By: bring_it_on
- 14th October 2006 at 04:19Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And be left with what ?? Assuming that the manuver needs to be performed at low airspeed ( below 350Knts presumably) and assuming a 1-2 Km seperation that still gives plenty coverage to fire away for the enemy provided the pilot tries this in the first place !!!
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By: MiG-23MLD
- 14th October 2006 at 04:31Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And be left with what ?? Assuming that the manuver needs to be performed at low airspeed ( below 350Knts presumably) and assuming a 1-2 Km seperation that still gives plenty coverage to fire away for the enemy provided the pilot tries this in the first place !!!
The cobra turn is used so the Su-35`s rival looses the firing position while over passing the enemy, that happened in Dubai in 1993 with a mock combat between a Su-30 and Su-35.
This has been greatly reduced with missiles like the Python V but still the Russians have new designs of AAMS and even reward firing AA-11s
here is a video where you can see the Cobra Turn and all without thrust vectoring http://youtube.com/watch?v=qMG0ttaR7xQ
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Posts: 8
By: mikemasey
- 14th October 2006 at 09:45Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
By: JFrazier
- 14th October 2006 at 18:36Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The cobra turn is used so the Su-35`s rival looses the firing position while over passing the enemy, that happened in Dubai in 1991 with a mock combat between a Su-30 and Su-35.
The Su-30 and Su-35 existed in 1991? In Dubai?
Like bring it on said, in a dogfight the Cobra turn has a limited envelope and can only be done with certain fuel loads at certain speeds.
Also, at 4:40 in the video, you get to see an expample of the yaw instability the Flanker design exhibits at high AoA, a trait that it not apparent with the Raptor.
I don't really see anything in the video that the F-22 couldn't do.
This has been greatly reduced with missiles like the Python V but still the Russians have new designs of AAMS and even reward firing AA-11s
Reward firing missiles. :rolleyes:
You show me evidence of an actual separation test with those. Their effectiveness in real combat is very limited anyway.
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By: MiG-23MLD
- 14th October 2006 at 20:40Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Su-30 and Su-35 existed in 1991? In Dubai?
Like bring it on said, in a dogfight the Cobra turn has a limited envelope and can only be done with certain fuel loads at certain speeds.
Also, at 4:40 in the video, you get to see an expample of the yaw instability the Flanker design exhibits at high AoA, a trait that it not apparent with the Raptor.
I don't really see anything in the video that the F-22 couldn't do.
Reward firing missiles. :rolleyes:
You show me evidence of an actual separation test with those. Their effectiveness in real combat is very limited anyway.
The Cobra turn has been performed at combat weight and armed with 12 Air to air missiles by the Su-35 in 1994 at ILA 94 air show in Germany.
In Dubai 1993 (sorry it was Dubai 1993 not 1991) the Russians took a Su-35 and a Su-30 and they performed an air show mock combat demostration, the Su-35 performed the the Cobra turn and showed how it would use a Cobra turn in combat.
Pugachev himself performed the Cobra turn.
See the Su-35 had no thrust vectoring, now consider what is going to happen when the Su-35BM appears on the scene?
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By: RPG type 7v
- 14th October 2006 at 22:32Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
if i were an fighter i guess i would be a bear looking MiG-31M
oohhhh i thought yours favourite was MiG-23FF [frutty & fresh] :D
what was the name of that manuver that tricks f-15s pulse-doppler radar and makes flanker dissappear from it.? ;)
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Posts: 85
By: Northax
- 14th October 2006 at 22:39Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Mig, you wanna see some F-18 spins in mid air? This was done in the early 80's!
Watch it! American's know how to make maneuverable aircraft; all of our aircraft can do stuff Russians can, but they have to change the FBW. Please, stop living in denial, American's have tested super-maneuverability, we just don't normally show it off at airshows like Russians do all the time.
By: Sens
- 14th October 2006 at 22:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Cobra has relevance, the Su-35 could simply apply that Cobra turn while turning not in the typical vertical Cobra but a horizontal Cobra.
Check the Su-35 without thrust vectoring
Wrong, you have to slow down at first in doing so. None combat pilot with a sane mind will do so in an energy fight, which is demanded by modern AAMs. Such a Su-35 presents an optimum target to an AAM with visual-seeker head.
