By: SOC
- 1st September 2004 at 01:07Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
imagine yourself flying formation with that herc... would you be able to clearly see those markings???
look at the pic again, that's not the standard usaf marking
Actually that is the standard USAF low visibility national insignia.
By: SOC
- 1st September 2004 at 01:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A MiG-29 shooting down an unarmed civilian Cessna is barbaric. Any county that does it and brags about it should be ashamed. The Cessna was on a mission to embarass Castro....no one in Cuba was in danger. I'm not a huge fan of the anti-Castro Cubans, but this case is a no brainer.
It is a no-brainer. They had no business trying to act in that manner, and they must have known this was a potential risk they might have to deal with one day.
Freedom of speech shouldn't carry a death penalty. To do so puts a country in the same league at Nazi Germany or Stalin's USSR.
Please, they were trying to incite anti-Castro feelings and distribute propaganda against the Castro government. The minute they purposely violated Cuban airspace with the intent of acting against the government they graduated to enemy status. This has nothing to do with free speech, which is nonexistant in Cuba to begin with.
Your statement implies just about any off-course plane...airliner, private or military, should be destroyed. That should be totally unacceptable to anyone with a shred of decency.
They weren't merely off course, they were purposely violating Cuban airspace for the express purpose of inciting anti-government feelings. Yes, they should have been blown right out of the sky. I don't necessarily agree with Castro's policies or the communist system of government, but in this case I find no fault with Cuba's actions.
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By: Flogger
- 1st September 2004 at 01:59Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You obviously haven't read what I said...
A MiG-29 shooting down an unarmed civilian Cessna is barbaric. Any county that does it and brags about it should be ashamed. The Cessna was on a mission to embarass Castro....no one in Cuba was in danger. I'm not a huge fan of the anti-Castro Cubans, but this case is a no brainer. Freedom of speech shouldn't carry a death penalty.
To do so puts a country in the same league at Nazi Germany or Stalin's USSR.
Your statement implies just about any off-course plane...airliner, private or military, should be destroyed.
That should be totally unacceptable to anyone with a shred of decency.
I do not support Castro`s dictatorship and i would like to see democracy in Cuba, but i have Cuban friends (not cuban american), many consider that what happens in Cuba is surreal but few say Castro is an evil person as portraited, they say he is a Don Quixote fighting the windmills, A MiG-29 Shooting down a Cessna, well how are the Cubans going to know if the Cessna is not armed with Biological weapons and what right have the Brothers to do politics in Cuba? in the 9-11 era i am sure the US will do the same so why you complaing if the Cubans did that?
By: Sens
- 1st September 2004 at 02:30Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have some sympathy for Cuban people too. As SOC posted before, to exspect the AF will obey the international rules was foolish. They payed the highest price for taking such risc.
Not to exspect some sort of resistance, when there is no way to vote for another government, is foolish too.
"well how are the Cubans going to know if the Cessna is not armed with Biological weapons and what right have the Brothers to do politics in Cuba?"
Maybe you did not red the postings before. The Cubans set a trap and trained for this before. Biological weapons, what dumb arguement, when it goes about political opposition and many relatives still there.
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Posts: 1,317
By: Flogger
- 1st September 2004 at 03:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have some sympathy for Cuban people too. As SOC posted before, to exspect the AF will obey the international rules was foolish. They payed the highest price for taking such risc.
Not to exspect some sort of resistance, when there is no way to vote for another government, is foolish too.
"well how are the Cubans going to know if the Cessna is not armed with Biological weapons and what right have the Brothers to do politics in Cuba?"
Maybe you did not red the postings before. The Cubans set a trap and trained for this before. Biological weapons, what dumb arguement, when it goes about political opposition and many relatives still there.
Acording to a Cuban friend of mine the US practised state terrorism against Cuba and he said that in many ocassions they indeed did it, so the Cubans they did not know if these were just plain panflets or any of the US attacks so they decided to shot down the cessna with this i do not mean the Brothers were attacking with biological weapons or the cubans were thinking they were thwarting a bioterrist attack by part of the Brothers but for a paranoid Castro regime that has been harassed by the US and even target of US assesination attemps, state terrorism is a threat.
