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By: - 12th August 2005 at 04:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm really not good at ship recognition, but I guess I ought to give this a shot.
I'm fairly certain that we're seeing a Wair conversion of an old V/W class leftover of WWI vintage. You can see the 4in twin mount. There were c13 such ships in service at the time of Dunkirk.
By: - 12th August 2005 at 12:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
HMS Wallace (L 64), destroyer of the Shakespeare class, modified to fast escort 1939 (???)
More info on RN Shakespeare class here
More info on vintage RN destroyers here
By: - 12th August 2005 at 13:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ahah, thanks very much. I thought it might have been a foreign destroyer, Dutch or something like that. Cheers, Rob
By: - 12th August 2005 at 20:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Wallace lacked the forward overhang of the bridge, so I'd guess it isn't she. I can't get more specific, but it is likely one of the following: Valorous, Vanity, Vega, Verdun, Viceroy, Vimiera, Vivien, Westminster, Winchester, Wolfhound, Wolsey, Woolston, Wryneck.
By: - 13th August 2005 at 04:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Actually guys, I've just been pouring over my Jane's recognition books of WWII ships and that is indeed a destroyer but of the V and W class Though this one has been modifide with the removal of the "A" Turret and a new twin gun turret placed in the "B" position. This leads me to believe that it is a W class and Wallice it might be, since she was one of the latter W class destroyers that had this conversion done.
It's really hard to tell with not much to identify it by.
By: - 13th August 2005 at 08:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Wair conversion (and I'm not sure why it got that nickname) was to specialize the ships as fast escorts. All of them carried the same 4in twin mounts, regardless of their original sub-class.
The V/W lineage began with the V-class flotilla leaders, meant as leaders for the R-class ships. The only ship in our list from this series is Valorous.
The V-class ships which followed (including Vanity, Vega, Verdun, Vivien, and Vimiera) were intended to form their own flotillas. They differed in some details from the leaders, but this would be difficult (impossible?) to pick out after their conversions. Thornycroft built two "special" units with certain machinery refinements; Viceroy was one of them.
A repeat order followed, and these were the W-class ships (including Westminster, Wryneck, Winchester, and Wolfhound), essentially identical except in originally carrying triple torpedo mounts that were unavailable for the previous series. Again, Thornycroft built a "special" pair, Wolsey and Woolston.
A couple more series came later, none of them figuring in this topic. Note that the Admiralty was not fastidious about exactly which names were nominally for which class (W-class Voyager, for example).
Wallace was not from a V or W class, but from the Shakespeare class, though some sources claim Shakespeare-class names were initially assigned to the V-class leaders.
Final note: an external feature of the Thornycroft "specials" was a flat-sided second funnel. To me, the ship in the photo appears to have a flat-sided funnel (making it Wolsey, Woolston, or Viceroy), but I wouldn't advise you to trust my eyes. What do you think?
By: - 13th August 2005 at 15:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks for the clarification Tiornu (Interesting anme by the way- where's it from)?
The Wair conversion refers to the W class receiving an upgraded anti air armourment mainly to counter the FW-200 Condor attacks in the North Atlantic (W class, Air action vessel), as soon as I find a reference to this, I'll post it (I only know this because my grandfather told me about these ships, he was a merchie during the war).
By: - 13th August 2005 at 17:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Info on the Admiralty V & W class (as distinct from later - 1942 onward - V and W classes)
Destroyer of the Admiralty V & W class
Valentine, Reconstruction to Fast Escort completed on 27 September 1939.
Valorous, Reconstruction to Fast Escort completed in June 1939.
Vanity, Reconstruction to Fast Escort completed on 12 August 1940.
Vega, Reconstruction to Fast Escort completed on 23 April 1940.
Verdun, Reconstruction to Fast Escort completed on 11 July 1940.
Viceroy, Reconstruction to Fast Escort completed on 10 January 1941.
Vimiera, Reconstruction to Fast Escort completed on 8 January 1940.
Vivien, Reconstruction to Fast Escort completed on 25 October 1939.
Westminster, Reconstruction to Fast Escort completed on 8 January 1940.
Whitley, Reconstruction to Fast Escort completed in October 1938.
Winchester, Reconstruction to Fast Escort completed on 9 April 1940.
Wolfhound, Reconstruction to Fast Escort completed on 8 January 1940.
Wolsey, Reconstruction to Fast Escort completed in December 1939.
Woolston, Reconstruction to Fast Escort completed on 9 October 1939.
Wryneck, Reconstruction to Fast Escort completed in April 1940.
The Image in question shows a completed fast escort conversion. Dunkirk was in May and June 1940. If an Admiralty V/W class ship then it cannot be Vanity, Verdun, or Viceroy. It could possibly but less likely be Vega, Winchester, Wryneck (still working up?). Most likely candidates from this class are: Valentine, Valorous, Vimiera, Vivien, Westminster, Whitley, Wolfhound, Wolsey, and Woolston.
By: - 13th August 2005 at 20:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
"W class, Air action vessel"
Ah, that makes sense.
With Viceroy out of the running, I think we've narrowed it down to Wolsey and Woolston. Any comments on my read of the flat-sided funnel?