May be you will meet a real combat pilot to ask him yourself about that some day?!
By: Sens
- 14th October 2006 at 22:56Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The cobra turn is used so the Su-35`s rival looses the firing position while over passing the enemy, that happened in Dubai in 1993 with a mock combat between a Su-30 and Su-35.
This has been greatly reduced with missiles like the Python V but still the Russians have new designs of AAMS and even reward firing AA-11s
here is a video where you can see the Cobra Turn and all without thrust vectoring http://youtube.com/watch?v=qMG0ttaR7xQ
Really, you mistook a stunt-show with a real arial combat. With a state of the art seeker-head and all-aspect AAM you have not to close in to a firing position, when the opponent is inside the performance envelope of such AAM, when not finished by a AIM-120 type before.
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By: Northax
- 14th October 2006 at 23:12Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
See that? 1979! That was a test UAV called "HiMAT" (Highly Maneuverable Aircraft Technology) to study super-maneuverability.
Stop talking about Russia knowing more about super-maneuverability than the U.S., because they actually don't. We've been testing stuff like this before they have! The U.S. built and flew the X-29 before Russia even built their S37 / Su-47. Please, stop with the crap. lol
By: Sens
- 14th October 2006 at 23:14Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
When the real Su-35BM or Su-27-ugrade to that will appear in Russian service, we will see first hand what is fitted with operational needs in mind and what is not.
Actually I think that's a Super Hornet test plane which puts this video at a more recent date.
That video shows more evidence of the carefree handling mentioned earlier not really manueverability. Most newer FBW are able to recover from the nastiest of flatspins like the one in the video.
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By: MiG-23MLD
- 15th October 2006 at 03:26Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Really, you mistook a stunt-show with a real arial combat. With a state of the art seeker-head and all-aspect AAM you have not to close in to a firing position, when the opponent is inside the performance envelope of such AAM, when not finished by a AIM-120 type before.
The manoeuvres are practical but depends what oponent you are facing if it is an F-15 armed with an AIM-9X or armed with an AIM-9L, Russia is also putting more money to develop their newer AAMs.
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By: MiG-23MLD
- 15th October 2006 at 03:28Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Mig, you wanna see some F-18 spins in mid air? This was done in the early 80's!
Watch it! American's know how to make maneuverable aircraft; all of our aircraft can do stuff Russians can, but they have to change the FBW. Please, stop living in denial, American's have tested super-maneuverability, we just don't normally show it off at airshows like Russians do all the time.
That is not the Helicopter that is a Flat spin, the helicopere is a controllable flat spin but it does not loose so much height and it is controlled by the Yaw thrust vectoring nozzle actuators
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By: lovemigs
- 15th October 2006 at 03:43Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think the "cobra" or other cool tricks are simply showing off the capabilities of an aircraft as far as manouvering is concerned, I'm sure that that's what Russian pilots are doing, rather then showing off "combat maneuvrability":)
As far as using Cobra for combat, don't know - maybe in the movie "Top Gun" (2?) it may make sense, but in real combat, if I was flying, not sure that that's I'd be doing....
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Posts: 245
By: lovemigs
- 15th October 2006 at 03:47Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
See that? 1979! That was a test UAV called "HiMAT" (Highly Maneuverable Aircraft Technology) to study super-maneuverability.
Stop talking about Russia knowing more about super-maneuverability than the U.S., because they actually don't. We've been testing stuff like this before they have! The U.S. built and flew the X-29 before Russia even built their S37 / Su-47. Please, stop with the crap. lol
Love that remote control "super toy" looks cool...:) love it, must be fast!
By: bring_it_on
- 15th October 2006 at 04:51Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That is not the Helicopter that is a Flat spin, the helicopere is a controllable flat spin but it does not loose so much height and it is controlled by the Yaw thrust vectoring nozzle actuators
Which in this case the F-18 does not have !! That is not the Helicopter but a true departure from flight with serious limits overcross and then recovery , the helicopter manuver as performed by the sukhoi and Mig aswell as the micro loop by the raptor are much much more controlled and dont go to this extent which is why they can be performed at those hights and for those spectaters , Departure and recovery testing is done ( and has been done for all aircraft either US or soviet) to verify recovery tehns. set departure limits etc etc and these are done to much much higher extent then what we see at airshows and are done at altitude and in test conditions !!! The raptor departure recovery videos are just as dramatic as the hornet's and i would imagine the Sukhoi and Mig videos would be too !!