By: fabe
- 1st September 2004 at 08:48Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The type size was to show my amazement at the callousness shown by your arguments. I don't care if it's Siudan or Isreal, shooting down a harmless, fleeing private plane is wrong.
no you just don't get it. it's not important which state this does. but shooting down an unarmed plane is just a drop into the ocean compared to crimes comitted by aircraft in other parts in the world.
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By: Anonymous
- 1st September 2004 at 08:53Permalink- Edited 16th October 2019 at 10:06
Yep rich people are usually people who worked hard AND have talent .
Or look pretty and are lucky? Anthropologic tests I have seen suggest looks play a much more important role in almost everything than talent or intelligence. Even small children will rate a pretty teacher as being "better" than a frumpy teacher even if they do and say the same things.
You should be entitled to what you work for. If you put forth mroe effort, you'll end up with more. That's not a bad thing in my opinion.
The little flaw regarding those points is that it doesn't matter how hard or how long you work at a menial job like street sweeper or toilet cleaner you are never going to make millions... or even enough to survive on a one income family. You can say that managers for companies work hard and without them those companies might not operate as well, but how well would society operate knee deep in our own filth.
For every successful entrepreneur there are hundreds or thousands who fail. Often the difference is luck more than anything else. Who pays for those who fail? ...everyone does... society does. Either through unemployment payments, or through the increase in crime...
A good example of a type of socialism vs capitalism would be here in New Zealand... we used to have a government controlled power network. Bloated and reasonably inefficient with too many employees. But it did its job. Up in Auckland where more than 2/3rds of NZs population lives they have three main cables taking power into the city... one was being fixed, and the other two failed and Auckland went a few weeks without power. Auckland has over 1.5 million people living in it and its power infrastructure was fully privatised. Christchurch didn't have privatised power infrastructure and for a city of about 300,000 it has 6 similar cables providing power. Probably quite inefficient really, but they haven't had any major fault related blackouts. Worth a few extra cents a year? I think so.
But even doing that , comparing both I cant see how comunism would worlk perfectly.
Even rich democracies like the US have homeless and hungry people... why would you expect more from communism than from democracy?
Look at the pictures of Stalin in Russia. He was a killer, but he offered stability... everyone had a job, everyone got a pension... sure the shops were often empty or poorly stocked but it was the same for everyone (outside the elite of course).
True . But I think the catholic church should have updated their thoughs .
The Catholic Church was one of the most staunch opponents of Democracy.
Their current "Just say no" policy for safe sex says it all...
I am Cuban, and what I like is the freedom for my country, the opportunity for my country to be able to express their ideas, to have free elections, with more than one political party, because otherwise, I compare that to a horse race with only one horse.
Yes, a one horse race is not very exciting, but as a government there is stability in no change every 3-5 years. Some idiot gets into power and sells off everything the state controls to make the books look better (after they spend big on their mates) and then all of a sudden everyone else owns bits of your country and no Cubans can afford to buy land. Remember why the revolution took place in the first place... Cuba was basically owned... the US Mafia owned casinos, drinking establishments, and beaches, while other foreigners owned the sugar fields that poor cubans worked for very low pay.
Doesn't sound like paradise to me.
According to the UN those “Brothers to the Rescue planes” were shoot down over international air space. If you have proved otherwise please let me know. By the way, don’t send me any Cuban info, because the only thing they were able to provide the investigating team, were hand drawn radar tracks, I don’t have to tell you where those “Brother to the Rescue plane” where according to those maps.
They had violated Cuban airspace... who cares where they were shot down?
They were warned. If you had to catch someone in the act of committing a crime before you could do anything and if they had already committed it it was too late to do anything what sort of justice would you have?
You kill someone for dropping LEAFLETS!!!!
What country are you from???
They are part of a "terrorist organistation" that has spent the better part of the last 30 odd years trying to undermine the government of a country. If you succeed at that it is called a revolution, but until you do that is treason and I think there is a standard punnishment for that most places.
Your statement implies just about any off-course plane...airliner, private or military, should be destroyed.
Rubbish. This was a repeat offender that knew the consequences of their actions. Where the plane hit the water is irrelevant they are entitled to defend their own airspace.
If that means lethal force then so be it.
They were clearly warned. Even the US didn't protest over these shootdowns.
I doubt any civilized person would agree with you that the Cessna Pilots and passengers had it coming to them.
