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By: - 20th April 2006 at 05:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I like the idea of the F414 Turbofans and the satellite datalink.The best possible RF model would be based on the Israeli IAI Super Phantom with the PW1120 Turbofans.I think that would be a good starting point,then maybe add the nose section of the RF-4E(S),throw in a datalink system and some self defence AAMs,and there you go.The standoff recon role would be great for the Phantom II.Also maybe an underbelly ELINT pod to go with the standoff cameras.In this sense,it could be like a mini RC-135,orbiting near the border of a hostile country and not need to risk penertrating enemy airspace.
By: - 21st April 2006 at 01:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I like the ELINT idea myself......and of course the new engines.
Can anyone think of a better engine to replace the J-79 with than the F414?
Is the PW1120 still around?
By: - 21st April 2006 at 01:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Tactical recce using fast jets is a holdover from the old film camera days. Modern recce is performed by sensors tied to a datalink to provide real time information. Real time information is a powerful force multiplier and a key to operating within an opponent's decision loop. For this reason, recce needs to be persistent, something a fast jet cannot do. Better to use a UAV that can loiter for 24 hours while datalinking its information to whomever can exploit it; from theater commander to squad leader.
The bottom line is RF-4 may have been great 30 years ago but is not the right tool for today's network-centric battlefield.
By: - 21st April 2006 at 04:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You're quite correct, ROKAF RF-4Cs are at the end of their line. The current plan is to replace both RF-4 and RF-5 fleet of the air force by converting the latest batch of KF-16s into RF-16s using recc pods.
By: - 21st April 2006 at 07:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sounds interesting,but I think the F-15K would be better suited,maybe use a system in the CFT,like was proposed back in the days when they were called FAST(Fuel And Sensor Tank).Use it like a duel role quick change recon/bomber.It has better range for the recon mission then the F-16 too.I'm sure economically speaking though the F-16 makes more sense.
By: - 21st April 2006 at 07:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
F-15K is way too valuable of an asset, and RF-16 is basically talking about recc against North Korean stationary and mobile targets close to the front, so it would be a close. The latest batch of 20 KF-16s is really extra squadron the government forced the air force to buy, so I guess they're just trying to make best use out of them.
By: - 21st April 2006 at 11:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Here is a (poor) picture of an HAF RF-4E Phantom which is carrying the ASTAC ESM/ELINT pod.
By: - 21st April 2006 at 13:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Interesting.....any information on where those pods came from? I thought Japanese photo Spooks were the only ones carrying recce pods of any type......
Actually that brings up a question.....with some RF-4EJ Kai's having the fighter style nose (because they are converted F-4EJ's), do the regular RF-4EJ's with the photo noses (also called RF-4EJ Kai) have the ability to carry the same pods?
dj,
While I agree with you in some areas, I don't think you're taking an overall look at the situation. While it's true that a force like the USAF may have the resources (namely satellites, U-2's, RQ-4's, and RQ-1's.....), most other air forces do not.
I mean look at all the nations that still use some type of fast jet for photo-recon.
You've got the RAF using the Tornado and I think at one point both the Jag and Harrier carried recce pods though I could be wrong.
F-16's in various nations use recce pods as do Hornets.
The F-14 and its TARPS system is being replaced by a podded system on the Super Hornet I believe....
The RF-4 and RF-5 are still active in quite a few nations in different versions....
The Su-17 Fitter I believe has a recce version that might still be in service with Russia and a few other nations.....
While fast-jet recce can't remain on station as long as UAV's there are several advantages. First of all, most fast jets can get higher than UAV's (the Global Hawk is the exception to this rule), and they are obviously much faster meaning they can get to an area of importance much quicker.
With inflight refueling they can have some type of loiter capability and if fitted with the proper equipment, they can datalink real-time intelligence just like a UAV.
Furthermore, although more expensive, they tend to be more survivable, and with the use of stand-off recon sensors, that survivability is even better.
Obviously recce is going the way of the UAV, but I think that fast jets can still provide some benefits that UAV's can't do just yet.
By: - 21st April 2006 at 18:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Fast jet recce only gives you information for those few seconds while the jet is over the target area. How did the enemy's disposition change an hour later? 4 hours later? With a fast jet, you'll never know.
