By: JonS
- 7th July 2005 at 21:51Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So what? They will be newer hulls that will last longer and will be built locally so a fair chunk of that money will flow right back to Pakistan instead of to the UK if new used hulls are bought.
As for the torpedoes, didn't PN mount Swedish 400mm tubes on the ex-RN ships? In light of previous experience, don't you think it likely that these could be transferred to F22P? Or that additional tubes are bought from Sweden?
Who says chinese sonar and radar will be installed on new ships not built in China?
As i said b4 if you want to improve your Shipyard go build some opv you cant risk your naval future and your limited budget on SY thats has no experience building vessels of that size or F22p besign for that matter. Also third agosta 90b hamza is still undergoing construction since 1997 and dcn is hopefully that it will be launched by 2006 (last year they said 2005) FYI.
As for the swedish torpedoes dont have much info on it, i think they purchased just torpedoes swedan probably made some modification to t-21's thriple 12.5 inch to tubes to enable it to carry them. Anyway in the case f22p there is no provisions for one and even the sonar aspect is doubful
do u guys know wat the radar and/or the EW suite is going to be? or if it is definitive that it will be of Chinese origin even? somehow it doesnt add up ...
the link i posted on top as all the info on it.
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By: star49
- 7th July 2005 at 22:31Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As i said b4 if you want to improve your Shipyard go build some opv you cant risk your naval future and your limited budget on SY thats has no experience building vessels of that size or F22p besign for that matter. Also third agosta 90b hamza is still undergoing construction since 1997 and dcn is hopefully that it will be launched by 2006 (last year they said 2005) FYI.
third submarine started construction in 1997. this is news to me and the third one is the first one with AIP and submarine building is more complicated than ship with similar size and at that time when Agusta deal was signed PN ability to absord TOT was not at the same level as it is now. (almost 12 years has gone by)
the link i posted on top as all the info on it.
what is the crediblity of that link? unless it is official press release.
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By: star49
- 7th July 2005 at 23:06Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It is learning project thats why look at time frame. and PN considering Chinese submarines is news.
BEIJING (APP) – China will provide four F-22P advanced quality frigates to Pakistan by 2013, meeting its defence requirement.
Of these, three will be manufactured in China, while one frigate will be built in Pakistan. First frigate will be available to Pakistan Navy within a period of three and half years, this was stated by Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Shahid Karimullah in an exclusive interview with the agency here on Thursday
The contract also involves training of Pakistan navy personnel, including those of Karachi Shipyard. It also covers the important requirement of transfer of technology. Accordingly one frigate will be built in Pakistan, he added
China made marvellous progress in the defence production sector in the recent years and the quality of their products were meeting the international standard, he added
To a question, the Naval Chief said the frigates will help to maintain the country’s naval surface warfare capability. “We can also consider to buy submarines from China in future,” he added
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By: vikraal
- 8th July 2005 at 04:30Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So only one frigate is being built at karachi? I suppose it means PN will order more of the same, probably with modifications. There is no point building just one.
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By: Wanshan
- 8th July 2005 at 08:32Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So only one frigate is being built at karachi? I suppose it means PN will order more of the same, probably with modifications. There is no point building just one.
Of course more will be built in Karachi, that's the whole point of the ToT. PN will need to replace its ex-RN ships (2 Type 12 Leander and 6 Type 21 Amazon, respectively dating back to lat 1970s and early 1980s). So, there's a need for 8 ships. It would not surpise me if the latter 4 will have fewer Chinese and more Western systems and armaments (same "batch" approach as IN has adopted with Project 17). Perhaps, there may even be a third batch of 4 eventually.
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By: vikraal
- 8th July 2005 at 09:09Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I know, but my point was does PN really want a fleet of 8 F-22p frigates? That doesn't really look like a very capable fleet at all. 4 F-22p are alright but after than you need 4 more capable frigates in the 3000-4000 tonne size. Anyway have any specs of the F-22p been released.
By: JonS
- 8th July 2005 at 16:00Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Of course more will be built in Karachi, that's the whole point of the ToT. PN will need to replace its ex-RN ships (2 Type 12 Leander and 6 Type 21 Amazon, respectively dating back to lat 1970s and early 1980s). So, there's a need for 8 ships. It would not surpise me if the latter 4 will have fewer Chinese and more Western systems and armaments (same "batch" approach as IN has adopted with Project 17). Perhaps, there may even be a third batch of 4 eventually.
its not batch more like option to build 4 more. With batch construction/funding has already been allocated which is obviously not the case. Honestly i doubt it would be excersised since why would PN want to get to stuck building this design heading into 2015.
hird submarine started construction in 1997. this is news to me and the third one is the first one with AIP and submarine building is more complicated than ship with similar size and at that time when Agusta deal was signed PN ability to absord TOT was not at the same level as it is now. (almost 12 years has gone by)
keel for it was laid in 1997 if you want the exact date look up janes fighting ships. Shipyard should have improved but AIP shouldnt really make it that complicated besides there is close to hundered french personnel helping with the construction.