Yet you still debate the point with us uncivilised heathens?
That should be totally unacceptable to anyone with a shred of decency.
And indecent uncivilised heathens at that!!!
Freedom of speech shouldn't carry a death penalty.
Go to an American political rally that includes lots of high up officials and stand up and shout clearly that you want to kill the president or that you have a bomb, or that the place is on fire. Even freedom of speech has its limitations... and they even got a warning... which I think is more than what you'll get if you are stupid enough to follow my suggestions.
By: Mpacha
- 1st September 2004 at 09:10Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sens you can down play the Piercy F1 incident as much as you like, but the fact is, it was a successful attack. It put a Mirage out of action for a long period of time. (At a time when it was very much needed.) It cost the SAAF a highly trained pilot. It was a turning point in the war, the SAAF had lost air superiority. This attack was received with surprise and shock, forcing the SAAF to suddenly change the rules of engagement. The effect was far greater than just one F1, so in my opinion, this was a kill.
By: bring_it_on
- 1st September 2004 at 09:37Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
i think the bottom line is that if someone continues to violate the international territorial laws the forces of the territory being violated have the right to do whatever they feel like to enforce the territorial law..and if some morons continue to violate these laws then something has to be done..it really doesnt matter what is the nature of the violation and i would think that spredding propoganda would be considered a major effort to try to bring unrest in the govt..i hate castro but the cubans had the full right to shoot that plane down from what i have heard in this thread
By: Sens
- 1st September 2004 at 11:51Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Mpacha, when it comes to the tactical side you are right. It was the first head-on attack from an Angolian fighter, which showed some success. A nasty surprise for the SAF, which felt much superior till then. In the consequense this emergency landing was much more worthwhile than a true kill. The hurted pilot could describe the events before the accident. You can assume that many fighters returned from a mission with a damaged plane and the crew wounded. Some of the planes were w/o and others are not. Technical rated those are no kills, just damaged. Practical the result were the same nearly for the time given as you stated. No question about that.
By: Sens
- 1st September 2004 at 12:23Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I like the american view! When it came to Iraq, they thougt otherwise.
All the US-planes shot down outside national borders were operated by fools?
The Cuban government in force has the right to defend its national airspace, no question about that. But it is limited by international law to that. When Cuba declares its national airspace as a war-zone, they can shoot down everything flying around.
Doing not so, it is an ordinary air-policing mission and this has to stick to international rules. The intrusion of the Cessna before was a violation of Cuban law, no question about that. Not respecting internatinal laws is a crime too.
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By: John Boyle
- 1st September 2004 at 17:21Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I like the american view! When it came to Iraq, they thougt otherwise.
All the US-planes shot down outside national borders were operated by fools?
The Cuban government in force has the right to defend its national airspace, no question about that. But it is limited by international law to that. When Cuba declares its national airspace as a war-zone, they can shoot down everything flying around.
Doing not so, it is an ordinary air-policing mission and this has to stick to international rules. The intrusion of the Cessna before was a violation of Cuban law, no question about that. Not respecting internatinal laws is a crime too.
Remember, the Cessnas were shot down over INTERNATIONAL waters..that doesn't give the Cubans much a a legal leg to stand on...
And I don't recall the Americans shooting down any unarmed LIGHT non-military planes..
By: Sens
- 1st September 2004 at 17:45Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
"Remember, the Cessnas were shot down over INTERNATIONAL waters..that doesn't give the Cubans much a a legal leg to stand on..."
That is my opinion too.
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By: Srbin
- 1st September 2004 at 18:39Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well if you had Al-Qaeda or ANYONE else dropping propaganda leaflets over Washington to organize a revolution against GWB, I'd bet they'd have USAF, USMC and USN all over their ass.
Now these Cessnas, were they in Cuban space or NOT?
By: Sens
- 1st September 2004 at 20:11Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not ashamed about dumb arguements? You can hire a Cessna there and drop your leaflets. Maybe you will be questioned about that by the FBI afterwards.
Try the same in Cuba.
I can do that every time in Germany. Flying over Berlin and dropping leaflets there,
demanding the killing of Chancellor Schöder. The police will have problems to identify me at first. Doing that several times they will catch me on the ground and I have to pay some money in doing so. Next time they will put me for some days into prison. But
why should I, I can vote him away.
