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By: - 2nd March 2006 at 10:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
With all due respects to the maturing Chinese industry.. I would still say that it's behind the Russians even in the avionics field..
By: - 2nd March 2006 at 11:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
With all due respects to the maturing Chinese industry.. I would still say that it's behind the Russians even in the avionics field..
Base on what? 10yrs outdated news or info ???
By: - 2nd March 2006 at 13:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Based on the systems that the Russians field TODAY compared to the very little known Chinese systems in field service today.. Avionics is not only RADAR/ONBOARD COMPUTERS/FBW/HUD/HMD etc etc..
Chinese scientists/engineers may have betterd the performance in some areas.. but there is some way to go..
By: - 2nd March 2006 at 14:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Since a lot of breakthroughs are being made in China these days in all the areas of aviation i.e. avionics, engines, composite construction etc.How then a totally Indigenized J11 will compare with modern versions of Su-27 coming from Russia itself e.g. Su-35. It would appear that Russian version may have an edge in engine department and Chinese in avionics area.
Russia succesfully exported a number of systems including Su-27. Additionally, there are more prototypes those state of development can only be speculated. Russia has other fields in which it has remarkable technology, unfortunately mostly military.
China in the contrast has until now only exported the J-7. Designs like the J-8 could not win any foreign customers. The FC-1 is still in development and the J-10 is object of speculation.
From the safe point of view there is little to expect from China. None of their more advanced programs achieved a state of amturity yet that might give any conclusions about the potential of the industry. Although so many people write about it the information available is very poor and often influenced by cheerish newsfeeders. Where there are no facts, speculation and basic judgement step in.
China cannot produce a competitive fighter aircraft at the moment without extensive help from Russia/Europe/USA.
By: - 2nd March 2006 at 14:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Russia succesfully exported a number of systems including Su-27. Additionally, there are more prototypes those state of development can only be speculated. Russia has other fields in which it has remarkable technology, unfortunately mostly military.
China in the contrast has until now only exported the J-7. Designs like the J-8 could not win any foreign customers. The FC-1 is still in development and the J-10 is object of speculation.
I admit Russia has other areas of achievement but I believe,avonic is a area which needs continuous R&D,fund and upgrade require which Russia ill-afford to and start to lack behind.
J-8 is a fighter that is suitable for domestic doctrine and will hardly appease foreign customer! Not securing a deal is not a big surprise,consider nowdays demand ,multi-role and dog-fight!
I think Russian has reach a point which it can't offer much for its customer,seeing how stagnant Russian military deal will tell u the answer(In aviation,compare to 3-4yrs ago)! Most of yr so-call successful deal of Russian were based on 3-4yrs ago..
From the safe point of view there is little to expect from China. None of their more advanced programs achieved a state of amturity yet that might give any conclusions about the potential of the industry. Although so many people write about it the information available is very poor and often influenced by cheerish newsfeeders. Where there are no facts, speculation and basic judgement step in.
true,Hope time will tell :)
China cannot produce a competitive fighter aircraft at the moment without extensive help from Russia/Europe/USA.
U r correct but I believe this will change very soon. Avonics is a good example.None of the Chinese made modern fighter fitted with Russia radar,the engine will follow soon in 1-2yrs time! The fact,from PLAAF AEW to modern chinese fighter having none of their avionics deal won over for the PLAAF and PLAN offer some true abt the decline of Russia advantage in avionics...
By: - 2nd March 2006 at 14:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Russia is offering India the Mig-35 with 3D-TVC, AESA radar and a 6000hr airframe life, show me a chinese fighter that can match that now?
I will grant you that chinese avionics are improving rapidly, as is every part of the chinese aerospace industry, but it needs another decade to fully mature and get the technology currently being develope into service. For instance we have seen the compressor stage for the next gen fighter engine, the FC1-04 has advanced aerodynamic features but has yet to fly and is only a mid-sized aircraft. Once these things get brought together in a top line fighter (j-xx) then china will be on par with the rest of the world, although possibly not the US.
By: - 2nd March 2006 at 14:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Russia is offering India the Mig-35 with 3D-TVC, AESA radar and a 6000hr airframe life, show me a chinese fighter that can match that now?
I will grant you that chinese avionics are improving rapidly, as is every part of the chinese aerospace industry, but it needs another decade to fully mature and get the technology currently being develope into service. For instance we have seen the compressor stage for the next gen fighter engine, the FC1-04 has advanced aerodynamic features but has yet to fly and is only a mid-sized aircraft. Once these things get brought together in a top line fighter (j-xx) then china will be on par with the rest of the world, although possibly not the US.
