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By: - 24th February 2005 at 13:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
boeing's 737 AEW (based on the NG-700) platform is doing quite well and is undergoing testing with boeing..The RAAF has ordered 4 such aircraft (PROJECT WEDGETAIL) with 2 being ordered by TURKEY. The 737AEW also looks like the strongest platform going into the South Korean Air force AEW platform (which has seen about a year's delay and reconstruction of the program). It looks like the "Platform"" to go for if you are OK with buying american. It envolves a Northrop Grumman MESA radar and avionics..
here is a nice article regarding the market and the main players as well as the future market forcast.
http://www.aiaa.org/aerospace/Article.cfm?issuetocid=86&ArchiveIssueID=13
Boeing Australia's wedgertail page
http://www.boeing.com.au/DIVNetworkEnabledSystems/NESaewc.htm
By: - 25th February 2005 at 20:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Prospective clients for the Embraer C3I aircraft
I always felt the 737 AWACS is much larger actually in league with tha E-3s... Similar capabilities in a cheaper and up-to-date currently in production airframe...
Embraer's great opportunity with the ACS in the US should open a number of doors around the world. I heard Malasia should be the next country to purchase the EMB-145s, for maritime patrol and AWACS. Indonesia could also be a future client. In Europe there's a number of small airforces that could be well served by our maritime patrol aircraft despite their relative short range... Current Chinese manufacture of ERJ-145 regional jets opens a number of interesting but politicaly complex future scenarios...
Comments?
Regards
Hammer
By: - 26th February 2005 at 02:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
many AF will find the 737AEW the perfect platform for their use as it provides the benefit of the highest selling commercial aircraft in the world and the advantage of top technology in the radar and the avionics as well as the flexibilty with the software (with Bae and other such platforms) as for as maritime ops are concerned the UAV's such as global hawk and the predator will find increased importance in the near to long term future and we cannot rule out the MMA which is under development and is also based on the 737 platform...the USN will open doors to it possibliy at paris 05.
By: - 26th February 2005 at 17:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
specs of the Australian MESA please ......and more pictures too....
this wud have been a better option than the Phalcon for the IAF, as its also cheaper.
By: - 26th February 2005 at 18:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The boeing 737 AEW is fitted with a Northrop Grumman ESSD (formerly Westinghouse) Multi-role Electronically Scanned Array (MESA) radar. This Northrop Grumman's L-band Multi-Role Electronically Scanned Array (MESA) radar is mounted in a dorsal arrangement atop the B737 rear fuselage. This is combined with a Boeing designed Open Systems Architecture (OSA) mission system with six common console stations for the mission crew. The OSA mission system is Standards based and uses 80% Commercial Off The Shelf (COTS) software.A Multi-role Electronically Scanned Array (MESA) radar is the critical sensor aboard the 737 AEW&C. The MESA radar is the latest generation airborne surveillance radar system for mid-cost AEW&C. The electronically scanned array features three apertures sharing "L" band frequency transmit and receive modules to attain 360 degrees of coverage. The "L" band frequency is an optimum blend of range, detection capability, size and weight. The steerable beam, L-band electronically scanned array is designed to provide optimal performance in range, tracking, accuracy and growth. The radar is able to track air and sea targets simultaneously and can help the operator maintain control of high-performance aircraft while continuously scanning the operational area. The 'top hat' provides a practical solution for fore and aft coverage while maintaining the low drag profile of the dorsal array system. This allows the system to be installed on the mid-size 737-700 platform without significant impact on aircraft performance.
Another innovation is the integrated Identification Friend or Foe (IFF), sharing the primary radar arrays to further reduce weight, improve reliability and simplify target correlation. In addition, the 737 AEW&C has an advanced open system architecture (OSA) with a standards-based design for cost-effective commonality and maximum flexibility. The radar provides significant operational capability by allowing the system to be dynamically tailored to match mission requirements. If the operator needs a long-range view of a specific sector, system modes may be selected to search that sector at more than double the nominal uniform surveillance range. Additionally, variable track update rates and dedicated tracking assist the operator in maintaining control of high–performance aircraft while continuously scanning the operational area.
The MESA antenna is designed to provide optimal performance in range, tracking and accuracy. The radar is able to track airborne and maritime targets simultaneously and can help the mission crew direct the control of high-performance fighter aircraft as it continuously scans the operational area.