Journalists showed the public, how easy it is to hire a plane and drop a bomb right over the Chancellors building. After that all planes have to be locked by key, when parked and pilots have to ask their passengers, if they are carrying some explosives!
Private planes can still fly over Berlin.
During shot-down, definetly not. Over international waters you have no right to shoot down something or you become criminal yourself.
More interesting is, why the Cuban fighters failed to catch the Cessna in time. When Rust landed his Cessna on the Red Square in Moscov, several high-ranking officers lost their job.
Is there a MiG-23 with a SAAF F-1 kill marking around? At least a pic in a Cuban war museum?
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Posts: 137
By: F5M
- 2nd September 2004 at 03:54Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Remember, the Cessnas were shot down over INTERNATIONAL waters..that doesn't give the Cubans much a a legal leg to stand on...
And I don't recall the Americans shooting down any unarmed LIGHT non-military planes..
By: luisdo
- 2nd September 2004 at 16:43Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have a few concerns with what many people have been writing about the Brothers to the Rescue shoot down.
First I have some charts from the US Air Force of the events of that day. By the way the Cuban fighter planes are in Blue so that you can follow the events. Only one of the Brothers to the Rescue planes went over the 12-mile Cuban Air space limit by two miles, the rest of them did not cross that line.
As far as a terrorist organization, where is the proof, I only know about a incident earlier that year, where one of their plane flew over Havana, dropping leaflets with the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights, o I forgot that's a crime in Cuba.
By: luisdo
- 18th September 2004 at 22:31Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Cuban Air force in the early 1990s
REVOLUTIONARY AIR AND ANTI-AIRCRAFT DEFENSE FORCE in 1990
Zona Aerea Oeste
2a Brigada de la Guardia “Playa Giron”
Comando de Defensa Aerea-Air Defense Command
[LEFT]Unit # Aircraft Type Role Air Base UM 1779 Regimiento de Caza
UM Escuadron de Caza 4 MiG-29A, 2 MiG-29UB Air Defense San Antonio de los Baños
UM Escuadron de Caza 12 MiG-23ML, 4 MiG-23UB Air Defense San Antonio de los Baños
UM 4768 Escuadron de Intercepcion 12 MiG-21Bis ,2 MiG-21UM AD/Attack San Antonio de los Baños Comando de Transporte-Logistic Support Command
UM 3688 Regimiento de Transporte
UM Escuadrón de Transporte 9 An-26 Transport Playa Baracoa
UM Escuadrón de Transporte 9 An-26 Transport Playa Baracoa
UM Escuadrón de Transporte 8 An-2 Transport Playa Baracoa
UM 3405 Regimiento Ejecutivo 3 Yak-40, 3 An-24, 2 An-2, Transport Playa Baracoa Marina de Guerra Revolucionaria:
UM Escuadrón de Helicópteros de Guerra Anti-Submarina 4 Mi-14PL Anti-Submarine Mariel Escuela Militar para Pilotos Aereos (EMPA)- Air Training Command
Unit # Aircraft Type Role Air Base UM 1650 Escuela de Aviacion Militar Comandante Che Guevara
UM Escuadrón de Enseñansa Básica 4 An-2 Primary Training San Julian/ Mantua
UM Escuadrón de Enseñansa de Vuelo Avanzada 12 MiG-21UM Combat Training San Julian
UM 7000? Escuadrón de Enseñansa de Preparacion Combativa 12 MiG-21PFMA Combat Training San Julian
UM Escuadrón de Enseñansa de Preparacion Combativa 12 MiG-21MF Combat Training San Julian UM 1660
UM Escuadrón de Enseñansa Básica 12 L-39C Primary Training La Coloma
UM Escuadrón de Enseñansa Básica 12 L-39C Primary Training La Coloma
Other Important Airports that may be use from time to time:
[/LEFT]
[LEFT]Zona Aerea Central
1a Brigada de la Guardia “Batalla de Santa Clara”
Comando de Defensa Aerea-Air Defense Command
Unit # Aircraft Type Role Air Base UM 1890 Regimiento de Intercepcion
UM Escuadrón de Intercepcion 12 MiG-21Bis, 2 MiG-21UM AD/Attack Santa Clara
UM Escuadrón de Intercepcion 12 MiG-21Bis, 2 MiG-21UM AD/Attack Santa Clara
Comando Aereo Tactico-Tactical Air Command
UM 2661 Escuadrón de Caza-Bombardeo 12 MiG-23BN, 2MiG-23UB Attack Santa Clara
UM Escuadrón de Caza-Bombardeo 12 MiG-23BN, 2MiG-23UB Attack Santa Clara
UM 3684 Regimiento de Helicópteros
UM Escuadrón de Helicópteros de Propósitos Generales 9 Mi-8 Transport Cienfuegos
