By: nani!
- 27th April 2006 at 01:48Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
PhantomII
AFAIK the original JASDF RF-4s were never called RF-4EJ, just RF-4E. They weren't license assembled unlike the F-4EJ.
In Janes's IAF the Kurnass 2000 could mount Pythons on one of the Sparrow missile wells, i never seen this in actual photos of F-4Es but the RF-4 seems pausible.
By: PhantomII
- 27th April 2006 at 06:43Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That's the first I've ever heard of them being called RF-4E's instead of EJ's.....
If I'm not mistaken at least a few F-4EJ's were built in the USA, and yet still called F-4EJ's........
The ultimate reference work on the Phantom entitled "McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom: Spirit In The Skies" even makes it a point to mention how both the RF-4EJ fleet and several F-4EJ's that were modified to recce standards are all called RF-4EJ Kai......
Regarding the Israeli RF-4's I'm not sure if that was possible because of the fact that on all RF-4 variants the Sparrow missile wells are faired over.....
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Posts: 69
By: fazer01
- 27th April 2006 at 11:53Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Oh ok thanks for the clarification. Are all Hellenic RF-4's currently in that lizard scheme? Isn't that the old scheme that Luftwaffe RF-4's had? Or at least similar?
(the Israeli's modified their F-4 fleet to carry IR-guided AAM's in the forward Sparrow missile wells I believe.).
Has anyone else done that? South Korea, Turkey, Greece, or Japan?
This is the Lufftwafe lizzard scheme...Most of the Greek RF-4s are ex-Lufftwafe aircraft.The originals bought in 1974 carried the SEA scheme (Vietnam).I might be wrong,but I think that as the Luffwafe aircraft go through heavy maintenance they change camo for SEA.You can see that from the serials.Ex-Lufftwafe a/c have 4-digit serials on the tail fin.the original bought fron the USA have 6-digit serials.
As for the modification you mention,the majority of the Greek a/c (the ex-Lufftwafe examples) have the Sparrow missile rails tapped over,thus they are constrained in Sidewinders. ;)
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Posts: 114
By: nani!
- 27th April 2006 at 12:08Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That's the first I've ever heard of them being called RF-4E's instead of EJ's.....
If I'm not mistaken at least a few F-4EJ's were built in the USA, and yet still called F-4EJ's........
The ultimate reference work on the Phantom entitled "McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom: Spirit In The Skies" even makes it a point to mention how both the RF-4EJ fleet and several F-4EJ's that were modified to recce standards are all called RF-4EJ Kai......
Regarding the Israeli RF-4's I'm not sure if that was possible because of the fact that on all RF-4 variants the Sparrow missile wells are faired over.....
Not sure about "Spirit in The Skies" as i haven't read it. The first 2 F-4EJs were assembled at St Louis but are called EJs because they are of a similar standard to MHI examples.
The original Japanese RF-4s never had the EJ, they are simply called RF-4E and the upgraded version RF-4E Kai. Most publications i read and f-4ej.com always refer them as RF-4E. I do notice Jbaugher's calling them RF-4EJ but most japanese sources don't agree.
I still cant find any details on Sparrow well IR missile pylons for IAF Phantoms. There is even mention of the Vulcan being replaced by a pair of 30mm DEFAs.
By: Iranian F-14A
- 28th April 2006 at 00:02Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yea,that was the F/RF-4X program.Israel later bought 3 as the RF-4E(S).These were just standard Mach 2 models with the modified camera bay.Great for standoff recon.IIRC,one was shot down and as the soviet advisors were climbing over the wreckage,several Israeli F-4s came in and unloaded onto the wreckage,destroying what was left and killing everyone around it.Too bad the USAF didn't buy a couple.These could be fitted with rails where the old Sparrow bays were to carry Python missiles.Interesting looking to say the least.
By: Palerider
- 28th April 2006 at 02:51Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
For years the conventional wisdom was that recce pods on multi role fighters would make dedicated recce versions obsolete (ie podded F-16's replacing RF-4's) But on 5th gen aircraft such as the F-22 or F-35 exterior pods & weapons are the 'enemy' of 'stealth' so might there be a place for an 'RF' version with internal equipment such as IR equipment, digital cameras & datalinks to 'real time' the images? (unlikley in the case of the F-22 but you get my point)
By: Iranian F-14A
- 28th April 2006 at 03:53Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I see your point,and I agree.I would suggest an RF-35 JSF would be possible,but with all the cuts and issues with that program,I'm not too certain anymore.Lockheed did propose an RF-117 Nighthawk model with cameras mounted in the former weapons bay.The offer wasn't taken up though.
