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By: - 26th July 2002 at 17:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Before anyone asks...
...the S-300V is the SA-12 family, and not included. One thing though, the radar on the SA-12B GIANT TELAR does NOT elevate. The SA-12A radar mast elevates because it has an anti-aircraft role and the designers did this to improve low-altitude capability. SA-12B is ATBM only and does not worry about low altitude targets.
SOC
"Peace through kinetic solutions"
By: - 26th July 2002 at 18:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: The S-300P/F SAM family
this is cool thx, like it a lot.
Sometimes it is verry confiusing all those radars and missle systems from the russians.
really thanks,m8
greatings Shorty
By: - 26th July 2002 at 23:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: The S-300P/F SAM family
>S-300PMU-1: SA-20A GARGOYLE
>S-300PMU-2: SA-20B GARGOYLE
From JLAD 2000/2001 I presume? So I take it the SA-10C and SA-10D desinations have been dropped then. I thought the S-400 had been tagged with the SA-20 title.
Regards, Glenn.
By: - 27th July 2002 at 01:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: The S-300P/F SAM family
No, Jane's still hasn't caught on yet. They still have some of the designations wrong for some of the systems even, like calling TOMB STONE 64N6. S-400 is SA-X-21.
SOC
"Peace through kinetic solutions"
By: - 28th July 2002 at 04:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: The S-300P/F SAM family
SOC, great info; but i think the S-300PMU info may be erroneous, I've never heard of an RV55RUD missile- the S-300PMU missile uses the 48N6 (90km), the S-300PMU1 uses the 48N6E (150km), the PMU2 uses the 48N6E2 (200km).
I'm prolly wrong tho.
By: - 28th July 2002 at 04:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: The S-300P/F SAM family
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 28-07-02 AT 04:49 AM (GMT)]Vympel-the S-300PMU-1/2 use the 48N6e1/2, which are matched to the TOMB STONE radar. The above data is the most accurate that I was able to come by, and it should be correct.
Edit-no Russian SAM should use the 48N6E-the E is for export, denoting an export version. PMU-1/2 missiles are 48N6 and 48N62 most likely. Thought I'd clarify that.
SOC
"Peace through kinetic solutions"
By: - 28th July 2002 at 08:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: The S-300P/F SAM family
SOC,
Where do you the SA-20 GARGOYLE designation from if not from Janes?
Cheers, Glenn.
By: - 29th July 2002 at 00:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: The S-300P/F SAM family
That is the new NATO/ASCC designation for the S-300PMU-1/2 (because they have the 48N6 missile and TOMB STONE radar, they got a new name). The Su-34 is also now the FULLBACK. There are some benefits to my job }>
SOC
"Peace through kinetic solutions"
By: - 1st August 2002 at 19:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: The S-300P/F SAM family
Your information about recent russian SAM missiles, especially SA-10 SA-12 seem very interesting and I am used to look for documentation about these powerful systems!
Could you give us interesting ( and if possible exhaustive ) references like books or websites dealing with these weapons?
I have already started to compulse technical ans photo data ( thanks to a diagram ) but this work seems impossible since information are contradictory...
Thanks.
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By: - 2nd August 2002 at 01:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: The S-300P/F SAM family
BIGCROW-
Feel free to ask me anything you want-I have collected a lot of data on Russian SAM systems, and Russian military hardware in general. I have a spreadsheet and a database on my computer containing all the relevant data I could think of on every single Russian missile ever made (probably 85-90% complete actually), and I have managed to weed out the disinformation and contradictions to find the right answers and the most accurate data.
As for references on Russian SAMs, try these:
Warships of the USSR and Russia since 1945 (for naval systems)
Jane's Land Based Air Defence (there are a lot of inacuracies here though, better to ask a question here as I have a few copies of JLBAD and the database to work from)
www.wonderland.org.nz-although there is a lot of inaccuracy here as well
ROSOBORONEXPORT website
Designation-Systems.net
Hope this helps!
SOC
"Peace through kinetic solutions"
By: - 2nd August 2002 at 12:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: The S-300P/F SAM family
SOC
Thanks a lot for these information, I am going to check and I think I will ask you ( by mid-august now ) some more precise information on russian SAM like Tunguska, Tor-M1 and so on.
Currently I try to understand how these systems are organized ( regiment, platoon.... how they communicate between surveillance radar site, tracking radar, launching systems etc...) but I also look for multiple side views of SAM to be sure of my own recognition works!
My project is to create some kinds of exhaustive files with photos, drawings and technical data ( like radar and missiles range, radar bands etc... ) for my own use as a military equipment great fan, and as a model-kit builder of russian very big vehicles...
One more time thanks a lot for your help.
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By: - 2nd August 2002 at 17:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: The S-300P/F SAM family
Cool SOC, that should help to clear the mess I'm having with russian SAMs. :-)
By: - 3rd August 2002 at 02:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: The S-300P/F SAM family
>Russia's Arms 2001-2002 is basically like an arms catalog
>for Russian military equipment.
True, meaning that it is a catalog of equipment available for export.
>If the E in the missile designations means export why
>doesn't the ADM system name include an E?