(Re "Tiornu": I am a writer, and that is the name of a character in a novel I'm working on. Ultimately it comes from a Gaelic word for nobility.)
By: - 14th August 2005 at 00:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Can no longer see the original picture so its hard to tell for me now.
By: - 14th August 2005 at 05:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Drat! That does make things somewhat more difficult.
By the way, I eliminated Valentine and Whitley as they had been sunk shortly before this particular evacuation photo.
By: - 14th August 2005 at 10:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Here you go guys, I saved it (thought something like this might happen ;) )
Tiornu: I'm looking into the Flat Sided funnel bit as we speak, so I'll get back to you on that!
The Ship in the pic is interesting as the turret is a different type to those I have come across in the Admiralty records. Now I'm not fully finished yet, but I am really starting to think that it may be one of our V class from the RAN which spent a fair bit of time up in those waters and were there at Dunkirk! So bare with me on this case.
As for the name- great choice, I'd like to read your story.
By: - 14th August 2005 at 18:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Here are the Australian V/W's that I can find: Vampire, Vendetta, Voyager, Waterhen. Did I miss any? All of these went into WWII still carrying their original battery of 4in single LA mounts. Vendetta did get a pair of HA guns, eventually, but not until c1943.
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By: - 15th August 2005 at 15:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Tiornu: No mate you haven't missed any and yes I've been checking as well. Actually I've had a rather extencive look at all the differet types of WWII RN destroyers. The forward deck looks like that of an I class and not a V/W class (mainly because of the gun on the same deck as the bridge, not a two leved gun like most of the other destroyers of that time).
I admit that I am not finished looking yet. but I have detected numbers on the side of the ship. It looks like L 62 but I can't be sure. I've checked L-62 and there is a Hunt Type II class which fits the bill, HMS Croome. but again the forward section is all wrong.
By: - 15th August 2005 at 17:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ok I think I have found the ship in question.
HMS Wallace it must be... She was the only "Shakespear class" to be upgraded to Fast Escort class with the dual four inch guns in the shielded turret forward. The only thing that gets me is the number on the side :confused:
By: - 15th August 2005 at 20:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No, I'd still say Wallace is out of the running. Unlike a V/W conversion, she doesn't have the forward overhang of the bridge.
I see that Wolsey had an L02 pennant. Is that possible?
By: - 15th August 2005 at 21:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sorry Mate, I really must disagree with you here, Here's a pic of HMS Velox which is Wolsey's sister ship and in the same class.
Not the dual level guns. A and B turrets. the pic shown originally has one level forward of the bridge. The bridge structure is all wrong also as are the funnels. The main thing to go by is the dual steam horns attached to the front of the forward funnel.
Now here is the pic of HMS Wallace:
Not the level funnels, the bridge structure and the main giveaway, the forward turret.
By: - 15th August 2005 at 23:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Unfortunately Velox has nothing to do with it. (You can see the list of nominees in Wanshan's post above.)
You need to look at a pic of a V/W Wair conversion. If you looked at a pre-conversion shot of Wallace, you would see the LA 4in single A and B mounts, a totally different bridge, and so on. I can probably find a picture of a Wair, but I don't know how to post it here.
By: - 16th August 2005 at 00:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This lists Unit Involvements That Are Commanded By RN Ships At Dunkirk, 1940 05 27 0000 British Evacuation Operation Dynamo Dunkerque.
The Shakespeare class ship HMS Wallace is not on the list. However, there are no fewer than three V & W Admiralty ships on this list.
These are HMS Vega, HMS Wolsey, and HMS Wolfhound. Vega was also known as L41/D52, Wolfhound as D56, Wolsey as L02/D98. So, from the pennant number, It think we got it nailed down: its Wolsey.
Valentine (L69/D49), Valorous (L00/F53) , Vimiera (L29/D23), Vivien (L33), Vega (L41/D52), Vanity (I28/L38/D28), Verdun (L93/D93), Viceroy (L21/D91), Winchester (L55), Wryneck (D21), Westminster (L40/D45), Whitley (L23), Wolfhound (D56), Wolsey (L02/D98), and Woolston (L49).
HMS Vega (after conversion)
By: - 16th August 2005 at 02:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ah yes, a good picture. You can see the front overhang of the bridge.
It does seem that Wolsey is the way to go.
This is fun, with everyone supplying different pieces of the puzzle.
Posts: 2,757
By: Rlangham - 11th August 2005 at 23:20
Just seen this photo on the IWM website and wondered if any of you knew what the name of this Destroyer is, or what class it is? Never seen one like it before, it says its Royal Navy but i can't think of what class it could be.
http://www.iwmcollections.org.uk/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpcgi.exe?AC=GET_RECORD&XC=/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpcgi.exe&BU=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iwmcollections.org.uk%2FqryPhotoImg.asp&TN=Uncat&SN=AUTO1470&SE=1021&RN=32&MR=500&TR=0&TX=1000&ES=0&CS=1&XP=&RF=PhotoImgResults&EF=&DF=PhotoImgDetailed&RL=0&EL=0&DL=0&NP=1&ID=&MF=&MQ=&TI=0&DT=&ST=0&IR=173089&NR=0&NB=0&SV=0&BG=0&FG=0&QS=