The US isn't the only nation to use persistent UAV recce. The honor of inventing it goes to Israel who routinely uses UAVs to keep tabs on its belligerant adversaries, especially Syria, Hamas and Hezbollah. India also uses UAVs along the western border and over Kashmir. The advantage of persistent recce is too great to ignore.
By: - 23rd April 2006 at 18:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm well aware of the fact that many nations use UAV's, but seeing as they provide so many advantages over fast-jet recce then why haven't all nations using fast-jets for recce retried those jets or otherwised re-tasked them and then commence buying UAV's?
Perhaps in 20 years all fast-jet recce will be a thing of the past, but at this moment it's still a very important part of the mission capabilities of many an air force, and you can't simply ignore that.
Take South Korea for example.......when the RF-4C's are retired in a few years they are getting replaced not with a UAV, but with F-16's using photo-recce pods....
Japan has no plans to replace their RF-4EJ fleet, and of course as you know they were all upgraded.
Greece and Turkey have not announced plans to replace their fleets yet.
Russia's Su-24MR's are still around.....
RAF's Tornados.........
Taiwan's RF-5's........
By: - 24th April 2006 at 09:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Phantom: the problem is that current UAV recon is flown by what amount to light aircraft, minus the pilot. The UAVs mostly fly at under 100 knots, which makes them completely unsuitable for replacing fast jet recce for most of those nations. UAVs are great for standoff recon, but there will be a role for fast jets for many years, though probably involving recon pods like the RecceLite or newer Litening models.
In future, targetting pods will be as capable of recon as dedicated recon pods, so there is a bright future for fast jet recon. With improvements in aircraft ECM, ELINT will be able to be conducted organically, with all the aircraft in theatre contributing to the overall signals picture.
By: - 24th April 2006 at 12:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Jets still have a justifiable mission. They can be faster in an area. Additionally are they more survivable in some situations than UAVs.
Air forces normally do not reflect the present state of technology. They reflect a mixture of doctrines, specific thinking and available systems. If an air force buys something and is faced with its obsolesence ten years later, they usually are reluctant to phase the system out. See how some nations used old airframes for other roles or defined new roles. Having a few RF-4E doesn't hurt if you have a fleet of F-4s anyways. However, it is unlikely that the nations will keep the RF-4s after they phased out the normal Phantoms.
By: - 24th April 2006 at 13:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Anyone know much about the specific equipment fits of Japanese RF-4EJ's, Greek, Turkish & Iranian RF-4E's, and South Korean RF-4C's?
I'd be interested to compare the respective systems, and to find out just who has the best recce Rhinos.......
By: - 24th April 2006 at 19:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I can't help you with specific equipment Phantom II But I can tell you what i've read in Ptisi (Flight and Space) magazine regarding the Greek RF-4s.The point is that there was a try to convert the current cameras of the RF-4s into digital,plus improving image analysis according to the magazine if I'm not mistaken...The outcome was a flop since they discovered that the new lences? could not fit into the planes camera bay unless there was major modification in the nose structure,plus the current wiring could not support digital functions and moreover it messed with other systems on the RF-4 generating faults.As a result,the whole programe was cancelled and the greek goverment pressed charges to the company...
Does anybody have any recent news on that???
By: - 24th April 2006 at 19:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I wonder if they could modify the RF-4s to carry a lightweight multimode radar in the nose, as opposed to the very basic radar they currently carry. There are radars such as the Grifo that have been modified to fit smaller fighters like the Mig-21 and F-5, and could probably allow the RF-4 some limited BVR capability.
The RF-4s could, as fazer says, be modified to use digital sensors, bringing it up to date - perhaps the Goodrich DB-110, which, combined with a pod like ASTAC, give a very useful recon aircraft. Remember, age in recon aircraft is not such a big issue!
By: - 25th April 2006 at 00:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Speaking of BVR capability in RF-4's or lack thereof I guess.......what about Japan's force of upgraded RF-4EJ Kais?
I realize that RF-4EJ Kai actually can refer to one of two different variants. You have the 14 original RF-4EJ's that were upgraded, and then I think 17(?) F-4EJ's that were upgraded to RF-4EJ Kai standard instead of F-4EJ Kai standard.
According to my Spirit In the Skies Book, these 17 aircraft retain their combat capability including the gun. It doesn't really elaborate more than that though....
