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By: - 9th March 2004 at 03:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This is actually more bloody confusing.
What is being painted as the "SU-30MK2" or "MKK2" appears to be two seperate aircraft.
The first aircraft is the one that appeared in MAKS 2003. This is the plane with the M400 surveillance pod and the SAPSAN pod. This plane however appears to be much more enhanced for ground attack, which is the jurisdiction of the PLAAF, not the PLANAF.
The second aircraft appears to be the one certified with the Kh-31A antiship missile, and perhaps a sea optimized radar, intended for the Navy.
So which is which?
It could be both are the same plane, a kind of one size fits all type of package, although planes for the PLANAF would not be equipping with the ground attack equipment and pods, and the planes for the PLAAF won't be using antiship missiles.
So far it seems it sounds to me like this:
1.) Existing planes with the PLAAF have been given the go ahead for the upgrade.
2.) Concurrently, new SU-30MK2 planes are being delivered.
Also have a question with the number of deliveries. The delivery of planes usually means 2 batch deliveries for one regiment. 12 planes imply there may be a second batch of 12 for 24. When did the regimental numbers for bombers changed to 24? Usually the numbers are 19-20.
Should this be 10 for 20 later? Or a complete 19-20 aircraft in one single delivery?
By: - 9th March 2004 at 03:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
the planes for the PLAAF won't be using antiship missiles.
This might depend on the unit. The Q-5 unit in Jinan, the 5th Division, has done a lot of anti-ship training over the past few years. I have suspected they might be a candidate for upgrade to the Su-30MKK and maybe even the more Navalized version of the Su-30 since their mission includes an anti-shipping role.
Wasn't the order only 28? If so, maybe this delivery is 14 and the Navy will run short regiments, equipping 2 with 14 each vice the 19 or 20 or simply use the extra 8 for training. Seems like a waste though.
By: - 9th March 2004 at 05:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I've heard of too many contradictory statements about the order being 24, 28, 30, 38 and 40 aircraft.
I'm likely to believe the order is for 38-40, for 19-20 aircraft per regiment. 24 and 28 don't seem to fit any pattern, unless 24 means 20 planes for one regiment, plus 4 set aside for use in training or evaluation.
The Q-5 to SU-30MKK is way too big a jump in every other way from seating configuration (one seater vs two seater), to the range and power levels, to the technology level to the size of the aircraft. Are these the Q-5s with the antiship radar that could fire C-801s? I thought those are only with the Navy and are for experimental purposes only. I never knew if they were actually operational.
Replacing H-5 or H-6 units with the MKK is also a major leap in my book.
I suspect if a naval unit that may be converted for the MKK is likely to be using a large supersonic aircraft, with two seats, a fair level of technology and avionics, and with established antishipping capability. You are likely to use the best and most technologically adept crew for the newest and shiniest toys. I can't think of no other unit but the JH-7 reg in the 16th in Dachang. I greatly suspect, they may be converted to the MKK and their JH-7s moved to somewhere else, perhaps to convert a naval Q-5 unit.
By: - 9th March 2004 at 11:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
could u be reading a little too mcuh into this C?
the report said:'Russian Developers Deliver 12 Upgraded Su-30MK2 Airplanes to China', then it said:'...Chinese defense ministry order for the reequipping of Su-30MKK airplanes with...'.
it could simply be that the 12 planes in question are not the newer MKK2 verson was metioned in many publications, but rather just PLAAF MKKs that were sent to russia to recieve the stated upgrade, and now are being returned, these being called MK2 to differenciate from the MKKs currently in PLAAF serivce and MKK2s that will be delivered to the PLANAF.
By: - 10th March 2004 at 05:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Could be, although I didn't expect it to be this early.
Could this be fitting with the new processor to support the Kh-31A, the new DSP to extend radar range, new navigation system, support for SAPSAN and M400 pods, and a new digital cockpit similar to the SU-27SKM (the latter we actually first discussed this possibility right in this forum months ago) ?
I do expect that PLAAF would only upgrade their MKKs but not acquire new MKKs for a while, while it will be PLANAF's turn to acquire the new MKKs (at least with a roadmap of 3 or 4 regiments).
The MK2 sounds like a simple, relatively inexpensive upgrade, more akin to refining and plugging the holes.