UM Escuadrón de Helicópteros de Propósitos Generales 9 Mi-8 Transport Cienfuegos
UM Escuadrón de Helicópteros-Combate 12 Mi-24D Attack Cienfuegos
Other Important Airports that may be use from time to time:[/LEFT]
Zona Aerea Oriente
3ª Brigada de la Guardia “Cuartel Moncada”
Unit # Aircraft Type Role Air Base UM Regimiento de Helicópteros
UM Escuadrón de Helicópteros de Propósitos Generales 9 Mi-17 Transport Camaguey
UM Escuadrón de Helicópteros de Propósitos Generales 9 Mi-17 Transport Camaguey
Comando de Defensa Aerea-Air Defense Command UM 1724 Regimiento de Intercepcion
UM Escuadrón de Caza 12 MiG-23ML, 2 MiG-23UB AD/ Attack Holguin
UM 3710 Escuadrón de Intercepcion 12 MiG-21Bis, 2 MiG-21UM AD/Attack Holguin
UM 3840 Escuadrón de Intercepcion 12 MiG-21Bis, 2 MiG-21UM AD/Attack Holguin
Other Important Airports that may be use from time to time:
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By: SOC - 1st September 2004 at 01:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Actually that is the standard USAF low visibility national insignia.
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By: SOC - 1st September 2004 at 01:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It is a no-brainer. They had no business trying to act in that manner, and they must have known this was a potential risk they might have to deal with one day.
Please, they were trying to incite anti-Castro feelings and distribute propaganda against the Castro government. The minute they purposely violated Cuban airspace with the intent of acting against the government they graduated to enemy status. This has nothing to do with free speech, which is nonexistant in Cuba to begin with.
They weren't merely off course, they were purposely violating Cuban airspace for the express purpose of inciting anti-government feelings. Yes, they should have been blown right out of the sky. I don't necessarily agree with Castro's policies or the communist system of government, but in this case I find no fault with Cuba's actions.
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By: Flogger - 1st September 2004 at 01:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I do not support Castro`s dictatorship and i would like to see democracy in Cuba, but i have Cuban friends (not cuban american), many consider that what happens in Cuba is surreal but few say Castro is an evil person as portraited, they say he is a Don Quixote fighting the windmills, A MiG-29 Shooting down a Cessna, well how are the Cubans going to know if the Cessna is not armed with Biological weapons and what right have the Brothers to do politics in Cuba? in the 9-11 era i am sure the US will do the same so why you complaing if the Cubans did that?
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By: Sens - 1st September 2004 at 02:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have some sympathy for Cuban people too. As SOC posted before, to exspect the AF will obey the international rules was foolish. They payed the highest price for taking such risc.
Not to exspect some sort of resistance, when there is no way to vote for another government, is foolish too.
"well how are the Cubans going to know if the Cessna is not armed with Biological weapons and what right have the Brothers to do politics in Cuba?"
Maybe you did not red the postings before. The Cubans set a trap and trained for this before. Biological weapons, what dumb arguement, when it goes about political opposition and many relatives still there.
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By: Flogger - 1st September 2004 at 03:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Acording to a Cuban friend of mine the US practised state terrorism against Cuba and he said that in many ocassions they indeed did it, so the Cubans they did not know if these were just plain panflets or any of the US attacks so they decided to shot down the cessna with this i do not mean the Brothers were attacking with biological weapons or the cubans were thinking they were thwarting a bioterrist attack by part of the Brothers but for a paranoid Castro regime that has been harassed by the US and even target of US assesination attemps, state terrorism is a threat.