By: bring_it_on
- 15th October 2006 at 05:10Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Love that remote control "super toy" looks cool...:) love it, must be fast!
I dont think it reached much speeds after piggy backing from B-52 but then again it wasnt meant to test speed just manuverability ( not even agility)
Here are some of the other test aircraft that were manuverability specif ( all speeds )
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By: MiG-23MLD
- 15th October 2006 at 05:54Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
See that? 1979! That was a test UAV called "HiMAT" (Highly Maneuverable Aircraft Technology) to study super-maneuverability.
Stop talking about Russia knowing more about super-maneuverability than the U.S., because they actually don't. We've been testing stuff like this before they have! The U.S. built and flew the X-29 before Russia even built their S37 / Su-47. Please, stop with the crap. lol
Okay let`s face this reality, both the US and Russia have had supermanoeuvrability for a long time, the HIMAT was not a super aircraft because it has canards it does not mean is the latest thing in agility.
Agility depedends several factors, one is thrust, other is lift and the last and latest is non aerodynamic control surfaces suc as Thrust vectoring nozzles.
If you have seen, the Su-27 has a pair of wings with LERXes, twin vertical dorsal fins and twin ventral fins, taiplanes, this is a more complex aerodynamic configuration than the HIMAT.
The Su-35 has a pair of LERXes, a pair of canards, a pair of tailplanes, a pair of wings, a pair of dorsal vertical fins and a pair of ventral vertical fins.
An F-15 only has a pair of wings, a pair of tail planes and a pair of vertical fins.
Now a Su-37 and the Su-30MKI has a pair of LERXes, a pair of of canards, a pair of tailplanes. a pair of wings, twin vertical dorsal fins, a twin vertical.
Russia and the US had worked with those in the F-15 ACTIVE and the F-16 MATV in the US and in Russia with the Su-37 and MiG-29OVT.
However you have to see the thrust vectoring nozzles have different levels of readiness for induction into production and service.
Already the Russians are building 3D engines for operational aircraft.
Also the MiG-29 are operation aircraft with excellent aerodynamic capabilities only recently matched by the operational F-22.
By: bring_it_on
- 15th October 2006 at 06:02Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Already the Russians are building 3D engines for operational aircraft.
That isnt a big deal anyway !! The AVEN for the F-110 was an operational standard 3 D Multi AXIS nozzle , it was just not ordered because the USAF didnt want a new F-15 or F-16 varient but wanted a new series of stealth aircraft in the F-22 and F-35 !! The AVEN i believe was offered to the UAE in the shape of the original more radical Delta set up for the Blk60 which the UAE refused due to cost and the fact that they wanted to stick to lower risk and stay close to the original configuration of the F-16 !!
Okay let`s face this reality, both the US and Russia have had supermanoeuvrability for a long time, the HIMAT was not a super aircraft because it has canards it does not mean is the latest thing in agility.
The HiMAT was the 70's and only tested certain aspects of manuverability rather then put up the whole kitchen sink as they say , DITTO with the X-31 and X-36 , they were GOAL specific as they were never intended to be put into service just like say the S-37 which didnt have a fighter representative Fuel fraction for RuAF as it want meant to be operational fighter but one that explores FSW for application into 5th gen PAKFA !! They were simply much simplified and specialized test platforms , like the BOP which brought stealth to levels which were previously unatainable nothing more and nothing less heck the BOP didnt even use FBW simply because it was not needed !!
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By: bring_it_on - 14th October 2006 at 04:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And be left with what ?? Assuming that the manuver needs to be performed at low airspeed ( below 350Knts presumably) and assuming a 1-2 Km seperation that still gives plenty coverage to fire away for the enemy provided the pilot tries this in the first place !!!