New
Posts: 114
By: nani!
- 28th April 2006 at 04:43Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I remember MDC had proposals for a dedicated RF-18 fitted with camera nose and possibly a similar one for the RF-15.
By: PhantomII
- 28th April 2006 at 07:36Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We're going to have to agree to disagree on the Japanese RF-4 designation. I still think it's RF-4EJ........if you haven't read Spirit of the Skies, then I highly suggest you do. It's one of the best works out there on the Phantom. Joe Baugher's information is generally pretty accurate as well so I wouldn't necessarily write that off.
I've never seen any publication refer to Japanese Phantoms are RF-4E's......hell, even AFM refers to them as RF-4EJ's........
Regarding Israeli RF models, did I hear someone say they could carry IR weapons in the forward Sparrow wells? How is this possible if, on all RF variants, the well were faired over?
Oh and to nitpick the three Israeli recce models with the funky looking nose are actually F-4E(S) aircraft.........they also had RF-4E's, but those were built as RF-4E's from the beginning while the three F-4E(S) airplanes began life as F-4E's.
The F-4X/RF-4X would have indeed produced quite a capable airplane. I think it's funny how they thought the mighty Eagle might have been threatened in sales if the F-4X project had gotten off the ground so they cancelled it.
I bet the USAF might still have a use for the RF-4X even today if it had the right sensors and equipment installed....
By: Iranian F-14A
- 28th April 2006 at 11:02Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As far as the Israelis RFs go,I've seen a pic of the RF-4E(S) model carrying the Pythons on the Sparrow bay rail launcher,and I'd have to assume the standard RF-4E could do the same.The rail is attached to a small pylon that goes up to the former Sparrow Bay.This could be faired over,but,as you know,the Israelis have a way or improvising.Only the forward bays are used,never seen a pic of the aft bays or all four being used at once.
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Posts: 114
By: nani!
- 28th April 2006 at 11:34Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ok..lets try to work something out ;)
Actually they are many publications out there that actually refer to Japanese birds as RF-4E's. If you have access to Koku-Fan Magazine, you can notice they always had them called RF-4E's. Several issues of Air International also make a distinction between the RF-4E, RF-4E Kai and RF-4EJ Kai. I manage to dig out 2 issues, Jan 96 and May 98 both covering the JASDF. All Japanese websources also never call the RF-4E's as EJ's, they are completely different variants. Take a look at some of them:
I only notice RF-4EJ being used to describe the original 14 airframes once in a western publication, the Phantom Story. Can't blame books like that and "Spirit of the Skies" for making this error(typo perhaps ?) since they try cover every variant of the F-4. Now i must try get this book since i am a big F-4 fan myself.
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Posts: 114
By: nani!
- 28th April 2006 at 12:28Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As far as the Israelis RFs go,I've seen a pic of the RF-4E(S) model carrying the Pythons on the Sparrow bay rail launcher,and I'd have to assume the standard RF-4E could do the same.The rail is attached to a small pylon that goes up to the former Sparrow Bay.This could be faired over,but,as you know,the Israelis have a way or improvising.Only the forward bays are used,never seen a pic of the aft bays or all four being used at once.
Anything like the photo at the bottom of this page ? http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2848/rf4.htm
Could see the pylon and launchrail but no IR missile. I think they probably don't use the aft bays because of ground clearance issues during takeoff/landing.
By: PhantomII
- 30th April 2006 at 18:20Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The 17 F-4EJ's that were converted to RF-4EJ standards actually still have a combat capability, and this includes the gun.
What I'm wondering is what weapons capabilities they lost. The radar fitted is the AN/APQ-172, and I doubt this has AIM-7 capability.
I asked that earlier in this thread, but nobody seemed to know the answer.
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Posts: 53
By: beleg
- 1st May 2006 at 14:03Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The future of Turkish RF4s are uncertain atm. a few months back there were news about most of them getting Terminator sytle upgrade making them nearly dedicated stand off a-g aircraft. But currently there is no news from the second batch F-4 upgrade.
Turkey examined Israeli LOROP for a time but it was found in capable and there is a rfp out there for a lo range recon pod if i remember correctly.
