Libyan Air Force

By: minmiester - 28th February 2001 at 11:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: Libyan Air Force

I'd go for more Russian equipment. Infrastructure to support Russian equipment would already be there, and there isn't the pesky issue of non-release of software codes (althought France could also be an option, albeit a more expensive one).

To replace the Mig-25s, I can't think of a better aircraft than, say, the Mig-31!!! :) It would be great to see another operator of this huge interceptor.
For the Mig-23/21, Mirage F1, I'd go for Su-27 variants (Su-30MK). Mig-29 may be considered, but seeing as Libya is a large country, and the Mig-29 is so short legged, this might not be the best option. Besides, the Sukhoi product is far better, and offers better value of money too.
For the Mirage 5, Su-22 and Su-24, I'd go for the Su-32FN/34 (for quite obvious reasons).
Tu-22, are they old enough to warrant replacement?
Maybe some Mig-ATs for the G2AE Galebs (or alpha-jets)
An-70s for the G.222 replacement
Keep the Il-76s for now (as long as they're still quite usable). They're great medium lift aircraft.

MinMiester

By: Ference - 28th February 2001 at 13:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: Libyan Air Force

I agree with your ideas. But J33Nelson, why would you decide to retain the MiG-23BN when you're so happy to sell/scrap the other junk. I wouldn't call the MiG-23BN junk, but it is not a very good a/c. And roughly comparable to the Mirage F-1 which I would prefer over the MiG-23BN, while you want to scrap the Mirage and keep the MiG-23BN.

I heard that Libya is very interested in the MiG-31FE version, maybe we'll see those pretty soon.

Ference.

By: Tom - 28th February 2001 at 13:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: Libyan Air Force

What I - basically - don't understand in this discussion, is the lack of understanding for the realities of operation of such a number of different types by a single air force, which is just emerging on a free market after more than ten years of embargos for arms and spares supplies.

Nelson,
in your "Libyan shopping list", you again include no less but six - to the LAJAF - completely new (and pretty complex) types.

There is always a logic, believe me, even in "Arabic World". Just like most other air forces arund the globe (except, to a certain degree, the EPA and the Venecuelan), the LAJAF will also most probably go for one or two main types (and I guess it will be some of Su-27s versions). Furthermore, they got both the MiG-21 and the MiG-23BNs, but they never used them: just like a large part of the Libyan MiG-25-fleet, attack-Floggers were stored and waited for the case of a global conflict to be used by Soviet crews which would be flown in, while MiG-21s were used by the Palestinian "Force-14".

Consequently, no reports from the fighting in Chad ever mentioned even a single sighting of any MiG-23BNs. However, they very well mentioned Tu-22Bs, different versions of Mirages (which are now stored as well), Su-22s and SF.260s. Finally, since the early '80s, there was a trend in the - then - LARAF, now LAJAF, towards long-ranged, two-engined fighters (see MiG-25s and Su-24s), because of the area needed to be defended, the ranges at which that AF operated, and the often forgotten fact, that the Libyan AF is one with nummerous expeditionary experiences (Uganda, Chad, Sudan, Congo).

Il-78 tankers were already delivered - together with Su-24s - in 1989. Furthermore, several Il-76s were also re-built into tankers for the use with Mirage F.1ADs. Thus, hardly any similar aircraft will be needed any more. Tu-22Bs were retired in early '90s, while Su-24s were subsequently mothbattled. Only small numbers of both types were in service any way, thus, replacing them with Tu-22Ms and Su-24MKs makes no sense. Instead, as said, something like Su-32 (again: a version from the Su-27 family) could do the job much more efficiently (albait, the Russians would have to modify them so far, that they would get a water supply to the toilett).

I hope this helps.

Regards
Tom
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By: Tom - 28th February 2001 at 14:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

MiG-23BN comparable to Mirage F.1?!?

LAST EDITED ON 28-Feb-01 AT 02:14 PM (GMT)[p]Ference,
well, I wouldn't bet even five cents on this one. MiG-23BN is nowhere nearly/roughly/broadly (or else) comparable to Mirage F.1.

Even Soviets were deeply disappointed with the original MiG-23BNs, that was the reason for their readiness to sell such a number of these aircraft (actually, almost all MiG-23BNs they built) abroad. Only the subsequent - and highly upgraded - versions, like East German MiG-23BK/MiG-24, Iraqi MiG-23BKs and Indian MiG-23"BN"s, capable of carrying and firing guided ammunitions are "broadly" comparable to Mirage F.1E, but they still lack a radar.

