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By: - 6th December 2016 at 06:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
only thing F-35 got going for it is EOTS, and while not as good as an IR camera optimized for A2A,
its an awful lot better than what F-22 has (nuffing)
By: - 6th December 2016 at 06:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
only thing F-35 got going for it is EOTS, and while not as good as an IR camera optimized for A2A,
its an awful lot better than what F-22 has (nuffing)
EOTS is for both air-air and air-ground. What's special about it is it combines the scanning of an IRST and the resolution of a FLIR. It's as good as any IRST like PIRATE or IRST21 if not better being able to lock on windows at ranges up to 80 km. Not as good rez as the latest SNIPERs pods but rated at around SNIPER XR.
By: - 6th December 2016 at 07:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
BVR, I'll take an F-22 supercruising at Mach 1.5+ with 6-8 AAM at 60,000 ft any day over the F-35. Don't underestimate systems like the AN/ALR-94 in the F-22. What the equivalent in the F-35?
By: - 6th December 2016 at 07:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
F-35 fans love to ask that question because they know that the F-35 has advantages in IR sensors, helmet and such. What they will never want to aknowledge is that the F-22 could have had the same kind of upgrades, or at least some, had the F-35 not siphoned an extra 20 billion or so of development cost.
By: - 6th December 2016 at 07:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
BVR, I'll take an F-22 supercruising at Mach 1.5+ with 6-8 AAM at 60,000 ft any day over the F-35. Don't underestimate systems like the AN/ALR-94 in the F-22. What the equivalent in the F-35?
ASQ-239. It is an upgraded ALR-94 with jamming capabilities.
By: - 6th December 2016 at 09:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
only thing F-35 got going for it is EOTS, and while not as good as an IR camera optimized for A2A,
its an awful lot better than what F-22 has (nuffing)
TBH, There is no real evidence as to why EOTS should be inferior to others IRST like OLS-35 or FSO.. etc in air to air role.
By: - 6th December 2016 at 10:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
F-35 fans love to ask that question because they know that the F-35 has advantages in IR sensors, helmet and such. What they will never want to aknowledge is that the F-22 could have had the same kind of upgrades, or at least some, had the F-35 not siphoned an extra 20 billion or so of development cost.
While the RDT&E cost over runs on the F-35 or a number of weapons system can be used as evidence to justify delays on the F-22 modernization, including the cost overrun on the F-22 itself, the bottom line is that the F-22 modernization is delayed in large part due to its small fleet size and the large expense in upgrading such a small fleet. The HMS delay is actually directly a result of the budget control act since they were in the process of evaluating one solution when the money was pulled back on account of sequestration. While there is nothing that will change the overall cost of modernization given the small size of the fleet, they will become faster and perhaps cheaper with more frequent post OMS on that program around 2020-2022 timeframe.
There is unlikely to be any significant hardware upgrade on the F-22A until they switch over to OMS while the HMS is likely to come in before that. There is little chance the F-22A gets an EOTS or anything similar.
By: - 6th December 2016 at 16:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What the equivalent in the F-35?
ASQ-239 which includes active jamming and towed decoys.
http://www.baesystems.com/en-us/download-en-us/20160718215911/1434583878736.pdf
By: - 6th December 2016 at 16:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
At Red Flag, F-22s do fight other F-22s to simulate an advanced threat like the SU-35
Doubt we will see F-35's act a red air for several more years. The USAF is more interested in integrating F-22/F-35 together, as well as with legacy aircraft. That will probably be the focus of RF exercises for the near term.
Besides, haven't read reports of F-22's being used as adversaries in Red Flag (Nellis). There are a few (two?) based there, but they are with the 433 WPS. You might be thinking of the Red Flag alaska exercises with F-22/EF-2000 DACT
The recent RF 16-3 was the first in which F-22, and F-35 participated (Don't think either were at RF 16-4).
By: - 6th December 2016 at 16:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
TBH, There is no real evidence as to why EOTS should be inferior to others IRST like OLS-35 or FSO.. etc in air to air role.
when a fighter turn, it tends to turn in positive g rather than negative, towards a target,
and is typically rated +9 -3 g.
here, it is preferable if the sensor is on top
By: - 6th December 2016 at 17:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
TBH, There is no real evidence as to why EOTS should be inferior to others IRST like OLS-35 or FSO.. etc in air to air role.
Yes there is. It is derived from an obsolete (although very good) pod. Btw, genuine question. How do these work by night in thery should be "even better", but...
By: - 6th December 2016 at 17:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes there is. It is derived from an obsolete (although very good) pod. Btw, genuine question. How do these work by night in thery should be "even better", but...
Funny how demonstrated ranges of EOTS (ie the pics that show Vegas at 35+ nm, etc) exceed the paper ranges from OLS placards (since there is no supporting pics).
By: - 6th December 2016 at 17:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
when a fighter turn, it tends to turn in positive g rather than negative, towards a target,
and is typically rated +9 -3 g.
here, it is preferable if the sensor is on top
If it's a WVR fight then EODAS is already tracking the target.
