UAV thermal signature ?

By: Sens - 30th July 2008 at 18:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Many UAV or UCAV are currently in operations in iraqi and afghanistan theaters.
they certainly face IR MANPADS or some over kind of IR systems. how do they perform against those threats ? what is the typical thermal signature of an entire composite material 's like aircraft ? hope its not a repost...

wide open thread area everyone

Niwininon

Before you can target something, you have to be aware, that there is something to target at all and where to look in a given moment. The range of MANPADS is limited. ;)

By: EdLaw - 30th July 2008 at 19:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

There are a number of issues here. The more expensive UAVs normally fly at altitudes where most IR-based systems would struggle, and some have self defence suites anyway. Some low-end UAVs fly at lower altitudes and are more vulnerable, yet don't have expensive defence measures, for the simple reason that adding such systems would more than double their price! Basically, for some UAVs, it is simply not worth giving them expensive onboard systems. In other cases, the UAVs operating at low level will carry similar systems to normal military aircraft, i.e. defensive aids suites.

As was shown during the Portuguese bush wars, prop aircraft are no less vulnerable than the supposedly 'hotter' jets; in many ways, a lot more vulnerable, since they can't escape the envelope fast enough. The fact is that just about any military aircraft flying around will be hot enough for a MANPADS to lock on. In the case of some UAVs, this is a consideration, and you have to do the calculations as to risk versus cost (since there is no pilot involved).

Why bother putting a $2m DAS onboard a UAV costing $200k! :cool:

By: djcross - 30th July 2008 at 20:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Hiding hot components and use of tailored emissivity paint will reduce the UAV radiant contrast with respect to the hot/cold background. This has the effect of reducing the MANPADS seeker range.

By: EdLaw - 30th July 2008 at 21:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

I agree, there are a lot of simple solutions to the problem that mitigate the risks - as Sens rightly says, you have to be aware of the presence of the UAV to hit it! A lot of UAVs can fly high enough, or at least can be given quiet engines, such that they cannot be heard from the ground. I suspect this may become a major design influence in future, since a decent engine would allow most UAVs flying above, say, 3000ft to be pretty much impossible to hear. Similarly, simply painting the UAVs grey helps reduce the probability of a visual sighting, combined with the low speed - the lower the speed, and the further away, the harder it is to detect movement. This is, of course, primarily a concern for human sighting capabilities; a proper visual/IR sight may negate many of these advantages.

By: Sens - 30th July 2008 at 22:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

- a proper visual/IR sight may negate many of these advantages. -

In this case, you have to deal with something more advanced than MANPADS, (like IRST, I mentionned previously) and I guess you have to check multiple angle or aspect flights in order to reduce the UAV vultime during a mission. This means a lot of experiments and far more technical capabilities.
I remember that IAF destroyed at least one Hizbollah UAV during lebanese war with Python 4 firing from F-16. any other exemple in recents days ? Georgian vs Mig-29...
no SAM's victory ?

Not a clever idea by the IAF, the related prices in mind. Some shells of the vulcan was enough. In most cases the UAVs do not pose a real threat, just a nuisance.

By: djcross - 31st July 2008 at 01:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Taliban has learned to listen for Predators. When the Predators are overhead, Taliban hides. Predators operate at 7-8000ft AGL. To be out of earshot, the UAV has to be 17-20000ft AGL.

By: hexpop - 31st July 2008 at 16:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Serbs managed to down few UAVs during 1999 NATO bombing. Directly from wikipedia: "In December 2002, the first ever dogfight involving a UAV occurred when an Iraqi MiG-25 and a U.S. RQ-1 Predator fired missiles at each other. The MiG's missile destroyed the Predator"

By: Mercurius - 31st July 2008 at 22:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Not a clever idea by the IAF, the related prices in mind. Some shells of the vulcan was enough. In most cases the UAVs do not pose a real threat, just a nuisance.

A film sequence released by the IAF showing the engagement suggests that the fighter did not detect the UAV until it was so close that the Python missile had to fly virtually a 180° turn to reach its target. There was no chance of a gun engagement.You need to remember that the Israelis had received intelligence that Hezbollah was planning to fly warhead-equipped UAVs into Israeli airspace, so engaging any UAVs they detected would have been given a very high priority.

The Mark I eyeball has very little capability against a UAV. Several decades ago, a Flight International journalist reported standing in a field waiting for a UAV to overfly. As it approached, he could hear the growing sound of a jet engine, but even as this built to a crescendo, he did not glimpse the UAV, which by that stage was flying at a relatively low altitude in preparation for recovery. The way he described it to me, he did not catch sight of it until it had returned to the area, cut its engine, and popped its chute.

By: swerve - 31st July 2008 at 22:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Serbs managed to down few UAVs during 1999 NATO bombing. Directly from wikipedia: "In December 2002, the first ever dogfight involving a UAV occurred when an Iraqi MiG-25 and a U.S. RQ-1 Predator fired missiles at each other. The MiG's missile destroyed the Predator"

IIRC, some of them were shot down by helicopters. A helicopter can match course & speed with a low, slow, UAV such as Hunter or Phoenix, enabling door gunners to shoot it down.