Posts: 114
By: nani! - 27th April 2006 at 01:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
PhantomII
AFAIK the original JASDF RF-4s were never called RF-4EJ, just RF-4E. They weren't license assembled unlike the F-4EJ.
In Janes's IAF the Kurnass 2000 could mount Pythons on one of the Sparrow missile wells, i never seen this in actual photos of F-4Es but the RF-4 seems pausible.
Posts: 7,989
By: PhantomII - 27th April 2006 at 06:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That's the first I've ever heard of them being called RF-4E's instead of EJ's.....
If I'm not mistaken at least a few F-4EJ's were built in the USA, and yet still called F-4EJ's........
The ultimate reference work on the Phantom entitled "McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom: Spirit In The Skies" even makes it a point to mention how both the RF-4EJ fleet and several F-4EJ's that were modified to recce standards are all called RF-4EJ Kai......
Regarding the Israeli RF-4's I'm not sure if that was possible because of the fact that on all RF-4 variants the Sparrow missile wells are faired over.....
Posts: 69
By: fazer01 - 27th April 2006 at 11:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This is the Lufftwafe lizzard scheme...Most of the Greek RF-4s are ex-Lufftwafe aircraft.The originals bought in 1974 carried the SEA scheme (Vietnam).I might be wrong,but I think that as the Luffwafe aircraft go through heavy maintenance they change camo for SEA.You can see that from the serials.Ex-Lufftwafe a/c have 4-digit serials on the tail fin.the original bought fron the USA have 6-digit serials.
As for the modification you mention,the majority of the Greek a/c (the ex-Lufftwafe examples) have the Sparrow missile rails tapped over,thus they are constrained in Sidewinders. ;)
Posts: 114
By: nani! - 27th April 2006 at 12:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not sure about "Spirit in The Skies" as i haven't read it. The first 2 F-4EJs were assembled at St Louis but are called EJs because they are of a similar standard to MHI examples.
The original Japanese RF-4s never had the EJ, they are simply called RF-4E and the upgraded version RF-4E Kai. Most publications i read and f-4ej.com always refer them as RF-4E. I do notice Jbaugher's calling them RF-4EJ but most japanese sources don't agree.
I still cant find any details on Sparrow well IR missile pylons for IAF Phantoms. There is even mention of the Vulcan being replaced by a pair of 30mm DEFAs.
Posts: 264
By: Prowlus - 27th April 2006 at 12:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Anyone remember a project to supercharge the current RF-4 into a mach 3 capable recon plane?
Posts: 451
By: Iranian F-14A - 28th April 2006 at 00:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yea,that was the F/RF-4X program.Israel later bought 3 as the RF-4E(S).These were just standard Mach 2 models with the modified camera bay.Great for standoff recon.IIRC,one was shot down and as the soviet advisors were climbing over the wreckage,several Israeli F-4s came in and unloaded onto the wreckage,destroying what was left and killing everyone around it.Too bad the USAF didn't buy a couple.These could be fitted with rails where the old Sparrow bays were to carry Python missiles.Interesting looking to say the least.
Posts: 147
By: Palerider - 28th April 2006 at 02:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
For years the conventional wisdom was that recce pods on multi role fighters would make dedicated recce versions obsolete (ie podded F-16's replacing RF-4's) But on 5th gen aircraft such as the F-22 or F-35 exterior pods & weapons are the 'enemy' of 'stealth' so might there be a place for an 'RF' version with internal equipment such as IR equipment, digital cameras & datalinks to 'real time' the images? (unlikley in the case of the F-22 but you get my point)
Posts: 451
By: Iranian F-14A - 28th April 2006 at 03:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I see your point,and I agree.I would suggest an RF-35 JSF would be possible,but with all the cuts and issues with that program,I'm not too certain anymore.Lockheed did propose an RF-117 Nighthawk model with cameras mounted in the former weapons bay.The offer wasn't taken up though.
Posts: 114
By: nani! - 28th April 2006 at 04:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I remember MDC had proposals for a dedicated RF-18 fitted with camera nose and possibly a similar one for the RF-15.
Posts: 7,989
By: PhantomII - 28th April 2006 at 07:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We're going to have to agree to disagree on the Japanese RF-4 designation. I still think it's RF-4EJ........if you haven't read Spirit of the Skies, then I highly suggest you do. It's one of the best works out there on the Phantom. Joe Baugher's information is generally pretty accurate as well so I wouldn't necessarily write that off.
