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By: - 16th April 2002 at 16:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Aircraft Carrier Conversion?
When the Atlantic Conveyor was sunk by an Argentinian Exocet during the Falklands conflict, didn't it take a deck full of Harrier GR1s to the bottom with it? It still sounds like a reasonable method for transporting aircraft in a low threat environment though.
By: - 16th April 2002 at 16:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Aircraft Carrier Conversion?
we have one !!!
its the argus and was used in the falklands then brought by RN.
check this out http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/uk_helo.htm#arg
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Argus aviation support ship
Displacement: 28,480 tons full load
Dimensions: 536.8 x 100.5 x 27 feet/163.6 x 30.6 x 8.2 meters
Extreme Dimensions: 567.6 x 100.5 x 27 feet/172.8 x 30.6 x 8.2 meters
Propulsion: Diesel-electric, 2 Lindholmen-Pielstick 18PC2.5 V400 diesels, 2 electric motors, 2 shafts, 23,400 hp, 19 knots
Crew: 79 civilian, 28 military, 137 training, 750 troops in emergency (994 total)
Armor: none
Armament: 2 single 30 mm AA, 2 single 20 mm AA
Aircraft: up to 18 VSTOL and helicopters
Concept/Program: A RO/RO & container ship converted to replace Engadine in the helicopter training support role. Also supports Harrier training, and the ship's large size allows her to act as a transport, emergency "spare deck" or auxiliary carrier, and general-purpose auxiliary. A second conversion was considered but cancelled in 1984. This ship had operated as an emergency aircraft transport during the Falklands crisis, prior to being taken over for this role.
Design/Conversion: Large superstructure forward with a long clear deck aft. Small superstructure on the starboard side, aft, simulates destroyer/frigate superstructure for training purposes. The ship has suffered hull cracking problems and is considered to be unsuccessful.
Operational: Operates primarily as a training ship, both for landing training and by carrying ASW helicopters out to deep-sea training areas. In wartime can act as an aircraft ferry and/or an auxiliary carrier and/or as an assualt ship; has also operated as a hospital ship. The ship's transport and "spare deck" roles are no longer significant due to the availability of purpose-built transports (RO/ROs) and Ocean as a "spare deck".
Departure from Service/Disposal: The project that became HMS Ocean was originally meant as a replacement for this ship. Immediate replacement now seems unlikely, since the new ship evolved into an amphibious assault ship. The future of Argus is uncertain, but a replacement will probably be sought in the near future, as this ship is excessively large and expensive to serve purely as a training ship.
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Argus
A135
Photos: [Prior to conversion - M/V Contender Bezant], [Argus as completed].
Laid down ????, launched 1981, completed as cargo ship 1981. Chartered for Falklands service 5/82; returned postwar. Purchased by RN 2 March 1984, converted at Harland & Wolff 4/1984 to 3 March 1988. Commissioned 1 June 1988 but immediately went into post-trial refit 17 July 1989 to 3 Oct 1989, fully in service 10/1989.
Deployed to Persian Gulf early 1990's as hospital ship and as an aircraft transport.
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we also have a chopper ship
Reliant experimental helicopter support ship
Displacememt: 27,876 tons full load
Dimensions: 670 x 101 x 26 feet/204 x 30.8 x 7.9 meters
Propulsion: Diesel, 1 shaft, 29,000 bhp, 22 knots
Crew: 60 civilian + 141 naval
Armor: none
Armament: 4 40 mm AA
Aircraft: 5 helicopters
Concept/Program: A container ship initially chartered as an emergency helicopter support ship for Falklands duties. Later converted with US/UK "Arapaho" project modular helicopter support equipment to test the capabilities of the Arapaho project. This was intended as a pre-manufactured, standardized, modular helicopter support suite to enable merchant ships to serve as helicopter ships in wartime. The project was not found to be a particular success.
Design/Conversion: Main deck forward of the bridge converted to helicopter landing area, with hangar/maintenance facilties forward.
Departure from Service/Disposal: Following the experiment the ship was sold back into merchant service.
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Reliant
ex merchant Astronomer
A131
Photos: [Astronomer in Falklands configuration], [Reliant as converted].
Built by Gdansk Shipyard, completed 1977. Taken up from trade for Falklands service 5/1982, converted to helicopter support ship, but arrived off the Falklands too late for war service. Chartered for full conversion 12/1982, converted at Cammell Laird, completed 7/1983.
Stripped of helicopter equipment 7/1986 and purchased by RN to avoid cost of full reconversion to original condition. Sold into merchant service by 10/1986.
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rabie :9
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By: - 16th April 2002 at 22:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Aircraft Carrier Conversion?
Hi Scooter
The UK MoD have already considered this option as a replacement for the current Invincible Class Carriers. It seems it was ruuled out as the return of investment (in Operational ability) would be very little. Also civilian ship building techniques fall short of Military requirements. Therefore they concluded that it would be better for them to build from the ground up.
However, if (god forbid) any of the UK carriers were lost through attrition. then it would be quite feasable to utilise a long hulled merchantman (Such as container ship or tanker) and tack a ski ramp and flight deck to the Bow. thats the nice thing about STOVL isn't it?
It increases your options.
By: - 16th April 2002 at 23:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Aircraft Carrier Conversion?
I remember reading somewhere that the Indian's did this during their last punchup with the pakistanis in 1999. The Virkant (?) ex-Hermes anyway, was in for a refit, so they used their harriers on bulk-carrier/container merchant ships in the Arabian sea.
By: - 17th April 2002 at 07:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Aircraft Carrier Conversion?
The idea is certainly interesting, but look at the background of that idea: it was a Cold War idea. Back then the idea was that large merchant convoys would be sent to Europe during a WWIII. A big threat to these convoys came from Soviet submarines. A merchant converted to ARAPAHO standard would accompany its fellow merchants. This ship would be mainly loaded with ASW helos for protection against those subs. Harrier capability was strictly secondary. The vulnerability ELP mentioned wasn't really much of an issue, as the other merchants in the convoys were just as vulnerable (or more) and those were sent all the same. This was strictly an emergency measure for a possible high intensity conflict (WWIII). I think it would have proven very useful in such a conflict.
A conflict of 1980s WWIII intensity is out of the question nowadays, and with the demise of that threat also the need for converted merchants disappeared. Nowadays we don't need massive numbers of military materiel, so quality becomes even more important than quantity. That's when the drawbacks of ARAPAHOs come to light:
1. the vulnerability mentioned by Elp would be unacceptable today.
2. Such ships are much too slow to be used for anything, except convoy excort missions.
3. In the long term it's not a very good solution, because hull problems can occur.
So in short: excellent as emergency measures, but not good for the long term. Better spend some more money and go for a real light STOVL carrier.
Best regards,
Ference.
By: - 17th April 2002 at 07:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Aircraft Carrier Conversion?
I wouldnt go for it. First of all although the basic hull may come cheap, setting it up to work as a carrier will not be so. Remember you have to build in Hangers, stores, magazines, crew compartments, provisions for defensive measures, plus a control tower etc etc. and like elp said, it could burn like a tourch if hit. Further you will be restricted to Jump jets only. Even a jump jet requires a ski jump as taking off vertically would mean sacrificing payload and fuel. Its an ok idea if you want a helicopter carrier.
And by the way in the Falklands the Atlantic Conveyor did not go down with Harrier Gr-1's there were two Chinooks on board that were lost. Luckily the Harriers had left the ship before the attack.
By: - 17th April 2002 at 16:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Aircraft Carrier Conversion?
It is an idea that has been very seriously considered in the past. A conversion kit called Arapaho was produced to achieve just this, and IIRC it was used to produce RFA Reliant, which filled the role of aviation training ship in the RN (and was, rather sadly, the largest ship in the fleet in terms of displacement!) whilst the MV Contender Bezant was being converted into RFA Argus.
The Atlantic Conveyor didn't really count as she was essentially just an aircraft ferry, and although she was capable of operating helos and Harriers off her deck she was not equipped to support combat operations.
By: - 18th April 2002 at 08:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Arapaho
Can anyone tell me more about this Arapaho kit? What equipment did it consist of for example?
Cheers,
Chris.
By: - 18th April 2002 at 16:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Arapaho
Essentially it was a kit (if that's the right word!) for converting container ships into ships capable of operating helicopters and VSTOL aircraft. IIRC it involved building a ski jump over the bow and using standard size shipping containers to provide workshops, air crew accommodation, weapon stores etc. The idea was basically to allow NATO navies to rapidly convert these ships in times of tension/war so as provide extra platforms for convoy escort duty, pretty much like the MACs and escort carriers of WWII.
By: Anonymous (not verified) - 16th April 2002 at 16:23
During World War Two many civilian ships were converted to Aircraft Carriers. Does anyone think this could be a practical and/or economical way to build a Aircraft Carrier? The market is full of good used merchants many of which could be purchased for pennies! The U.K. had a plan many years a go to convert container ships to Carriers with Harrier in times of conflict and/or war. Just so there are no misunderstanding. I am talking about a Small to Medium VTOL Carrier. No arrest gear and/or catapults.