By: - 11th March 2004 at 18:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Can the Su-30MK2 equip up to 4 AShMs as well as self defense missiles>
By: - 11th March 2004 at 18:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
i dont see a reason why not. the JH-7s can already carry 4 C80X missiles with two wingtip AAMs for selfdefence. so i'd expect the MK2s to at least match that.
in fact, i would expect the MK2s to be able to carry up to 4 AAMs for self defence (two R77 class BVRs with two R27 IRs) in addition to the AShMs, and maybe also targeting and nav pods.
an alternative configeration would be 4 AShMs with three AAMs, two targeting and nav pods and an ECM pod.
By: - 11th March 2004 at 20:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Su-30MKK can carry 6 Kh-31Ps at a time ...
By: - 11th March 2004 at 21:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Originally posted by huitong
Su-30MKK can carry 6 Kh-31Ps at a time ...
Really? I'd like to see that picture...
By: - 12th March 2004 at 12:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
KAB1500 must be included in the package of Su30mkk2 deal.
Any photos of Mkks with PGMs? Either Laser guided or TV guided.
By: - 12th March 2004 at 13:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Got this from Motif in the CMF. Motif said they're J-11s, but they look like MKKs to me. Note something hanging in the wings, which is likely to be a PGM of some kind.
By: - 12th March 2004 at 14:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
crobato,do you have any idea?
I know the MKk2 has some sort of AWACS&C4I capability,but that was a mini AWACS power. I want to know when will the PLA has her own AWACS. Because Jiang ZEmin was very furious about the Phalcon mess. And vowed to make a AWACS by China's own. I have no idea. But that was mentioned by Kanwa and somw other chinese sources like www.zgjswx.com. If China can make her own AWACS thats really good, it should be a military miracle after J10!
best Regads
By: - 12th March 2004 at 15:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Re: crobato,do you have any idea?
Originally posted by dirtyharry
I know the MKk2 has some sort of AWACS&C4I capability,but that was a mini AWACS power. I want to know when will the PLA has her own AWACS. Because Jiang ZEmin was very furious about the Phalcon mess. And vowed to make a AWACS by China's own. I have no idea. But that was mentioned by Kanwa and somw other chinese sources like www.zgjswx.com. If China can make her own AWACS thats really good, it should be a military miracle after J10!best Regads
I'm sorry but there is very little information other than what's been posted in the boards or shown in websites. Such projects are generally hush-hush. We only know they are working on one, possibly one will be chosen from two or three internal projects from competiting institutes but that's as far as it goes.
Also KAB-1500 are separate orders from the MKK2 and those had been previously ordered.
By: - 12th March 2004 at 16:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Originally posted by dirtyharry
KAB1500 must be included in the package of Su30mkk2 deal.
Any photos of Mkks with PGMs? Either Laser guided or TV guided.
If you look at that Su-30MKK/R-77 photo more closely you will see a KAB-1500 LGB at the far end of the picture ...
By: - 12th March 2004 at 16:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Originally posted by crobato
Got this from Motif in the CMF. Motif said they're J-11s, but they look like MKKs to me. Note something hanging in the wings, which is likely to be a PGM of some kind.
Yes, just can't tell what kind of PGM it is.
By: - 12th March 2004 at 17:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Probably a KAB of some kind.
By: - 12th March 2004 at 17:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Unless it's a new missile, it resembles the KH-59 of all known russian PGM the most.
By: - 12th March 2004 at 17:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Other candidates too
By: - 12th March 2004 at 18:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What radar does the MKK carry and what's it's capabilities ie range and other things?
By: - 13th March 2004 at 11:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Got this from Xinhui in the CDF. Note this confirms the 12 SU-30MKK delivery.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004.../03/01/041.html
Monday, Mar. 1, 2004. Page 5
Makers of Sukhoi Lead Arms Exporters
By Lyuba Pronina
Staff Writer
Reaping more than $2 billion in revenues last year, Sukhoi fighter jets maintained their position as the country's top arms export item, according to a report to be released Monday.
State-controlled Sukhoi tops the list of 20 defense companies that agreed to provide their 2003 financials to the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, a Moscow-based independent defense think tank that has compiled annual ratings since 1999.
Despite the strong showing of Sukhoi, which capitalized on contracts with China, this year it is likely to be bumped from that spot by fighter manufacturer Irkut Corp., the authors of the report said.
"The top five companies remained roughly the same and Sukhoi continued as No.1," Konstantin Makiyenko, deputy head of CAST, said Friday.
