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By: - 18th August 2000 at 13:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Aircraft carriers for Australia ?!?!
If the UK decided to use the Eurofighter on its new aircraft carriers, maybe they could share the development costs with Australia. That might make it more bearable for both countries to afford. Rafale M or a naval Eurofighter (or better yet, a naval Su-35, as they've been offered Su-34 and -35 aircraft from Russia to replace F-111's) would be the way to go. I believe everyone knows what I think of the F-18E/F and the JSF...
By: - 19th August 2000 at 11:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Aircraft carriers for Australia ?!?!
hahahahahahahahahahahaha! Sorry about that but just the thought of Australia spending the money to buy the newspaper that has an article about A/C carriers in it is laughable. The study about LSS was just that, a study by some Naval Officers. Australia got out of the carrier game for some very good reasons.
One is not enough but two is too many. There is not enough manpower for the ships we currently have let alone one or two carriers and we do not have the money or manpower to purchase the support ships required by a carrier (AAW destroyers and large AOA). The current program to replace the Hornet and possibly F-111 is called Air 6000. This is already being undermined by bureaucrats who cannot see the point in spending money on defence. They are now saying that instead of looking at what aircraft we should buy as a replacement we should be looking at what CAPABILITY we need to replace. An example is replacing the strategic strike role of the Pig (F-111) with sub launched Tomahawks. By doing this they can break a potential single aircraft replacement program costing anywhere up to Au$5 billion with a series of smaller programs each independantly funded and managed, this brings several advantages to the bureaucrat:
1. Each program can be delayed or cancelled without the popular media understanding what it means in terms of defence force capability,
2. More senior bureaucrats are employed in managing programs,
3. The total cost may be substantially larger than one purchase but it can be spread over a longer period and come from different allocations.
Of course any resonably intelligent person can see this will only send our capability backward, but in Australia defence spending is regarded as something not interesting enough to talk or care about.
By: - 25th August 2000 at 15:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Aircraft carriers for Australia ?!?!
Yes for once I agree w/ what your saying but lets try and think of ways to fix it not just distroy it. I beleive Au should simply join up with the JSF prgram and split costs. This would be the most logical thing considering the JSF is a new aircraft and so many countries want it or the Eurofighter. For now I beleive they should convert an old tanker or some boat to a carrier, untill the day they realize "Oh sh*t its world war three and we have already lost." Maybe then after the allies free them they will think of building defence or at least 2 carriers. Later.
By: - 25th August 2000 at 15:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Aircraft carriers for Australia ?!?!
LAST EDITED ON 25-Aug-00 AT 03:42 PM (GMT)[p]Merlin,
the only reason Australia may build or buy a carrier is to bring its intervention forces to some place its transport aircraft couldn't reach with a cover of F/A-18s if needed (and East Timor was no such case).
The only other possible reason would be to bully around, but - as Mik made it very clear - that's certainly something impossible with the government (and its voters) at the moment.
By: - 25th August 2000 at 16:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Aircraft carriers for Australia ?!?!
Yes exactly! They could stop an atacking force b4 they reach the main land. Or they could bully around like England and US and bomb some countries. As example see Iraq right now. It could help if they changed some tankers to help hold airplanes and then help us bomb Iraq. Later.
By: - 30th August 2000 at 08:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Aircraft carriers for Australia ?!?!
Whilst it is true we are looking at the JSF, I believe this is not really a serious contender due to several reasons.
1. It only has one engine, which although the makers will claim is just as good as one, they are not really. When the fire goes out that is it and we cannot afford attrition buys.
2. If you want to carry a lot of ordnance a long way you need a big airframe. A big airframe needs a lot of power. Mathematics do not lie. Our replacement A/C will have to replace an attack fighter and a strategic bomber with all the range and load requirements that implies.
3. JSF is a second tier A/C and we need the ability to operate independently, which is something only a fisrt tier A/C can do.
Carriers are a very expensive and manpower consuming asset that really has no place in a medium powers arsenal. We have no far flung colonies or regional ambitions that require power projection over such distances as carriers are generally used for. With our current OB only USA would have anything approaching the capability to blockade or force passage through our waters, so why waste money on a show pony so the pussers can be all self important.
By: - 1st September 2000 at 01:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Aircraft carriers for Australia ?!?!