It says the AN/APQ-172 radar was fitted in place of the older AN/APQ-120. I understand the -172 was fitted in upgraded USAF RF-4C's as well as Spanish and South Korean examples.
If that's the case, then do these "combat capable" RF-4EJ Kais have the ability to fire AIM-7F/M still? Or does that just mean they can still drop bombs and shoot IR-guided AAM's like AIM-9L/M and AAM-3?
Anyone have any ideas? Data about the -172 set itself would be nice as well.
Here's a picture of an F-4EJ that was upgraded to RF-4EJ Kai standards.
It believe it's carrying the Israeli-designed Rafale LOROP pod.
By: - 25th April 2006 at 15:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Pilots are UnharmedNear-Tragedy with Fantom
25 Apr 2006 11:18:00 (Last updated: 25 Apr 2006 14:56:01)
The two pilots of the Hellenic Air Force’s Fantom, which crashed shortly before 11:00 near the airport of Larissa, are unharmed. As per initial indications, the two-seater RF-4 presented a serious fault in its hydraulics system, while the aircraft was returning from a test flight. Five kilometres before the airport, the two pilots successfully used the automatic ejection system, as the altitude of the flight at the point was very low. The two pilots were taken to Larissa Hospital and underwent basic examinations, while for precautionary reasons they will be taken to the Air Force General Hospital, in Athens, for another series of exams.
http://news.ert.gr/en/newsDetails.asp?ID=17135
Good the crew are ok, so thats 17 now left in service HAF right? :confused:
Cheers,
Alepou 340MB
By: - 25th April 2006 at 16:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Glad the crew is okay as that's obviously the most important thing.
Is that picture you posted of the aircraft involved?
By: - 26th April 2006 at 00:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No, the picture was just for illustration purposes only. ;)
Cheers,
Alepou 340MB
By: - 26th April 2006 at 06:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Oh ok thanks for the clarification. Are all Hellenic RF-4's currently in that lizard scheme? Isn't that the old scheme that Luftwaffe RF-4's had? Or at least similar?
I'm also curious as to whether or not anyone besides Spain, the USAF, and Israel ever equipped their RF-4's with self-defense AAM's. I know USAF and Spanish examples could carry up to four AIM-9L/M's, while Israeli RF-4E's and F-4E(S)'s could carry up to four (six in the case of the E(S)) AIM-9, Shafrir, or Python AAM's (the Israeli's modified their F-4 fleet to carry IR-guided AAM's in the forward Sparrow missile wells I believe.).
Has anyone else done that? South Korea, Turkey, Greece, or Japan?
Posts: 7,989
By: PhantomII - 20th April 2006 at 03:17
As most of you know, the RF-4 "Photo Phantom" remains in service with Greece (RF-4E), Turkey (RF-4E), Iran (RF-4E), South Korea (RF-4C), and Japan (RF-4EJ Kai).
Obviously in those respective air forces, it provides a vital if overlooked capability.
In the days of UAV's and satellites, it seems manned recce assets are dwindling......yet many nations still have manned dedicated recced aircraft as well as multi-role fighters with recce pods.....
As such I'm wondering what all you guys think could be done to make the RF-4 better than it is right now.......anyone have any idea who has the most well-equipped RF-4's of the nations I listed?
I was thinking perhaps at least using the wrap-around canopy that the USAF tested on a F-4E's and RF-4C's.....perhaps giving the aircraft a glass cockpit (has that been done?), and most importantly maybe some new engines that are more powerful and fuel efficient. Can anyone suggest a suitable replacement for the RF-4's J-79 engines? Something that gives more thrust and is more fuel efficient..........what about the F414 maybe?
Since many RF-4's carry air-to-air IR missiles for self defense, perhaps integration of the latest generation of IR AAM's and their helmet sights?
Maybe Turkey and Greece could buy the IRIS-T and its helmet sight. Japan could put the AAM-3 on their birds. South Korea could use the AIM-9X that they will get with the F-15K (although I think perhaps the RF-4C fleet might not have much time left....).
Equipment-wise you could integrate the latest in cameras, IR equipment, ELINT equipment, and perhaps a satellite datalink similar to what is found on the U-2S if possible.
What do you guys think?
What are the possibilities?