China don have the need to offer their best radar cos they r financially well-off.I talking abt avionics only why engine and other crap come out? China is secret abt all its abilities but from all Russia trying to offer China and all being rejected .I can't help feeling abt the abilities of Russian aivonics! The fact Russia now r more willing to offer advance stuff to China but still get nothing out of it even convinces me more!
By: - 2nd March 2006 at 14:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Get real, china dosnt have an AESA fighter radar that is anywhere near ready as opposed to Russia planning to flight test the ZHuk-A next year. No chinese aircraft has flown with Indigenous TVC, and the J-10 looks as if it will never get an indigenous engine.
By: - 2nd March 2006 at 14:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I admit Russia has other areas of achievement but I believe,avonic is a area which needs continuous R&D,fund and upgrade require which Russia ill-afford to and start to lack behind.
[...]
I think Russian has reach a point which it can't offer much for its customer,seeing how stagnant Russian military deal will tell u the answer(In aviation,compare to 3-4yrs ago)! Most of yr so-call successful deal of Russian were based on 3-4yrs ago..
That is my opinion, too, but I normally don't say it that clear. there are so manny MiG-happy people around here who still believe in the final Russian aircraft to come soon. May it be the PAK-FA, the MiG Bingo the Su-66RST, there're all just paper-tigers.
U r correct but I believe this will change very soon. Avonics is a good example.None of the Chinese made modern fighter fitted with Russia radar,the engine will follow soon in 1-2yrs time! The fact,from PLAAF AEW to modern chinese fighter having none of their avionics deal won over for the PLAAF and PLAN offer some true abt the decline of Russia advantage in avionics...
Two versions:
1. Chinese Carneval
China develops sexy looking aircraft and flies round the block with them from time to time. Some spotters photograph the aircraft with new payloads, just to blacken out serial numbers and any real information. Whole world says:"whooo, they have fighter!". Then they present the somehow swept all-fighter, definetly 10 times better than a Eurofighter welded on an F-22. But finally they have to admit that they just played BS-bingo and actually the whole thing can't fly a real mission. They stick to their J-11 and participate in the next Suchoi SomeThing, so that it might come to live.
2. Chinese Foxiness
China export J-7 and FC-1, that are more or less still a J-7. They fly J-11 with Russian stuff inside and everybody knows: they can't do sh/t! But one day the unveile the J-10 in a contest and LM is so impressed that they immediatly dumb their F-16 and Boeing renames the F-18E the "Super Hopeless". China is big, everybody buys his DVD-players and fighter aircraft there.
Truth:
Somewhere in between.
My opinion:
75% 1st version, 25% second version.
By: - 2nd March 2006 at 15:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Russia is offering India the Mig-35 with 3D-TVC, AESA radar and a 6000hr airframe life, show me a chinese fighter that can match that now?
I will grant you that chinese avionics are improving rapidly, as is every part of the chinese aerospace industry, but it needs another decade to fully mature and get the technology currently being develope into service. For instance we have seen the compressor stage for the next gen fighter engine, the FC1-04 has advanced aerodynamic features but has yet to fly and is only a mid-sized aircraft. Once these things get brought together in a top line fighter (j-xx) then china will be on par with the rest of the world, although possibly not the US.
Russia offers to develop an aircraft with the name MiG-35, which may have AESA radar and 3D-TVC. Of course only, if India pays for it and can wait until 2008 or 2009 until this is available. Russia does not have that technology available right now. It might be accessible because they have the knowledge, but it is not integrated (hugh difference).
You people should always differentiate between "plan" and "real". Get some engineering experience and you will see the difference. Anybody who had ever to do with aircraft development (and so called "brake-through" technologies) is a pessimist!
By: - 2nd March 2006 at 15:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
.
With all due respects to the maturing Chinese industry.. I would still say that it's behind the Russians even in the avionics field..
behind the Russians even in the avionics:
With respect to avionics: Somehow, I think the Chinese are charting
a course that is distinct and totally different from that of which the Russians have
incorporated into their export items because, these Russian items are designed more specifically
to deal with regional problems and not to take care of global threats.
Facts: Even here, they would use the latest
of F-16s -- not the MiGs or Suhkoi -- as reference because Russian items
and avionics is not what they must deal with.
http://www.china.org.cn/english/scitech/159743.htm
For argument sakes: Who knows if an Imperial Japan of a kind might
not again make a debut in this world and that the shadows of the Nanjing
massacres which is likely still fresh in the memories of many a Chinese might not in
fact be looming ominously and dangerously over the horizon again?
.
By: - 2nd March 2006 at 16:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Get real, china dosnt have an AESA fighter radar that is anywhere near ready as opposed to Russia planning to flight test the ZHuk-A next year. No chinese aircraft has flown with Indigenous TVC, and the J-10 looks as if it will never get an indigenous engine.