Posts: 3,010
By: MiG-23MLD - 14th October 2006 at 04:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The cobra turn is used so the Su-35`s rival looses the firing position while over passing the enemy, that happened in Dubai in 1993 with a mock combat between a Su-30 and Su-35.This has been greatly reduced with missiles like the Python V but still the Russians have new designs of AAMS and even reward firing AA-11s
here is a video where you can see the Cobra Turn and all without thrust vectoring
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qMG0ttaR7xQ
Posts: 8
By: mikemasey - 14th October 2006 at 09:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Impresive video, thanks for the info .
mike
Posts: 278
By: JFrazier - 14th October 2006 at 18:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Su-30 and Su-35 existed in 1991? In Dubai?
Like bring it on said, in a dogfight the Cobra turn has a limited envelope and can only be done with certain fuel loads at certain speeds.
Also, at 4:40 in the video, you get to see an expample of the yaw instability the Flanker design exhibits at high AoA, a trait that it not apparent with the Raptor.
I don't really see anything in the video that the F-22 couldn't do.
Reward firing missiles. :rolleyes:
You show me evidence of an actual separation test with those. Their effectiveness in real combat is very limited anyway.
Posts: 3,010
By: MiG-23MLD - 14th October 2006 at 20:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Cobra turn has been performed at combat weight and armed with 12 Air to air missiles by the Su-35 in 1994 at ILA 94 air show in Germany.
In Dubai 1993 (sorry it was Dubai 1993 not 1991) the Russians took a Su-35 and a Su-30 and they performed an air show mock combat demostration, the Su-35 performed the the Cobra turn and showed how it would use a Cobra turn in combat.
Pugachev himself performed the Cobra turn.
See the Su-35 had no thrust vectoring, now consider what is going to happen when the Su-35BM appears on the scene?
Posts: 237
By: RPG type 7v - 14th October 2006 at 22:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
oohhhh i thought yours favourite was MiG-23FF [frutty & fresh] :D
what was the name of that manuver that tricks f-15s pulse-doppler radar and makes flanker dissappear from it.? ;)
Posts: 85
By: Northax - 14th October 2006 at 22:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Mig, you wanna see some F-18 spins in mid air? This was done in the early 80's!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwYg13DAHq4&eurl=
Watch it! American's know how to make maneuverable aircraft; all of our aircraft can do stuff Russians can, but they have to change the FBW. Please, stop living in denial, American's have tested super-maneuverability, we just don't normally show it off at airshows like Russians do all the time.
Posts: 11,742
By: Sens - 14th October 2006 at 22:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Wrong, you have to slow down at first in doing so. None combat pilot with a sane mind will do so in an energy fight, which is demanded by modern AAMs. Such a Su-35 presents an optimum target to an AAM with visual-seeker head.
May be you will meet a real combat pilot to ask him yourself about that some day?!
Posts: 11,742
By: Sens - 14th October 2006 at 22:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Really, you mistook a stunt-show with a real arial combat. With a state of the art seeker-head and all-aspect AAM you have not to close in to a firing position, when the opponent is inside the performance envelope of such AAM, when not finished by a AIM-120 type before.
Posts: 85
By: Northax - 14th October 2006 at 23:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
See that? 1979! That was a test UAV called "HiMAT" (Highly Maneuverable Aircraft Technology) to study super-maneuverability.
Stop talking about Russia knowing more about super-maneuverability than the U.S., because they actually don't. We've been testing stuff like this before they have! The U.S. built and flew the X-29 before Russia even built their S37 / Su-47. Please, stop with the crap. lol
Posts: 11,742
By: Sens - 14th October 2006 at 23:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
When the real Su-35BM or Su-27-ugrade to that will appear in Russian service, we will see first hand what is fitted with operational needs in mind and what is not.
Posts: 278
By: JFrazier - 14th October 2006 at 23:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Actually I think that's a Super Hornet test plane which puts this video at a more recent date.
That video shows more evidence of the carefree handling mentioned earlier not really manueverability. Most newer FBW are able to recover from the nastiest of flatspins like the one in the video.
Posts: 3,010
By: MiG-23MLD - 15th October 2006 at 03:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The manoeuvres are practical but depends what oponent you are facing if it is an F-15 armed with an AIM-9X or armed with an AIM-9L, Russia is also putting more money to develop their newer AAMs.
