
It sounds like this:" the Phantom F-4 has enough maneuverability against F-16A to get the job done, considering its other advantages (armament, speed, etc).
But you would probably preffer to be in F-16A.
Posts: 875
By: firebar - 24th October 2006 at 14:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It is true. That is my point also. Its FCS is only recently being refined enough for that maneuver. It the other words, it is new in that business.
We shall see what other maneuvers it can do next year, with fully refined FCS.
I said it was very difficult for it to do it because of many aerodynamic compromises which should have been made regarding its stealth requirements.
That is a fact.
We can not believe everything we hear.
I have a video documentary called Eagle Country,from late 80-s, in which McDonnell test pilot says that the F-15E has FBW controls. That proved to be a hoax, because much later was revealled that it has electro-hydraulic FCS, like F-15C.
Of course. That is the point. Because of stealth requirement, its nozzle inherently must have constraints compared to the nozzle of SU-30MKI.
You can not have everything.
The same applies to its aerodynamics also.
Yes,I know that, but note that these are all experimental aircraft programs.
Posts: 875
By: firebar - 24th October 2006 at 14:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No. It is because I know what the problems are when designing high AoA flight vehicles.
Don't tell me that SU-37 and X-31 are both experimental planes.
The SU-37 is a full fledged fighter with powerful fire control system and armamenets.
I know about these experimental programs from AW&ST.
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 24th October 2006 at 14:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And please give some source for the FCS not being able to do the cobra then but being refined to do it now ?? It is called OPERATIONAL CAPABILITY and the raptor has acheived for some time now and no change have been made to the FCS since that capability was reached !!
There is no more refining to do as far as the FCS is concerned , it is operational and everything is working as planned . Please provide sources which suggest that it is going to be refined between now and next year ?? And no it wont be at Paris next year !!
The FCS is fully developed ( not parially developed or " refining to do" ) in an operationaly F-22 raptor .
Apparently the Pilot was so confident that he went with enough fuel , no changes ( NO REFINMENTS) , 8 missiles and pulled it off , got tanked up and did it all over again !! Then did it again next month with a different machine with a full missile load and enough fuel to do a routine and go back home to his operational squadron NOTHING THAT WOULD SUGGEST IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT TO DO on the contrary the USAF was so confident about it they let a combat coded Major do it instead of a fancy expereinced test pilot like sukhoi and boeing use !!
No dont nor do I but when A pilot who I respect deeply ( have indulged in conversation with) tells me something about the handeling of his jet and There is a weapons program officer who has filed a STA to the program office-->USAF-->DOD-->Congress/Senate testifying that a program has tested X Y Z and the results were X Y Z and done so under oath in a procedure which from the formulation of Concept to execution had INDEPENDENT oversight by watchdog groups such as GAO then I'd believe him !!
But 3D TVC doesnt even come into the COBRA picture , the raptor has done cobra without yaw vectoring and that is FACT . It can acheive 30 degrees Sust. Yaw rate without Yaw TVC -FACT- Sustain 60 degrees AOA -FACT- And much much more . Regarding doing Back flips etc which SHowers claimed he can do - those have not been done yet so i wont include them because i will wait until we see his footage of doing those aswell in the future , Maybe langley - we shall see !!
And the Su-37 and Mig-29OVT are also experimental aircrafts !! The MKI according to many has a pitch -+ TVC with yaw vectoring being Obtained by Canting the nozzles so that they appear to make the best of both worlds !!
Posts: 3,010
By: MiG-23MLD - 24th October 2006 at 14:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I doubt the F-22 can do the Cobra without TVC nozzles
Posts: 904
By: kilcoo316 - 24th October 2006 at 15:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
- not really, the cobra is controlled by elevators, so as long as the missiles/pylons don't screw flow to the elevators you should be ok. The extra drag produced by a few weapons is negligible compared to the drag produced by the wings at AoA 60+.
Indeed, the chief influence is probably the change to the longitudinal polar moment of inertia. If the elevators can not induce a large enough pitch rate, then the aircraft will flip back down prior to 90deg AoA [due to the wing/elevator nose down pitching moment at extreme AoA].
- Not really... how reliable was the early sparrows? What does speed do for you in a dogfight?
Posts: 10,217
By: flex297 - 24th October 2006 at 15:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Come on, come on, come on... X-31 and Su-37 are as far in terms of operational readiness as they only can be. X-31 was a pure technology demonstrator, ergo an empty hull with engine, cockpit and controls. Su-37 was a combat ready full spec Su-35, equipped with operational PESA radar (BARS), tweaked flight controls and TVC. Some of the combat avionics as well as the weapons pylons were removed as unnecessary but to put it in the same league as X-31 shows a hilarious lack of objectivity.X-31 could be compared to MFI 1.44, EAP, Rafale A or XF-35 whereas the Su-37 was further developed than a series F-35A is today.
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 24th October 2006 at 15:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ah the doubt game again !! You cannot prove it beyond reasonable doubt ( Nor can i prove the opposite but its not be ranting about what it can and what it cannot do - and to be fair with you - its not you either) . Many people were willing to bet a whole lot in 2004 against the raptor doing a cobra ( I myself was one which enclined towards it not being able to do it to be honest If you look at some of my posts on other forums such as f22fighter) however the pilot performed it with easy and says that he will do a lot lot more in the comming time !!
It was used to point a lack of objectivity on the other end because he refuses to look at the F-15ACTIVE , F-18HARV and F-16MATV all of which were more akin to the Su-37 and alteast 2 of which ( ACTIVE and MATV) were supposed to be procured or upgraded had the USAF not gone into the JAST/JSF !!
Su-37 is a flanker family development whereas the F-35 AA1 is a new aircraft all together . The F-35AA1 will very shortly enter LRIP and billions have been allocated for it but how much has been alocated for the Su-37 ??
Posts: 10,217
By: flex297 - 24th October 2006 at 15:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Second that for HARV, MATV and ACTIVE, no doubt. Unlike the X-31 they were derived from series aircraft. It was not my point to compare Su-37 with F-35A. Lightning II was only used as an example, I could have said J-10, LCA or FC-1 for that matter instead.