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By: Srbin
- 8th July 2005 at 18:54Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
YJ83 seems like a good missile if thats whats gona be installed on it, but C-802 is kind of outdated by now. HQ-7 is also a poor SAM.....
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By: sealordlawrence
- 8th July 2005 at 20:11Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So you know everything about HQ-7 do you?
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By: vikraal
- 8th July 2005 at 21:25Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
HHQ-7 has an extended range of 13 km and is only effective against low flying aircrafts. It cannot stop sea skimming missiles like excocet or harpoon forget the ones with terminal supersonic speed like klub (last 20 km is high supersonic) and brahmos. And yes C-802 can be countered by baraks or shtil since it is 80's tech.
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By: sealordlawrence
- 8th July 2005 at 21:29Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And you are sure of this are you Vikraal? Certainly these ships are not going to be uptoi the standards of what Inidia is getting, but the Bashing of chinese tech is realy rather unfounded, we have all seen the massive advances they have made in military technology in the last few years and in reality knowone can be sure of the true capabilitys of most of their equipment.
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By: JonS - 7th July 2005 at 21:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As i said b4 if you want to improve your Shipyard go build some opv you cant risk your naval future and your limited budget on SY thats has no experience building vessels of that size or F22p besign for that matter. Also third agosta 90b hamza is still undergoing construction since 1997 and dcn is hopefully that it will be launched by 2006 (last year they said 2005) FYI.
As for the swedish torpedoes dont have much info on it, i think they purchased just torpedoes swedan probably made some modification to t-21's thriple 12.5 inch to tubes to enable it to carry them. Anyway in the case f22p there is no provisions for one and even the sonar aspect is doubful
the link i posted on top as all the info on it.
Posts: 3,396
By: star49 - 7th July 2005 at 22:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
third submarine started construction in 1997. this is news to me and the third one is the first one with AIP and submarine building is more complicated than ship with similar size and at that time when Agusta deal was signed PN ability to absord TOT was not at the same level as it is now. (almost 12 years has gone by)
what is the crediblity of that link? unless it is official press release.
Posts: 3,396
By: star49 - 7th July 2005 at 23:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It is learning project thats why look at time frame. and PN considering Chinese submarines is news.
http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/july-2005/8/index9.php
Posts: 184
By: vikraal - 8th July 2005 at 04:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So only one frigate is being built at karachi? I suppose it means PN will order more of the same, probably with modifications. There is no point building just one.
Posts: 3,609
By: Wanshan - 8th July 2005 at 08:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Of course more will be built in Karachi, that's the whole point of the ToT. PN will need to replace its ex-RN ships (2 Type 12 Leander and 6 Type 21 Amazon, respectively dating back to lat 1970s and early 1980s). So, there's a need for 8 ships. It would not surpise me if the latter 4 will have fewer Chinese and more Western systems and armaments (same "batch" approach as IN has adopted with Project 17). Perhaps, there may even be a third batch of 4 eventually.
Posts: 184
By: vikraal - 8th July 2005 at 09:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I know, but my point was does PN really want a fleet of 8 F-22p frigates? That doesn't really look like a very capable fleet at all. 4 F-22p are alright but after than you need 4 more capable frigates in the 3000-4000 tonne size. Anyway have any specs of the F-22p been released.
Posts: 658
By: JonS - 8th July 2005 at 16:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
its not batch more like option to build 4 more. With batch construction/funding has already been allocated which is obviously not the case. Honestly i doubt it would be excersised since why would PN want to get to stuck building this design heading into 2015.
keel for it was laid in 1997 if you want the exact date look up janes fighting ships. Shipyard should have improved but AIP shouldnt really make it that complicated besides there is close to hundered french personnel helping with the construction.
Posts: 1,930
By: Srbin - 8th July 2005 at 18:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
YJ83 seems like a good missile if thats whats gona be installed on it, but C-802 is kind of outdated by now. HQ-7 is also a poor SAM.....
Posts: 5,707
By: sealordlawrence - 8th July 2005 at 20:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So you know everything about HQ-7 do you?
Posts: 184
By: vikraal - 8th July 2005 at 21:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
HHQ-7 has an extended range of 13 km and is only effective against low flying aircrafts. It cannot stop sea skimming missiles like excocet or harpoon forget the ones with terminal supersonic speed like klub (last 20 km is high supersonic) and brahmos. And yes C-802 can be countered by baraks or shtil since it is 80's tech.
Posts: 5,707
By: sealordlawrence - 8th July 2005 at 21:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And you are sure of this are you Vikraal? Certainly these ships are not going to be uptoi the standards of what Inidia is getting, but the Bashing of chinese tech is realy rather unfounded, we have all seen the massive advances they have made in military technology in the last few years and in reality knowone can be sure of the true capabilitys of most of their equipment.