Yup Australia buying carriers doesn't sound appropriate ,given the resources and manpower those ships need ,and even now the timor deployement is considered too expensive when they are only deploying "roughly" a division of troops and equipment .But anyway whats the reason for the carriers? there is no present dangers to Australia itself so it must be mainly used for intervention and thats means joining the USA and Uk on International ops ,what benefits will it bring to Aus? More media coverage?
By: - 3rd September 2000 at 15:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Aircraft carriers for Australia ?!?!
LAST EDITED ON 03-Sep-00 AT 03:52 PM (GMT)[p]Heh, I just wanted to post (last weekend) an answer on this topic, when I learned, that Brazil bought ol' French flattop Clemanceau! Yes, this will happen rather than that with (the revival of) Australian aircraft carriers.
Clemanceau will be refurbished, renamed Sao Paolo and given (sold) to Brazil in November this year. Supposedly, Brazilians will then fly an air group with their Skyhawks (bought from Kuwait) and Sea Kings, while their Minas Gerais will be sold to Argentina, which already has its Super Etendards!
It's good to see one more of those beautifull ships around (together with Skyhawks on its roof) whatever the politics behind that....
By: - 4th September 2000 at 01:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Aircraft carriers for Australia ?!?!
Minas Gerais is a very old ship ,Its goin to cost them to keep it afloat and not being a permanant feature of the dockyard.I wonder If the thing can sail far at all and not return to port when the sea is very rough.Why not buy new sea control ships (something like the spanish and Itallian carriers)with Harriers and seakings ,(what an Irony if they buy Harriers) .These new ships should be easier to keep operational.
By: - 4th September 2000 at 09:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Aircraft carriers for Australia ?!?!
Just for your information, Stormrider:
"Minas Gerais" is in a better shape now, than "25 de Mayo" ever was (since there was a bad fire in her engine-rooms in 1968, as that ship was "Carel Doorman" in Royal Netherlands Navy, before she was sold to Argentina).
The deck of "Minas Gerais" is much larger and has heavier lifts. During her refits in 1981 and 1991 her propulsion was modified and she got new accomodation spaces, a new bridge, sensors and new fire control radars, which were all much better than those on "25 de Mayo".
By: - 4th September 2000 at 12:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Aircraft carriers for Australia ?!?!
Ohh,well its is goin to be the oldest carrier afloat ,call giueness book of record ! we have a new world record to submit.......:)
By: - 4th September 2000 at 18:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Aircraft carriers for Australia ?!?!
LAST EDITED ON 04-Sep-00 AT 06:35 PM (GMT)[p]Stromrider,
are you here to talk about something, exchange opinions and hear some news, or to show us you don't know anything (not even to spell Guiness correctly) and make yourself looking silly?
By: - 5th September 2000 at 00:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Aircraft carriers for Australia ?!?!
Hey Tom can't you take a Joke? but anyway this is not grammar school right,lighten up a bit, won't hurt you a lot right.
Posts: 9
By: glevass - 18th August 2000 at 10:18
Sister magazine Air International is presenting in August
2000 issue's "AirScene" that the Royal Autralian Navy release preliminary plans for the acquisition of three Littoral Support Ships ( LSS ) to enter service in the 2010-2020 timeframe.
These LSS could each carry up to 20 FA-18 Hornet ! ? ! ? ( in 2010 ? ) and an AEW & C on a modern plaltform ( MV-22 Osprey ? ).
Ski Jump/Cables and Catapult/Cables types of operations are both under study.
If this has any chance to materialize, the choice for the next combat aircraft for Australia will certainly be influenced
by it :
1.
Australia probably not have the luxury to choose two different airframes for RAAF and RAN operations.
2.
2010-2020 timeframe for the 3 x LSS correspond to the timing for the actual RAAF F-18 fleet replacement.
3.
Future air operations for these LSS could very well be in some Joint Force 2010 RAAF/RAN fashion, with RAAF crews operating the new combat aircraft on the LSS's.
4.
RAAF officials already seems to prefer the Eurofighter Typhoon as F-18 replacement, but the cost for a naval version of the Typhoon could be very high if the catapult/cables option is chosen.
Knowing that, and assuming that the 3 x LSS will be a reality, what could be the next Australian combat aircraft ?
The Typhoon ?
The Rafale Marine ?
The F-18E/F Hornet ?
The Naval JSF ?
Guy LeVasseur
Pointe au Père,
Québec, Canada