Even if true, that does not mean that they
are not working behind closed doors and that they have a tendency
of shocking and surprising every one of us.
.
By: - 2nd March 2006 at 16:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
China don have the need to offer their best radar cos they r financially well-off.I talking abt avionics only why engine and other crap come out? China is secret abt all its abilities but from all Russia trying to offer China and all being rejected .I can't help feeling abt the abilities of Russian aivonics! The fact Russia now r more willing to offer advance stuff to China but still get nothing out of it even convinces me more!
China is not going to rely primarily on Russian
concepts because Russian goods are shared with everyone
and that won't do China any deeds or benefits.
For erxamples: What good will it do if Hanoi knows
exactly where China's Su's are and China visa versa? She has to
come up with solutions to the problems she faces and she is coming up
with solutions to the problems that is confronting her.
:p Another example: What good will it do
for China if for examples her arch rival "Pakistan" can
have exactly what she has been offered? :p
I don't think China is that stupid. But, if it's something intended
for her to start the ball bouncing, Yes! it's a necessary evil. But indefinitely,
as a dependence? No way Jose!!! And, she is not going to wait for the year 3000 or an OK
from anyone before she starts fiddling with her own ideas either.
.
By: - 2nd March 2006 at 20:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That is my opinion, too, but I normally don't say it that clear. there are so manny MiG-happy people around here who still believe in the final Russian aircraft to come soon. May it be the PAK-FA, the MiG Bingo the Su-66RST, there're all just paper-tigers.Two versions:
1. Chinese Carneval
China develops sexy looking aircraft and flies round the block with them from time to time. Some spotters photograph the aircraft with new payloads, just to blacken out serial numbers and any real information. Whole world says:"whooo, they have fighter!". Then they present the somehow swept all-fighter, definetly 10 times better than a Eurofighter welded on an F-22. But finally they have to admit that they just played BS-bingo and actually the whole thing can't fly a real mission. They stick to their J-11 and participate in the next Suchoi SomeThing, so that it might come to live.2. Chinese Foxiness
China export J-7 and FC-1, that are more or less still a J-7. They fly J-11 with Russian stuff inside and everybody knows: they can't do sh/t! But one day the unveile the J-10 in a contest and LM is so impressed that they immediatly dumb their F-16 and Boeing renames the F-18E the "Super Hopeless". China is big, everybody buys his DVD-players and fighter aircraft there.Truth:
Somewhere in between.My opinion:
75% 1st version, 25% second version.
I'm sure the same thing can be said vice versa. The truth behind your evaluation can be based somewhere between denial and "expert" knowledge.
Interesting that all the positive aspects and achievements of the J-10 program are given credit to the Israelis and the Lavi program, but any negativity and pessimism is purely due to the Chinese. How can that be when the J-10 is "100%" Lavi? You can't have it both ways or "in between."
By: - 3rd March 2006 at 07:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm sure the same thing can be said vice versa. The truth behind your evaluation can be based somewhere between denial and "expert" knowledge.Interesting that all the positive aspects and achievements of the J-10 program are given credit to the Israelis and the Lavi program, but any negativity and pessimism is purely due to the Chinese. How can that be when the J-10 is "100%" Lavi? You can't have it both ways or "in between."
Can't remember to have mentioned the Lavi program at all. My "positions" are extrem ones. I could deliver a more sober one, but the discussions here normally don't honor it.
The J-10 is surely derived from the Lavi, but the level of transfer is limited as J-10 is bigger and Lavi was still in early development phase. The Israelis show the difficulties in development of a fighter. I just want to point out that all nations that developed such aircraft (USA, Europe, Russia) faced huge problems although being experienced in that field. I don't expect China to totally fail, but I expect the usual delays. Chinese projects have often been a little bit too optimistic.
So, the original question if China is due to pass Russia , gets a clear NO. The prerequisite stated by 'fft' are also doubtful.
By: - 3rd March 2006 at 07:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Get real, china dosnt have an AESA fighter radar that is anywhere near ready as opposed to Russia planning to flight test the ZHuk-A next year. No chinese aircraft has flown with Indigenous TVC, and the J-10 looks as if it will never get an indigenous engine.
J-10 uses PESA radar right now with 3D TVC. If there is anything that China has learnt from su-27, it would be that the Russian systems break down far easier. I'm pretty sure in practice, the much talked about mig-35 won't last as long as J-10 in terms of service life.
As for the WS-10 issue part, J-10 will most likely switch to it once the production level is high enough.
If you look at the cockpit of FC-1 04 and any of the Russian cockpit, 04 is clearly more advanced. Let's just say that J-10 has a better cockpit than that right now. We can compare the processors, China is more advanced in this field. We can compare the FBW, J-10 has a quadriplex digital FBW. Mig-29 can't match that.