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By: fabe - 1st September 2004 at 08:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
no you just don't get it. it's not important which state this does. but shooting down an unarmed plane is just a drop into the ocean compared to crimes comitted by aircraft in other parts in the world.
By: Anonymous - 1st September 2004 at 08:53 Permalink - Edited 16th October 2019 at 10:06
Or look pretty and are lucky? Anthropologic tests I have seen suggest looks play a much more important role in almost everything than talent or intelligence. Even small children will rate a pretty teacher as being "better" than a frumpy teacher even if they do and say the same things.
The little flaw regarding those points is that it doesn't matter how hard or how long you work at a menial job like street sweeper or toilet cleaner you are never going to make millions... or even enough to survive on a one income family. You can say that managers for companies work hard and without them those companies might not operate as well, but how well would society operate knee deep in our own filth.
For every successful entrepreneur there are hundreds or thousands who fail. Often the difference is luck more than anything else. Who pays for those who fail? ...everyone does... society does. Either through unemployment payments, or through the increase in crime...
A good example of a type of socialism vs capitalism would be here in New Zealand... we used to have a government controlled power network. Bloated and reasonably inefficient with too many employees. But it did its job. Up in Auckland where more than 2/3rds of NZs population lives they have three main cables taking power into the city... one was being fixed, and the other two failed and Auckland went a few weeks without power. Auckland has over 1.5 million people living in it and its power infrastructure was fully privatised. Christchurch didn't have privatised power infrastructure and for a city of about 300,000 it has 6 similar cables providing power. Probably quite inefficient really, but they haven't had any major fault related blackouts. Worth a few extra cents a year? I think so.
Even rich democracies like the US have homeless and hungry people... why would you expect more from communism than from democracy?
Look at the pictures of Stalin in Russia. He was a killer, but he offered stability... everyone had a job, everyone got a pension... sure the shops were often empty or poorly stocked but it was the same for everyone (outside the elite of course).
The Catholic Church was one of the most staunch opponents of Democracy.
Their current "Just say no" policy for safe sex says it all...
Yes, a one horse race is not very exciting, but as a government there is stability in no change every 3-5 years. Some idiot gets into power and sells off everything the state controls to make the books look better (after they spend big on their mates) and then all of a sudden everyone else owns bits of your country and no Cubans can afford to buy land. Remember why the revolution took place in the first place... Cuba was basically owned... the US Mafia owned casinos, drinking establishments, and beaches, while other foreigners owned the sugar fields that poor cubans worked for very low pay.
Doesn't sound like paradise to me.
They had violated Cuban airspace... who cares where they were shot down?
They were warned. If you had to catch someone in the act of committing a crime before you could do anything and if they had already committed it it was too late to do anything what sort of justice would you have?
They are part of a "terrorist organistation" that has spent the better part of the last 30 odd years trying to undermine the government of a country. If you succeed at that it is called a revolution, but until you do that is treason and I think there is a standard punnishment for that most places.
Rubbish. This was a repeat offender that knew the consequences of their actions. Where the plane hit the water is irrelevant they are entitled to defend their own airspace.
If that means lethal force then so be it.
They were clearly warned. Even the US didn't protest over these shootdowns.
Yet you still debate the point with us uncivilised heathens?
And indecent uncivilised heathens at that!!!
Go to an American political rally that includes lots of high up officials and stand up and shout clearly that you want to kill the president or that you have a bomb, or that the place is on fire. Even freedom of speech has its limitations... and they even got a warning... which I think is more than what you'll get if you are stupid enough to follow my suggestions.
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By: Mpacha - 1st September 2004 at 09:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sens you can down play the Piercy F1 incident as much as you like, but the fact is, it was a successful attack. It put a Mirage out of action for a long period of time. (At a time when it was very much needed.) It cost the SAAF a highly trained pilot. It was a turning point in the war, the SAAF had lost air superiority. This attack was received with surprise and shock, forcing the SAAF to suddenly change the rules of engagement. The effect was far greater than just one F1, so in my opinion, this was a kill.