Using the latest sensor technology, Northrop Grumman’s 360-degree, steerable-beam MESA radar is able to track air and sea targets simultaneously and can help the operator track high-performance aircraft while continuously scanning the operational area. More than 1,300 hours of wind tunnel testing have demonstrated the compatibility of the aircraft and the radar.
this might be helpfull
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27853&highlight=south+korea+program
that is about all the information that is available about the MESA radar..range most often quoted is around 200nm however NG has not admitted or denied this..A bit of interesting fact is that the SK AF throught their trials found the MESA to be better then the competing proposed IAI radar (comparitivly according to their study/research/testing benchmarks)
Maj. Gen. Won Jang-hwan, the Defense Ministry's chief procurement office, said a meeting next week would decide the future of the project. He said the Air Force had conducted three-month tests on the two companies' aircrafts since last September. During the tests, it discovered that the IAI ELTA aircraft fell short of requirements. The IAI ELTA AEW&C’s radar detection range is the requisite 200 nautical miles (about 370 km), but only if the aircraft's radar makes repeated searches of the area.
By: - 26th February 2005 at 18:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Looking at the Wedgetail's internal arrangement and how cramped it is, I really wonder which capabilities an ERJ-145AEW or Saab 2000AEW leaves out. Or do they simply transmit raw data to ground stations and have them analysed there?
Btw, Wedgetail, what a strange story that the antenna was too low and now they have to rebuild it about 30in or so higher. Very strange.
By: - 26th February 2005 at 19:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Btw, Wedgetail, what a strange story that the antenna was too low and now they have to rebuild it about 30in or so higher. Very strange.
yup that was quite unusual...kept it from flying for about 1-2 months however i think it is back flying now..
By: - 27th February 2005 at 00:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm sure the 737 AWACS ís a formidable aircraft but how many air forces may be able to afford it?
The EMB-145/Erieye combination has the capability of controlling airspace by itself. I was the SAAB 340 Argus in Sweden that couldn't do it because it lacked internal space to house the radar operator stations.
Another doubt: why didn't Boeing pack all those eletronics cabinets in the under floor compartment? Air conditioning?
Regards
Hammer
By: - 27th February 2005 at 05:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm sure the 737 AWACS ís a formidable aircraft but how many air forces may be able to afford it?
As of now all the air-forces that have shown interest in it havent had a problem in afording it..procurment costs are one things but there is a big advantage in having a platform based on the 737 NG which is so abundant and the cheapest in its class to run.
Do u have the cost of the ERJ-145 Awacs in 2000.2002 or 2004 dollars over a procurment deal?
By: - 27th February 2005 at 07:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
specs of the Australian MESA please ......and more pictures too....this wud have been a better option than the Phalcon for the IAF, as its also cheaper.
Two different classes. IAF wanted AWACS and not AEW in case of Phalcons, or else they could have gone for A-50's. That was a cheaper option.
India has signed an agreement with Brazilian aircraft maker Embraer to buy three EMB 145 aircraft for its indigenous airborne early warning and control system (AEW&C) programme.
The Brazilian firm said in a statement here that the MoU was signed between Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Embraer for the three aircraft.
Indian government analysts and Embraer engineers are collecting necessary technical data on the aircraft for the study. At the request of the Indian government, an Embraer team recently visited DRDO and held in-depth discussions to support DRDO personnel in their tasks, it said.
"The analysis is expected to result in an initial contract for three EMB 145 AEW&C aircraft and technical support during the development effort," Embraer said.
"Besides the upcoming contract to supply of EMB 145 ISR platform, we could be involved in some engineering work," Embraer Executive Vice President for Defence market, Romualdo Barros said.
Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS), the Bangalore-based DRDO unit, has revived the airborne early warning (AEW) system programme that it had scrapped following a crash of a rotodome radar-fitted Avro aircraft near Arakkonam in Chennai in 1999.
CABS will acquire three Brazilian Embraer aircraft in which it will integrate phased array radars in the current Rs 1,800-crore programme, which the cabinet committee of security sanctioned last year.
Embraer last year signed a deal to sell five Legacy aircraft for VIP transport to the government, officials said.
By: - 27th February 2005 at 19:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Brute,
I don want to argue abt that now, but there are many more to that issue, but is the Boeings MESA an AEW ???
If at all, AWACS, has to be utilised to the fullest, then IL-76 as a carrier is not that good, I'd have loved it to be based on an IL-96-400 (10,000+ Km) or A-340-500(15,000+ Km), so that endurance doesn't become an issue.
BTW, u must have read the above quote abt the Korean's preference for the MESA over the ELTAS (hopefully PHALCON?)