I have no idea. I have found alternate designations for the systems (S-300PM-1, S-300PM, S-300PT, etc), and a possible explanation is that the U in the system name denotes an export variant, the same way that the E in the radar or the missile denotes export. I am looking into this. What is clear is that there are at least 5 different variants of the system: original system with weird trailers and FLAP LID, mobile version with FLAP LID, fixed version (correct trailers) with FLAP LID, fixed version (correct trailers) with TOMB STONE, mobile version with TOMB STONE. TOMB STONE gives the ability to use the 48N6 missiles.
>In the data table in Russia's Arms 2001-2002 the range given
>for aerodynamic targets for the S-300PMU with 5V55R missiles
>is given as 7-75km, while the same system with 5V55K
>missiles the numbers given are 5-50km.
The missiles are "backwards compatible", meaning that the S-300PMU can use all of the missiles available to previous versions. 5V55RUD may not be offered for export, but it is a missile associated with this system.
>It doesn't mention 5V55V missiles.
The 5V55V isn't available for export-it had a nuclear warhead-and therefore wouldn't be in the catalog.
SOC
"Peace through kinetic solutions"
By: - 3rd August 2002 at 22:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: The S-300P/F SAM family
ASCC has nothing to do with the designation of missile systems or associated equipment. The quadripartite working group involved has a completely different acronym. NATO is simply on the distribution list.
This acronym, unlike ASCC, has never been published in open source, but quadripartite groups appear in this mil journal:
http://www.dsp.dla.mil/newsletters/journal/DSPJ-03-02.pdf.
TJ
By: - 4th August 2002 at 19:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: The S-300P/F SAM family
Can somebody describe the features of the missile itself. I understand that S-10 series missille is single stage 1500kg and S-12 is single stage 4500kg? well how near did i get?
By: - 5th August 2002 at 03:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: The S-300P/F SAM family
S-300P series missiles are single stage, with a set of 4 triangular guidance fins at the base, weighing 1600kg (5v55 series) to 1800kg (48N6 series). S-300V missiles are huge two-stage weapons weighing 2400 kg (9M83 SAM) to 5800kg (9M82 ATBM). The upper stages are similar, the difference in weight is explained by the larger booster in the 9M82. S-300V missiles have a set of small guidance fins ringing the base of the second stage.
SOC
"Peace through kinetic solutions"
By: - 5th August 2002 at 18:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: The S-300P/F SAM family
thanx
does the second stage have some sort of vector thrust or something to help maneuver in upper atm?
Posts: 12,009
By: SOC - 26th July 2002 at 17:49
In order to clear up any and all issues regarding the S-300P/F SAM systems, here is some of the data I have compiled.
NATO NAMES-Systems
S-300P/PM: SA-10A GRUMBLE
S-300PMU: SA-10B GRUMBLE
S-300PMU-1: SA-20A GARGOYLE
S-300PMU-2: SA-20B GARGOYLE
S-300F: SA-N-6 GRUMBLE
S-300FM: SA-N-20 GARGOYLE
NATO NAMES-Radars
64N6-BIG BIRD
30N6-FLAP LID
36D6-TIN SHIELD
76N6-CLAM SHELL
30N6E1/30N6E/36N6 (the Rus. name isn't that clear)-TOMB STONE
3R41-TOP DOME
S-300P-command guided 5V55K missile, 47 Km range, 64N6 EW radar, 30N6 F/C radar, 36D6 EW radar. Uses the original semi-trailer launchers that for whatever reason had to be decoupled and basically split in half to raise the missile tubes for launch as they raised "backwards".
S-300PM-SAGG guided 5V55R/5V55V missiles, 75 Km range. Used the current semi-trailer launchers.
S-300PMU-SAGG guided 5V55RUD missiles, 90 Km range, introduced 76N6 height finding radar. Systems mounted on MAZ-543 8x8 vehicles making this an extremely mobile system.
S-300PMU-1-SAGG guided 48N6 missiles, 150 Km range, introduced TOMB STONE F/C radar. Uses semi-trailer launchers.
S-300PMU-2 Favorit-SAGG guided 48N6E2 missiles, 200 Km range. Uses S-300PMU-style mobile launcher/radar vehicles.
S-300F Fort-5V55RM SAGG guided missile, 93 Km range, 3R41 F/C radar.
S-300FM Fort-M/Rif-SAGG guided 48N6 missile, 150 Km range, TOMB STONE MOD F/C radar.
Land based SAM variants can use "older" missiles (i.e. the S-300PMU-2 can still use the original 5V55K missile). I won't bother posting the designations of every piece of equipment (i.e. 1T12-2M site survey vehicle) as that is really not relevant.
Other details: S-300PMU/PMU-2 variants need 5 minutes from the time the brakes are applied till the time they can start firing.
Missiles are fired every 3 seconds, usually 2 per target.
FLAP LID/TOMB STONE can simultaneously engage 6 targets, guiding a total of 12 missiles at once.
Any questions/something not here that you want, ask and I'll answer/post it here.
SOC
"Peace through kinetic solutions"