Libyans started selling their MiG-23s already in 1988 (Sudan) and continued during the last year (Zimbabwe). The case of their MiG-23BNs is "closed" IMHO, and the rest will be scraped: they never paid for them any way.

Regards
Tom
reach out and touch

PS Congratulations on your firstborn!

By: Ference - 28th February 2001 at 14:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: MiG-23BN comparable to Mirage F.1?!?

Tom,

You're absolutely right. My comment about the Mig-23BN being rougly comparable to the Mirage F-1 did sound strange. But this was just me phrasing my comment very poorly (maybe it's the shock of recently having become a Daddy that makes me lose some of my writing skills!). I should have said inferior instead of roughly comparable. My fault! But thanks for your comment.

I tried to express my surprise when I saw that J33Nelson said that he'd choose to scrap the F1s but keep the MiG-23BNs. As I said in my previous mail I would do the opposite (not accounting for the actual state of Libyan a/c (scrapped/stored) but keeping this on a theoretical (what if..) level). What I meant that I'd choose Mirage F1s over MiG-23BNs any time!

Ference.

Thanks for your congrats!

By: JAG - 28th February 2001 at 16:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: Libyan Air Force

Would it be worth the cost to repleace G2AEs with MigATs...?? I mean if it is to be used as a trainer G2 can still do the job.

Anyway the Libia ha secured 50+ Mig31 from the unconfirmed sources ,,, but that embargo will mean it will have to wait for a while at least.. with the handing of those two men responsible for Lockerby or one should i say... i wonder what excuse will be found now to keep the sanctions?

By: Tom - 28th February 2001 at 18:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: Libyan Air Force

Juan,
what I meaned when I mentioned the Venezuelan AF was, that - I know that has a political background (that's whay "to a certain degree") - it is a pretty good example for a small air force buying aircraft from different sources, and then having problems with bringing them all to the same standard. I could equally bring the Egyptian or Iraqi AF during the '70s and '80s as similar examples, but I highly doubt, that most of the people here would "remember" them as such.

JAG,
the question of the replacement of Libyan Galebs, is much more complicated than it seems. Namely, if one has such a number of SF.260s and G-2As for such a long time as basic trainers - like Libyans do - then the whole system of the air force is based on it. That's extremely complicated to change. That's not only aircraft any more, but it also needs a completely new supply basis, re-training of - literally - the whole air force, the change of the whole training sylabdus, etc.

Believe me, there are always good reasons for such long discussions, testing, changing of decisions, renewed testing etc. in most air forces when it comes to replace the basic trainer. Despite 12 years of embargo, the LAJAF is in a reasonably good shape. That's not without the reason as well, and I'm sure, somebody there at the HQ in Tripolis will be clever enough to keep it the same way.

Regards
Tom
reach out and touch

By: ink - 28th February 2001 at 18:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: Libyan Air Force

Wouldn't a comprehensive upgrade programe bring many of the aircraft to a more modern standard, particularly the Su-24s and MiG-25s. This would negate the need for large purchases of varrious types and could involve local companies (forgive me I have no idea what state the Lybian aerospace industry is in) with the obvious Russian help.

By: ogini - 28th February 2001 at 19:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: Libyan Air Force

I heard that the LARAF recived as many as 188 MiG-23's and inmediatly 50 were stored (for Soviet pilots to harras shipping in the Med in case of a WW3).
an extremly large number of SF-260W's were bought (some 240) and several were used as a political meassure in a kind of Libyan Force projection or Libyan MAP. Nicaragua got some. The same thing happened with a large fleet of L-39's, even 4 were donated to the Sandinistas.
But the Q still remains: how to modernize?
First define how many fighters/bombers/transports/trainers/helicopters we need
and then what to do with all the junk:
I think that some 300 modern fighters/bombers are ebnough to guarantee oil shipments and increase precense in the Med.
I would:
1) modernize the Su-22 fleet (80) for CAS dutties
2) buy 50 Su-30s to replace MiG-25s in interceptor role
3) buy 35 Su-32FN to replace Su-24s and Mirage 5s with incresed presence in the Med
4) buy 75 Rafales to replace Mirage F.1 and MiG-23s (trade in Mirage F-1's and Mirage 5s)
5) buy 60 Su-30MKs to replace the rest.
Now for support:
1) transform 8 Su-24MKs to EW aircraft
2) transform 4 Su-24MKs to Su-24MR
3) convert up to 10 Il-76 to tanker/transport config (maybe that is already done)
4) convert 2 Tu-22 to EW config with French help
5) Upgrade existing G-222s
6) buy 4 A-50 Mainstay AWACS stations
7) modernize Mi-8/-17 fleet
8) return all CH-47s to service
9) Large investment: Training: buy SF-260Es and Alenia Yak/AM-130

Now what to do with the junk:
1) Equip the Palestinian Air Force with 24 of the best kept MiG-21s and 18 MiG-23s, sell the rest to African nations. Throw in a few SF-260s (12).
2) Sell 20 MiG-25s to Algeria
3) Trade in the SF-260W (120) for 30 new SF-260Es, buy 20 more

By: Tom - 28th February 2001 at 20:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: Libyan Air Force

This is a very interesting possibility, Ink.

While there is nothing like "Libyan Aerospace Industries" (at least not to a such degree, certain degree of basic refurbishments is being done at depot level), this will certainly a very interesting solution if Libyans decide to go for Russian hardware again, but not to get all to dependable on Russians like before.

Basically, it should not be a problem to modify Libyan MiG-25Ps with a good part of MiG-31 avionics, yet, my guess is, that there is a large question mark about the future of Su-24s with the LAJAF: basically, one could replace all the Su-24s, Mirages, Su-22s, MiG-23s, Tu-22Bs and most other combat assets with a batch of 40-50 new Su-32s (an idea certainly very wellcome for Russian ideas) and a comprehensive upgrade of available MiG-25 airframes. This would, namely, mean the retention of current capabilities (or, actually, a considerable increase of them), while the number different types and airframes, would be considerably lowered, thus easing the maintenance.

Regards
Tom
reach out and touch

By: Tom - 28th February 2001 at 21:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

The message that didn't came through...

LAST EDITED ON 28-Feb-01 AT 09:50 PM (GMT)[p]We're now actually back to "please, read my post again" topic here. But OK. Never minds. I'll try it again.

Yet, before I go on, I'm first going to be very unpleasant and ask two serious questions Nelson:

a) do you actually know how many of which aircraft are there in service with the LAJAF any more?

b) what do you exactly know about deliveries of Su-24s to Libya?

Regards
Tom
reach out and touch

PS Oh, and there is also a third question. Namely, if anybody knows why I said following on the end of my post #5: "...something like Su-32...could do the job much more efficiently (albait, the Russians would have to modify them so far, that they would get a water supply to the toilett)."

By: PhantomII - 28th February 2001 at 22:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: MiG-25

I am glad to know that many people would like to see Libya keep the Foxbats. I think this is a wise decision. They are still competent interceptors, and upgrading them with new radar and AAM's would be a wise option. Perhaps evening putting in a new engine type would be wise although expensive. I think they should follow a path similar to the one Syria has taken. Syrain MiG-25PD aircraft are now designated MiG-25M, and they can carry and launch the R-33 (AA-9 Amos) long-range missile. With AA-9 and possibly some AA-11's the MiG-25 would be a much more deadly foe.
With regard to the SF.260W's, you can place them in the trainer/light attack category as they can carry quite a substantial amount of weapons. They are the perfect aircraft for COIN, FAC, and even anti-helicopter duties. I have seen one at an air show and it was one of the most impressive performacnes I have ever seen by any aircraft. I really enjoyed it, and I now have a healthy respect for that aircraft. Don't overlook it.

By: ogini - 28th February 2001 at 23:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: The message that didn't came through...

Libya got 15 Su-24MK's in 1989, the israelis were very nervous about it, since according to them, the Fencers could deliver Chemical bombs that qere already in Qaddafy's armament list to Israeli cities. I know that there was a second batch of Fencers that were delivered to Qaddafy right before the Soviet Union halted arms sales. However the exact number of the 2nd batch is not known for sure. According to a source, Qaddafy had a 3rd batch on order, He wanted to get a total of 45 Fencers in 3 batches. The second batch could have comprised anywere between 7 and 12 Fencers. So the total delivered to the LARAF is between 22 and 27.
Nelson: UN Embargoes mean that countries just have to watch for US and Media watchdogs to get the equipment in. Nothing more.