Posts: 3,010
By: MiG-23MLD - 15th October 2006 at 03:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That is not the Helicopter that is a Flat spin, the helicopere is a controllable flat spin but it does not loose so much height and it is controlled by the Yaw thrust vectoring nozzle actuators
Posts: 245
By: lovemigs - 15th October 2006 at 03:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think the "cobra" or other cool tricks are simply showing off the capabilities of an aircraft as far as manouvering is concerned, I'm sure that that's what Russian pilots are doing, rather then showing off "combat maneuvrability":)
As far as using Cobra for combat, don't know - maybe in the movie "Top Gun" (2?) it may make sense, but in real combat, if I was flying, not sure that that's I'd be doing....
Posts: 245
By: lovemigs - 15th October 2006 at 03:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Love that remote control "super toy" looks cool...:) love it, must be fast!
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 15th October 2006 at 04:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Which in this case the F-18 does not have !! That is not the Helicopter but a true departure from flight with serious limits overcross and then recovery , the helicopter manuver as performed by the sukhoi and Mig aswell as the micro loop by the raptor are much much more controlled and dont go to this extent which is why they can be performed at those hights and for those spectaters , Departure and recovery testing is done ( and has been done for all aircraft either US or soviet) to verify recovery tehns. set departure limits etc etc and these are done to much much higher extent then what we see at airshows and are done at altitude and in test conditions !!! The raptor departure recovery videos are just as dramatic as the hornet's and i would imagine the Sukhoi and Mig videos would be too !!
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 15th October 2006 at 05:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I dont think it reached much speeds after piggy backing from B-52 but then again it wasnt meant to test speed just manuverability ( not even agility)
Here are some of the other test aircraft that were manuverability specif ( all speeds )
Posts: 3,010
By: MiG-23MLD - 15th October 2006 at 05:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Okay let`s face this reality, both the US and Russia have had supermanoeuvrability for a long time, the HIMAT was not a super aircraft because it has canards it does not mean is the latest thing in agility.
Agility depedends several factors, one is thrust, other is lift and the last and latest is non aerodynamic control surfaces suc as Thrust vectoring nozzles.
If you have seen, the Su-27 has a pair of wings with LERXes, twin vertical dorsal fins and twin ventral fins, taiplanes, this is a more complex aerodynamic configuration than the HIMAT.
The Su-35 has a pair of LERXes, a pair of canards, a pair of tailplanes, a pair of wings, a pair of dorsal vertical fins and a pair of ventral vertical fins.
An F-15 only has a pair of wings, a pair of tail planes and a pair of vertical fins.
Now a Su-37 and the Su-30MKI has a pair of LERXes, a pair of of canards, a pair of tailplanes. a pair of wings, twin vertical dorsal fins, a twin vertical.
Russia and the US had worked with those in the F-15 ACTIVE and the F-16 MATV in the US and in Russia with the Su-37 and MiG-29OVT.
However you have to see the thrust vectoring nozzles have different levels of readiness for induction into production and service.
Already the Russians are building 3D engines for operational aircraft.
Also the MiG-29 are operation aircraft with excellent aerodynamic capabilities only recently matched by the operational F-22.
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 15th October 2006 at 06:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That isnt a big deal anyway !! The AVEN for the F-110 was an operational standard 3 D Multi AXIS nozzle , it was just not ordered because the USAF didnt want a new F-15 or F-16 varient but wanted a new series of stealth aircraft in the F-22 and F-35 !! The AVEN i believe was offered to the UAE in the shape of the original more radical Delta set up for the Blk60 which the UAE refused due to cost and the fact that they wanted to stick to lower risk and stay close to the original configuration of the F-16 !!
The HiMAT was the 70's and only tested certain aspects of manuverability rather then put up the whole kitchen sink as they say , DITTO with the X-31 and X-36 , they were GOAL specific as they were never intended to be put into service just like say the S-37 which didnt have a fighter representative Fuel fraction for RuAF as it want meant to be operational fighter but one that explores FSW for application into 5th gen PAKFA !! They were simply much simplified and specialized test platforms , like the BOP which brought stealth to levels which were previously unatainable nothing more and nothing less heck the BOP didnt even use FBW simply because it was not needed !!