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 1st September 2004 at 09:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
i think the bottom line is that if someone continues to violate the international territorial laws the forces of the territory being violated have the right to do whatever they feel like to enforce the territorial law..and if some morons continue to violate these laws then something has to be done..it really doesnt matter what is the nature of the violation and i would think that spredding propoganda would be considered a major effort to try to bring unrest in the govt..i hate castro but the cubans had the full right to shoot that plane down from what i have heard in this thread
Posts: 11,742
By: Sens - 1st September 2004 at 11:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Mpacha, when it comes to the tactical side you are right. It was the first head-on attack from an Angolian fighter, which showed some success. A nasty surprise for the SAF, which felt much superior till then. In the consequense this emergency landing was much more worthwhile than a true kill. The hurted pilot could describe the events before the accident. You can assume that many fighters returned from a mission with a damaged plane and the crew wounded. Some of the planes were w/o and others are not. Technical rated those are no kills, just damaged. Practical the result were the same nearly for the time given as you stated. No question about that.
Posts: 11,742
By: Sens - 1st September 2004 at 12:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I like the american view! When it came to Iraq, they thougt otherwise.
All the US-planes shot down outside national borders were operated by fools?
The Cuban government in force has the right to defend its national airspace, no question about that. But it is limited by international law to that. When Cuba declares its national airspace as a war-zone, they can shoot down everything flying around.
Doing not so, it is an ordinary air-policing mission and this has to stick to international rules. The intrusion of the Cessna before was a violation of Cuban law, no question about that. Not respecting internatinal laws is a crime too.
Posts: 355
By: John Boyle - 1st September 2004 at 17:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Remember, the Cessnas were shot down over INTERNATIONAL waters..that doesn't give the Cubans much a a legal leg to stand on...
And I don't recall the Americans shooting down any unarmed LIGHT non-military planes..
Posts: 11,742
By: Sens - 1st September 2004 at 17:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
"Remember, the Cessnas were shot down over INTERNATIONAL waters..that doesn't give the Cubans much a a legal leg to stand on..."
That is my opinion too.
Posts: 1,930
By: Srbin - 1st September 2004 at 18:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well if you had Al-Qaeda or ANYONE else dropping propaganda leaflets over Washington to organize a revolution against GWB, I'd bet they'd have USAF, USMC and USN all over their ass.
Now these Cessnas, were they in Cuban space or NOT?
Posts: 11,742
By: Sens - 1st September 2004 at 20:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not ashamed about dumb arguements? You can hire a Cessna there and drop your leaflets. Maybe you will be questioned about that by the FBI afterwards.
Try the same in Cuba.
I can do that every time in Germany. Flying over Berlin and dropping leaflets there,
demanding the killing of Chancellor Schöder. The police will have problems to identify me at first. Doing that several times they will catch me on the ground and I have to pay some money in doing so. Next time they will put me for some days into prison. But
why should I, I can vote him away.
Journalists showed the public, how easy it is to hire a plane and drop a bomb right over the Chancellors building. After that all planes have to be locked by key, when parked and pilots have to ask their passengers, if they are carrying some explosives!
Private planes can still fly over Berlin.
During shot-down, definetly not. Over international waters you have no right to shoot down something or you become criminal yourself.
More interesting is, why the Cuban fighters failed to catch the Cessna in time. When Rust landed his Cessna on the Red Square in Moscov, several high-ranking officers lost their job.
Is there a MiG-23 with a SAAF F-1 kill marking around? At least a pic in a Cuban war museum?
Posts: 137
By: F5M - 2nd September 2004 at 03:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Maybe only heavy one like that on 9/11... :D
Posts: 11,742
By: Sens - 2nd September 2004 at 10:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Did they? Where is the joke?
Posts: 145
By: luisdo - 2nd September 2004 at 16:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have a few concerns with what many people have been writing about the Brothers to the Rescue shoot down.
First I have some charts from the US Air Force of the events of that day. By the way the Cuban fighter planes are in Blue so that you can follow the events. Only one of the Brothers to the Rescue planes went over the 12-mile Cuban Air space limit by two miles, the rest of them did not cross that line.
As far as a terrorist organization, where is the proof, I only know about a incident earlier that year, where one of their plane flew over Havana, dropping leaflets with the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights, o I forgot that's a crime in Cuba.