As for AESA radar, are you going to believe the Phazotron people who constantly claim that China's ESA development is far behind? China doesn't even let the Russians see their best radar. When was the last time that the Russians actually won a radar competition in China? Zhemchug was offered against 1473 when it was still probably the best radar Phazotron had and it lost out on performance. Kopyo-F was offered against KLJ-10, and it lost out. And Kopyo-F is the most advanced Kopyo radar available.
By: - 3rd March 2006 at 11:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
J-10 dosnt use a PESA right now, it uses a mechanically scanned array. It also dosnt use TVC right now, bith these are being worked on but there is no evidence that they have flown yet. The TVC is a direct purchase from Russia so it isnt even chinese.
Some 300 AL-31FN variants have been ordered, thats enough to keep the J-10 production line going until 2010 if the chinese maintain a J-10 output of 5 a month.
By: - 3rd March 2006 at 12:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
J-10 dosnt use a PESA right now, it uses a mechanically scanned array. It also dosnt use TVC right now, bith these are being worked on but there is no evidence that they have flown yet. The TVC is a direct purchase from Russia so it isnt even chinese.
Some 300 AL-31FN variants have been ordered, thats enough to keep the J-10 production line going until 2010 if the chinese maintain a J-10 output of 5 a month.
Please note that TVC is not just an modification you put in with the next heavy maintenance. It needs complete refinement of aircraft control laws to use it. Otherwise it is of little use. The only aircraft having a fully integrated TVC is the F-22 (and maybe this Suchoi for India, but don't know it). All other aircraft (including MiG-29OVT) are prototypes in various stages of development (or with ceased development activities). The J-10 wasn't spotted with too many external configurations, so one can see the stage of control law development.
A radar is nothing to just quick change, either. Mechanical antennas are good, too. AESA is not a magic thing. I would doubt that the J-10 radar has the capabilities of the present Eurofighter/Rafale radar. "Working on it" can be everything from 5 people to 500 people.
Don't get fooled by press-releases, use common thinking!
By: - 3rd March 2006 at 17:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
J-10 dosnt use a PESA right now, it uses a mechanically scanned array. It also dosnt use TVC right now, bith these are being worked on but there is no evidence that they have flown yet. The TVC is a direct purchase from Russia so it isnt even chinese.
Some 300 AL-31FN variants have been ordered, thats enough to keep the J-10 production line going until 2010 if the chinese maintain a J-10 output of 5 a month.
you have no evidence that it's not using PESA radar. You are just assuming that it still uses a slotted array one. Let's just say that the Chinese AESA development is a lot further ahead than what some people in thread thinks. I will leave it as that.
As for TVC, the latest AL-31FN are equipped with 3D TVC. The first 2 of the 3 batches of these engines are already sent to China, the final batch arrives in the 3rd quarter of this year. The original 54 were used up last year, that's why they had to make the recent 100 purchase. If that 100 delivered engine are really the FM1 standard that the Russians are saying, then the most recent 50 J-10s should be using FM1. As for modification to J-10, no one outside CAC knows exactly what kind of modifications will be made. I'm sure CAC had been testing out TVC engine of J-10 prototype for a few years. Remember, it was first promoted to China in 2000 Zhuhai airshow I think. Also, the indigenous TVC program is also in the works. We saw a 2D TVC nozzle called "Axen" coming out in 2003. That's supposedly going to be integrated with WS-10 series and should be ready by the time they are putting WS-10 on J-10.
As I said, no such thing as 300 AL-31FNs being ordered. It may happen. Do a simple math. In the next 4 years, there will like be 250-300 J-10s produced after the current 100 31s are used up. You probably need about 250 spares for the newly produced and existing J-10s and another 300 for new airframes. That's 550 AL-31FNs. I have no doubt more AL-31FNs will be imported, because WS-10's production definitely can't handle that.
By: - 3rd March 2006 at 17:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Do you have any proof that the J-10 has a PESA? Do you have anything to show that there are currently J-10's fitted with TVC?
The AL-31FM1 deal was only sighned in thlatter half of last year, the engines are not likely to be delivered yet.
A further order for regular AL-31FNs was made after the original 54 deal. We have seen a picture of the last 100th J-10 and it did not have a TVC engine.
Posts: 291
By: fft - 2nd March 2006 at 09:16
Since a lot of breakthroughs are being made in China these days in all the areas of aviation i.e. avionics, engines, composite construction etc.
How then a totally Indigenized J11 will compare with modern versions of Su-27 coming from Russia itself e.g. Su-35. It would appear that Russian version may have an edge in engine department and Chinese in avionics area.