Maj. Gen. Won Jang-hwan, the Defense Ministry's chief procurement office, said a meeting next week would decide the future of the project. He said the Air Force had conducted three-month tests on the two companies' aircrafts since last September. During the tests, it discovered that the IAI ELTA aircraft fell short of requirements. The IAI ELTA AEW&C’s radar detection range is the requisite 200 nautical miles (about 370 km), but only if the aircraft's radar makes repeated searches of the area.
Its also good news that CABS has restarted the project but the halting of the whole project was coz of the vested intrests and I'd put my theory abt the same in some earlier threads.
By: - 27th February 2005 at 19:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
can some one tell me how the antenna is arranged inside the 'T' section??.... mean the Boeings MESA
I'm expecting 2 on the sides, and on top howz it arranged?? .... another 2 back to back for front and rear coverage??.... also how much is the dimension of the entenna inside. Does it also have additional antenna in the nose??
By: - 28th February 2005 at 05:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Brute,I don want to argue abt that now, but there are many more to that issue, but is the Boeings MESA an AEW ???
If at all, AWACS, has to be utilised to the fullest, then IL-76 as a carrier is not that good, I'd have loved it to be based on an IL-96-400 (10,000+ Km) or A-340-500(15,000+ Km), so that endurance doesn't become an issue.
BTW, u must have read the above quote abt the Korean's preference for the MESA over the ELTAS (hopefully PHALCON?)
Its also good news that CABS has restarted the project but the halting of the whole project was coz of the vested intrests and I'd put my theory abt the same in some earlier threads.
IL-76 is a known platform and has commanalities with with what Aviation Research Centers ELINT squadron. Phalcon was the best system avaliable to us. Perhaps boeing could have been used, may be the Russian political pressure.
Its good to have a friendly alternative like ERJ. I guess its best suited for ops that are in the mid segment. Something to go between an ELINT and a Full fledged AWACS.
By: - 28th February 2005 at 19:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
IL-76 is a known platform and has commanalities with with what Aviation Research Centers ELINT squadron. Phalcon was the best system avaliable to us. Perhaps boeing could have been used, may be the Russian political pressure.IL-76 is aknow platform, but if we are for a 24x7 coverage of the entire -hot - airspace, its the least suitable unless we have more than enough air-frames.Its good to have a friendly alternative like ERJ. I guess its best suited for ops that are in the mid segment. Something to go between an ELINT and a Full fledged AWACS.
And probably u did not get as to y i did not mention abt the Boeing, its just coz, of the fact that Chinese get to ses from their presedential a/c. And thats the least that I'd like to have in a strategic asset like AWACS. And neither wud Boeing have given the necessary 'items' to the Russian for a Bowing based Russian AWACS for India.
Now since the Isreali's have gained a lot after crying abt Russia not cooperating with the IL-76, expect a future Isreali UPGRADE PACKAGE for the Il-76 for all those Ilyushins operating around the world. And thats a very good market to lay ones hands on. Also expect India to get the first proposal for the same in the future. I'd be very much happy to see that not happening and getting me proved wrong.
By: - 1st March 2005 at 01:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
i guess BUYING AMERICAN was just too risky for the IAF (and they can speak from experience)..Was the 737 even an option at that point in time (i believe the first offer for such a platform (turkey?)was made in 1999?)
By: - 1st March 2005 at 17:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
BIT,
the proposal came in 99, but the deal wasn't signed untill 2003 and that too with an advance payment of $350+million, and the first one is to come in only after 2007.
BTW, I am sure, by 2003, the MESA was also ready and some delivery was also carried out. But lets not bring down the thread to this issue.
Can u givve the link to article on the Korean affair for the MESA, some quotes from which u posted??
And guys info on the Swiss, Brazalian , and the RN's Helo based AEW.
By: - 2nd March 2005 at 13:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
the quotes i took were from this very forum under the topic of the EX program i'll look it up and post the exact thread.
By: - 2nd March 2005 at 13:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Posts: 742
By: Hammer - 23rd February 2005 at 22:23
Apparently Embraer is doing pretty well with its ERJ-145 Awacs, MPA, and C3I derivatives, I wonder who are its main competitors today?
Why hasn't Bombardier entered this segment? This would sound reasonable...
Gulfstream is apparently a player... although of a somewhat discrete nature
Can Boeing compete in ths segmente with the 737 NG derivatives? Or is it too big and expensive? What about Airbus?