I've never seen any publication refer to Japanese Phantoms are RF-4E's......hell, even AFM refers to them as RF-4EJ's........
Regarding Israeli RF models, did I hear someone say they could carry IR weapons in the forward Sparrow wells? How is this possible if, on all RF variants, the well were faired over?
Oh and to nitpick the three Israeli recce models with the funky looking nose are actually F-4E(S) aircraft.........they also had RF-4E's, but those were built as RF-4E's from the beginning while the three F-4E(S) airplanes began life as F-4E's.
The F-4X/RF-4X would have indeed produced quite a capable airplane. I think it's funny how they thought the mighty Eagle might have been threatened in sales if the F-4X project had gotten off the ground so they cancelled it.
I bet the USAF might still have a use for the RF-4X even today if it had the right sensors and equipment installed....
Sort of a poor man's SR-71 in a sense.....
Posts: 451
By: Iranian F-14A - 28th April 2006 at 11:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As far as the Israelis RFs go,I've seen a pic of the RF-4E(S) model carrying the Pythons on the Sparrow bay rail launcher,and I'd have to assume the standard RF-4E could do the same.The rail is attached to a small pylon that goes up to the former Sparrow Bay.This could be faired over,but,as you know,the Israelis have a way or improvising.Only the forward bays are used,never seen a pic of the aft bays or all four being used at once.
Posts: 114
By: nani! - 28th April 2006 at 11:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ok..lets try to work something out ;)
Actually they are many publications out there that actually refer to Japanese birds as RF-4E's. If you have access to Koku-Fan Magazine, you can notice they always had them called RF-4E's. Several issues of Air International also make a distinction between the RF-4E, RF-4E Kai and RF-4EJ Kai. I manage to dig out 2 issues, Jan 96 and May 98 both covering the JASDF. All Japanese websources also never call the RF-4E's as EJ's, they are completely different variants. Take a look at some of them:
http://homepage1.nifty.com/KWAT/list/jasdf/f-4ej.htm
http://www.f-4ej.com/squadron/501sq.htm <--f-4ej.com's 501 Hikotai page
http://www.f-4ej.com/index2.htm
http://www.jda.go.jp/jasdf/equipment/index.html# <--Official JASDF website
Non-japanese sites:
Even Joe Baugher called them RF-4E's although he also used RF-4EJ(confusion?)
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f4_47.html
http://www.scramble.nl/jp.htm
I only notice RF-4EJ being used to describe the original 14 airframes once in a western publication, the Phantom Story. Can't blame books like that and "Spirit of the Skies" for making this error(typo perhaps ?) since they try cover every variant of the F-4. Now i must try get this book since i am a big F-4 fan myself.
Posts: 114
By: nani! - 28th April 2006 at 12:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Anything like the photo at the bottom of this page ?
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2848/rf4.htm
Could see the pylon and launchrail but no IR missile. I think they probably don't use the aft bays because of ground clearance issues during takeoff/landing.
Posts: 584
By: tbzz - 28th April 2006 at 12:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi. What is this Rf-4 carry on central pylon
Posts: 114
By: nani! - 28th April 2006 at 12:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Looks like AN/AVQ-26 Pave Tack
Posts: 114
By: nani! - 30th April 2006 at 11:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I heard the RF-4EJ had the 20mm removed. Can anyone confirm this ?
Posts: 7,989
By: PhantomII - 30th April 2006 at 18:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The 17 F-4EJ's that were converted to RF-4EJ standards actually still have a combat capability, and this includes the gun.
What I'm wondering is what weapons capabilities they lost. The radar fitted is the AN/APQ-172, and I doubt this has AIM-7 capability.
I asked that earlier in this thread, but nobody seemed to know the answer.
Posts: 53
By: beleg - 1st May 2006 at 14:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The future of Turkish RF4s are uncertain atm. a few months back there were news about most of them getting Terminator sytle upgrade making them nearly dedicated stand off a-g aircraft. But currently there is no news from the second batch F-4 upgrade.
Turkey examined Israeli LOROP for a time but it was found in capable and there is a rfp out there for a lo range recon pod if i remember correctly.
Posts: 547
By: orko_8 - 1st September 2006 at 14:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Res: http://www.hvkk.mil.tr/Gururumuz/KARTAL/40.jpg