The companies, in descending order, are Sukhoi, tank maker Uralvagonzavod, Irkut, and aircraft engine makers Salyut and Ufa MPO.
The MiG corporation dropped from No. 5 in 2002 to No. 14 in 2003.
Both Sukhoi and Irkut manufacture Sukhoi fighters.
Sukhoi reported $1.5 billion in revenues for last year, up from $1 billion in 2002.
Privately managed Irkut ranked third, reporting $502 million in revenues, down from $528 million in 2002.
But thanks to contracts with India, Irkut may well surpass Sukhoi as the No. 1 exporter this year, Makiyenko said.
In 2004, Makiyenko said, Irkut can expect sales of approximately $800 million from deliveries of 10 Su-30MKIs to India.
Irkut will also benefit when India begins assembly of 140 of the same jets under a $3.3 billion license agreement sealed in 2000.
This month, Irkut, which is majority-owned by its management, will bring 20 percent of its shares to the MICEX and RTS exchanges in the first initial public offering by a defense firm.
Next year it is aiming for a listing on the London Stock Exchange.
Unless new contracts are signed, Sukhoi can look forward to earnings of about $600 million for the delivery of 12 Su-30MKKs to China and four Su-30s to Vietnam, Makiyenko said.
Last year arms companies continued to depend on exports for the bulk of their earnings. For example, 95 percent of Sukhoi's revenue came from sales abroad, the report said.
The company delivered only five Su-27-SMs to the Russian Air Force last year.
Yelena Sakhnova, an analyst with United Financial Group, agreed Irkut has a chance at coming in at No.1 this year, but estimates its earnings at $700 million.
Sakhnova said that while both firms will sustain export volumes in the short term, there needs to be serious investment into the research and development of new-generation systems to provide for a continuous growth in sales.
In a fourth straight record last year, Russia earned $5.4 billion from arms exports, but both Makiyenko and Sakhnova said they expect revenues to fall in 2004.
Uralvagonzavod, which came in second in the CAST ranking, earned $749.7 million in 2003.
This year it could drop out altogether, Makiyenko said, as the company has just completed a major delivery of tanks to India.
Aircraft engine makers No.4 Salyut and No.5 Ufa MPO earned $420 million and $406 million, respectively.
MiG, which dropped nine places to No. 14 in 2003, saw earnings fall from $281 million to $110 million.
MiG delivered 25 MiG-29s, including to Myanmar and Yemen, in 2002, Makiyenko said, but exports last year were considerably smaller.
Notoriously tight-lipped about exports, Tula-based Design Bureau of Instrument Building, or KBP, which makes anti-aircraft and anti-tank missile systems, for the first time agreed to provide information to CAST. It ranked No.7 with $250 million in sales.
Apart from Sukhoi fighters, Russia is scheduled to deliver a third Project 1135.6 frigate to India.
Two Project 636 diesel submarines will be delivered to China this year under a 2002 contract, Interfax quoted Vladimir Alexandrov, general director of Admiralteiskiye Verfi, as saying.
After Russia and India in January finally signed a $1.5 billion deal on the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier, no more contracts of such scale are expected, Makiyenko said.
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By: Rick - 8th March 2004 at 22:59
Russian Developers Deliver 12 Upgraded Su-30MK2 Airplanes to China
Russian aircraft firms are continuing work on the upgrade of Su-30MK2 fighters, a source in the Russian defense industrial complex reported to Interfax-AVN on Friday. He reported that the Sukhoy OKB and the Komsomol¡¯sk-on-Amur Aviation Production Association have executed joint work for a Chinese defense ministry order for the reequipping of Su-30MKK airplanes with surface weapons control systems (SUV-P) and a new flight navigational complex (PNK-27).
Joint tests were carried our in the shortest of times, certification ((ZAKLYUCHENIE)) of the Chinese military department was received and at the present time deliveries are underway to China of 12 upgraded Su-30MK2, the source declared. In his opinion, it is not ruled out that China instead of the purchase of a new batch of Su-30MK2 may conclude a supplemental agreement for the upgrade of fighters being delivered to China.
The Su-30MK2 is a multirole fighters whose weapons can include the Kh-31A supersonic anti-ship missile. It is equipped with a new electronic cockpit and aircraft radar with expanded capabilities. The Su-30MK2 will replace the aging H-6 (Tu-16 variant) bombers in the PRC¡¯s naval aviation.
Source: 05.03.04, AVN
Posted by Xiong Guangkai at CMF