Posts: 145
By: luisdo - 18th September 2004 at 22:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Cuban Air force in the early 1990s
REVOLUTIONARY AIR AND ANTI-AIRCRAFT DEFENSE FORCE in 1990
Zona Aerea Oeste
2a Brigada de la Guardia “Playa Giron”
Comando de Defensa Aerea-Air Defense Command
UM 1779 Regimiento de Caza
UM Escuadron de Caza 4 MiG-29A, 2 MiG-29UB Air Defense San Antonio de los Baños
UM Escuadron de Caza 12 MiG-23ML, 4 MiG-23UB Air Defense San Antonio de los Baños
UM 4768 Escuadron de Intercepcion 12 MiG-21Bis ,2 MiG-21UM AD/Attack San Antonio de los Baños
Comando de Transporte-Logistic Support Command
UM 3688 Regimiento de Transporte
UM Escuadrón de Transporte 9 An-26 Transport Playa Baracoa
UM Escuadrón de Transporte 9 An-26 Transport Playa Baracoa
UM Escuadrón de Transporte 8 An-2 Transport Playa Baracoa
UM 3405 Regimiento Ejecutivo 3 Yak-40, 3 An-24, 2 An-2, Transport Playa Baracoa
Marina de Guerra Revolucionaria:
UM Escuadrón de Helicópteros de Guerra Anti-Submarina 4 Mi-14PL Anti-Submarine Mariel
Escuela Militar para Pilotos Aereos (EMPA)- Air Training Command
Unit # Aircraft Type Role Air Base
UM 1650 Escuela de Aviacion Militar Comandante Che Guevara
UM Escuadrón de Enseñansa Básica 4 An-2 Primary Training San Julian/ Mantua
UM Escuadrón de Enseñansa de Vuelo Avanzada 12 MiG-21UM Combat Training San Julian
UM 7000? Escuadrón de Enseñansa de Preparacion Combativa 12 MiG-21PFMA Combat Training San Julian
UM Escuadrón de Enseñansa de Preparacion Combativa 12 MiG-21MF Combat Training San Julian
UM 1660
UM Escuadrón de Enseñansa Básica 12 L-39C Primary Training La Coloma
UM Escuadrón de Enseñansa Básica 12 L-39C Primary Training La Coloma
Other Important Airports that may be use from time to time:
[LEFT]Zona Aerea Central
1a Brigada de la Guardia “Batalla de Santa Clara”
Comando de Defensa Aerea-Air Defense Command
Unit # Aircraft Type Role Air Base
UM 1890 Regimiento de Intercepcion
UM Escuadrón de Intercepcion 12 MiG-21Bis, 2 MiG-21UM AD/Attack Santa Clara
UM Escuadrón de Intercepcion 12 MiG-21Bis, 2 MiG-21UM AD/Attack Santa Clara
Comando Aereo Tactico-Tactical Air Command
UM 2661 Escuadrón de Caza-Bombardeo 12 MiG-23BN, 2MiG-23UB Attack Santa Clara
UM Escuadrón de Caza-Bombardeo 12 MiG-23BN, 2MiG-23UB Attack Santa Clara
UM 3684 Regimiento de Helicópteros
UM Escuadrón de Helicópteros de Propósitos Generales 9 Mi-8 Transport Cienfuegos
UM Escuadrón de Helicópteros de Propósitos Generales 9 Mi-8 Transport Cienfuegos
UM Escuadrón de Helicópteros-Combate 12 Mi-24D Attack Cienfuegos
Other Important Airports that may be use from time to time:[/LEFT]
Zona Aerea Oriente
3ª Brigada de la Guardia “Cuartel Moncada”
Unit # Aircraft Type Role Air Base
UM Regimiento de Helicópteros
UM Escuadrón de Helicópteros de Propósitos Generales 9 Mi-17 Transport Camaguey
UM Escuadrón de Helicópteros de Propósitos Generales 9 Mi-17 Transport Camaguey
Comando de Defensa Aerea-Air Defense Command
UM 1724 Regimiento de Intercepcion
UM Escuadrón de Caza 12 MiG-23ML, 2 MiG-23UB AD/ Attack Holguin
UM 3710 Escuadrón de Intercepcion 12 MiG-21Bis, 2 MiG-21UM AD/Attack Holguin
UM 3840 Escuadrón de Intercepcion 12 MiG-21Bis, 2 MiG-21UM AD/Attack Holguin
Other Important Airports that may be use from time to time: