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By: - 22nd August 2005 at 11:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Logic
Certainly a logic there.
The Israelis purchased both Spitfires and the Avia/Me109 from Czechoslovakia, so why not the Avia/Me262?
Mark
By: - 22nd August 2005 at 11:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I believe that about 17 Avia S.92/CS.92s were produced, with the type entering service with the Czech air arm around 1949/1950. The Yugoslavian air arm ordered two in 1947, but both were cancelled before delivery.
I've never seen any other reference to the IAF receiving the Avia S.92, but it is a fascinating "What if..." that needs further research.
Regards,
Jan
By: - 22nd August 2005 at 12:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What a fascinating idea.
It's well known that the airframe and technology of the 262 was significantly more advanced than the Meteor or Vampire, while I presume the F-86 was the next generation again.
The problem with the 262 was the engines going bang in the wrong way, as might have happened over Israel. So I'd diagree with the 'hopelessly antiquated' statement, but agree with the 'limited service life'!
By: - 22nd August 2005 at 13:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
hmmmmm - very interesting indeed !
the Meteor entered service with the IDFAF in 1953, the French Mistère II's and IV's arrived in 1954, the Ouragans shortly thereafter.....
What is interesting, however, ist this bit of information taken from the IDFAF site:
March - June 1950
Cpt. Mordechai (Moti) Hod (who would later become Commander in Chief of the IAF) undergoes retraining as a jet pilot, and becomes the IAF's first jet pilot.
Question is: Where did he get his training and on what type ?
This topic definitely needs more research !
Martin
By: - 23rd August 2005 at 16:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Can someone of the resident Mods link this thread to the ModMil forum, where there is a pretty well-informed Israeli presence (Skythe, where are you when you're needed?)
Fascinating indeed!
By: - 23rd August 2005 at 19:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Copied to Mod-Mil as requested
Can someone of the resident Mods link this thread to the ModMil forum, where there is a pretty well-informed Israeli presence (Skythe, where are you when you're needed?)Fascinating indeed!
Done
By: - 23rd August 2005 at 21:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
i did some search but did not come up with any czech built s-92, just s-99 and s-199 that israel bought from czech. maybe someone from ACIG can help?
By: - 23rd August 2005 at 21:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In 1948, Israel had signed a deal with Czechoslovakia for several Avia S-199 fighters. These were crated and shipped by Israeli transport planes. What is little known is that included with the shipments were 3 crates containing S-92 jets (licensed version of the Me-262) and several spare engines.
These were assembled and housed in a hanger at the far end of Ekron AFB and kept in secret. To fly these planes, Israel recruited former RAF test pilot Flight Capt. Henry Biggles. Biggles had flown several captured German aircraft including the Me-262 and would be the perfect pilot to get theses planes operational.
Unfortunately, on the first test flight, one of the other pilots landed too fast and ran off the end of the runway. The plane was cannibalized to keep the other two flying. Due to shortages in fuel and ammo, the planes were seldom used and only achieved one kill against an Egyptian C-47.
The kit is the Revell ProModeler 1/72nd scale Me-262. The model was built out of the box and fit well except for where the rear of the wing meets the fuselage. I put a brace in to assist with the fit. Model was sprayed with a rattle can and decals scrounged from an old Micro Scale Israeli set.
http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal4/3101-3200/Gal3110_S-92_Peterson/gal3110.htm
hope this helps to clear it out ;)
By: - 23rd August 2005 at 22:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Actually this was a silly week what if model :(
By: - 23rd August 2005 at 22:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
i know but that was the closest i could get :(
By: - 23rd August 2005 at 22:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I wrote an email to the Israeli airforce let's hope they'll answer :rolleyes:
By: - 23rd August 2005 at 22:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I found this gem in Bill Norton's excellent book on the history of the Israeli Air Force "Air War on the Edge" p. 150,"According to Egyptian and British intelligence, a jet fighter of unknown type exploded in flight inside Israeli airspace during April 1950. The British thought that it might be a de Havilland Vampire of unknown origin, while the Egyptians stated that they had information revealing that the IAF had secretly taken delivery of eight crated Avia S.92 jets. The S.92 was the Messerschmitt Me 262A-1A built in Czechoslovakia following the World War. The Czechs' Russian masters might have approved such a sale in the first half of 1950, and Israel may have felt an urgent need to answer the threat posed by the new Egyptian Meteors, which arrived in October 1949, to buy this, the only jet available to them. However, the Me 262 was hopelessly antiquated in 1950 and the late Second World War technology was of very limited service life. If the story is true, it is odd that the Israelis would not have admitted to operating the Me 262, no matter how briefly and unsuccessfully, in the time since 1950."
Can anyone add to this fascinating story?
Regards,
Jan
To give all infos availabe about the IDF-AF, Bill Norton kept this too.
There is to read, that the British recognised that a jet-fighter explodet in flight inside Israeli airspace during April 1950. The British thought, that it might be a de Havilland Vampire of unknown origin, while the Egyptians stated .... 8 Avia S.92 ..
The British intrests were related to the Canal and good relationships to Egypt.
They did not say so, but the only Nation in the region with a common ceasefire-line and real jet-fighters was Egypt.
In October 1949 Egypt received its first Meteors a F4 and a T7.
Important to that reported incident, it received in December 1949 a Vampire FB5 and two FB52s also.
The weapons-embargo to that region was in force, when that incident happened. Israel used that incident to push Britain to allow Meteors for Israel too. Later on the first victims of the Israeli Meteors were?
The Vampire was praised for its ease to fly. All Egyptian jets were outside the reach of every Israeli piston-engine intercepter. The first tactical use of the Egyptian Jets could be what some month later? I think that answer is evident. When was the Israeli Independence Day in 1950?!
To demonstrate their superior mount to the Israelis and those could do nothing about that. A tremendous boost to the national pride after the defeat in 1948/49. Not long time in use, some sort of desaster may have struck that recce or demonstration flight.
The Egyptians had to react to the British outing and responded with a counter claim. Why not a similar Avia story again. 8 reported S.92?!
The Israelis had no intrest to reveal their own impotence against such incursions to the home-audiance. Two redfaced parties and smiling British.
By: - 24th August 2005 at 10:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Geezz, that is fascinating.. If Hitler learnt that next to Bf109Gs with Jumo211 engines the Israelis have also flown his hi-tech babe, he would start rotating in his grave! :)
By: - 24th August 2005 at 19:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You mean in his bomb crater? :diablo:
By: - 25th August 2005 at 08:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You mean in his bomb crater? :diablo:
Quite original grave-style, don't you think? :diablo:
By: - 25th August 2005 at 21:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well actually his last remnants now lie in a Russian chocolate box :D (no joke!)
By: - 12th September 2005 at 09:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Got the answer from the Israeli air force today! Very nice service :D
Unfortunately they said that the Avia S-92 was never operated. :(
By: - 12th September 2005 at 10:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Operational
Operated?
Is that the same as evaluated?
Mark
By: - 12th September 2005 at 11:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Operated?Is that the same as evaluated?
Mark
Yes!
Posts: 250
By: Jan - 22nd August 2005 at 10:12
I found this gem in Bill Norton's excellent book on the history of the Israeli Air Force "Air War on the Edge" p. 150,
"According to Egyptian and British intelligence, a jet fighter of unknown type exploded in flight inside Israeli airspace during April 1950. The British thought that it might be a de Havilland Vampire of unknown origin, while the Egyptians stated that they had information revealing that the IAF had secretly taken delivery of eight crated Avia S.92 jets. The S.92 was the Messerschmitt Me 262A-1A built in Czechoslovakia following the World War. The Czechs' Russian masters might have approved such a sale in the first half of 1950, and Israel may have felt an urgent need to answer the threat posed by the new Egyptian Meteors, which arrived in October 1949, to buy this, the only jet available to them. However, the Me 262 was hopelessly antiquated in 1950 and the late Second World War technology was of very limited service life. If the story is true, it is odd that the Israelis would not have admitted to operating the Me 262, no matter how briefly and unsuccessfully, in the time since 1950."
Can anyone add to this fascinating story?
Regards,
Jan