By: - 6th December 2016 at 17:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes there is. It is derived from an obsolete (although very good) pod. Btw, genuine question. How do these work by night in thery should be "even better", but...
For an Air to Air sensor the difference would not be very big. For the multi-role sensor, the EODAS+ is already in the works and should begin flight testing relatively soon. It's a simple drop in and will be standard on production aircraft post block 4.
By: - 6th December 2016 at 18:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I know about EOTS+, any links for EODAS+?
By: - 6th December 2016 at 18:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
when a fighter turn, it tends to turn in positive g rather than negative, towards a target,
and is typically rated +9 -3 g.
here, it is preferable if the sensor is on top
At long distance that make no difference regardless whether sensor on top or bottom. At short distance F-35 already got DAS
Yes there is. It is derived from an obsolete (although very good) pod. Btw, genuine question
I really dont see how Sniper-XR is any more obsolete than OLS-35 or FSO. There is EOTS+ in the work as well.
By: - 6th December 2016 at 18:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
ASQ-239 which includes active jamming and towed decoys.http://www.baesystems.com/en-us/download-en-us/20160718215911/1434583878736.pdf
Thanks for that. Any specs on it? AN/ALR-94 is said to have a range greater than 250 nmi. I've heard when the F-22 is flying a certain altitude the AN/ALR-94 range is much higher. AN/ALR-94 supposed have the capability to help cue the AN/APG-77 to very specific narrow beams. Narrow beams allow for greater range and less detectability. There were rumors sometime back that the AN/ALR-94 can provide an AIM-120 with most of the information it requires with fairly good accuracy.
There has to be a reason why the F-22 was never exported despite at least Japan showing interest in it. F-35 does not have that restriction. So, at least in BVR battle I'll happily take the F-22. WVR is another story.
By: - 6th December 2016 at 18:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The reason the F-22 cannot be exported is not because it's more advanced. Many F-35 parts are improved versions of the F-22 for example APG-81 is based off APG-77, and ASQ-239 is based of ALR-94. The reason for export ban is because for one it's mostly a US project vs. an international one. Also, the F-22 wasn't designed in the first place to be exported. It's coding can be easily replicated. The F-35 has safety measures. You can't just find a F-35 and copy it.
when a fighter turn, it tends to turn in positive g rather than negative, towards a target,
and is typically rated +9 -3 g.
here, it is preferable if the sensor is on top
Uh, the EOTS is designed mainly for BVR, it being on top doesn't matter it is angled enough to see top targets at BVR like the F-14's IRST. At closer ranges it would use EODAS instead.
Yes there is. It is derived from an obsolete (although very good) pod. Btw, genuine question. How do these work by night in thery should be "even better", but...
Although the EOTS is "obsolete" compared the newer SNIPER, the SNIPER lacks any IRST function. SNIPER is mainly ground attack rather air-air due to this. It can't scan targets in the sky.
FLIR's typically are have greater ranges of detection vs dedicated IRSTs since they focus on starring. Reason for targetting pods on the Eurofighter and Rafale rather than use their IRSTs for ground attack.
By: - 6th December 2016 at 18:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
EOTS allow you to ID the fighter, DAS does not have that ability at any range
By: - 6th December 2016 at 18:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
EOTS allow you to ID the fighter, DAS does not have that ability at any range
Not the newer DAS. Those can zoom in. The older Gen helmet had some visualization problems that some pilots didn't like, but newer ones are a 360 IRST.
Posts: 127
By: Armed Update - 6th December 2016 at 06:27
The F-35 has participated in Red Flag this year and heard reports it's performance is much like the Raptor. At Red Flag, F-22s do fight other F-22s to simulate an advanced threat like the SU-35. In the future F-22s will likely fight F-35s to simulate opponents like the J-20 and J-31.
The JSF is described as having a broader spectrum of combat operating more in the infrared, laser, and communications while the F-22 remains only dominant in the radar spectrum. General Mike Hostage has stated before the F-22 although less stealthy than the F-35(also stated by General Bogdan), is more capable in some areas(he stated 2 F-22s can do the job of 8 F-35's I believe) and the F-35 is not necessarily superior to the Raptor.
So what would combat really look like if they went face to face in a Blue Team v Red Team scenario? Of course training really helps and the F-35 with it's much less cluttered sensor display is much easier to control and react. Also it has the SA with it's EODAS and helmet making it much easier to fight in. The newer APG-77v1 radar on the F-22 may give it a longer range since it's larger, but the F-35 is more stealthier and has APG-81 radar AND a ASQ-239 that can both jam. Combined with the EODAS and EOTS the F-35 may get the first look.
However, the F-22 does have stealth as well. It may have some techniques to defeat a JSF force. Such as flying lower in cloud backgrounds so IR has harder time to track it. Or to fly in a formation up high where contrails can act has shield for midcourse upgrades from IR sensors and force the JSF to run out of AAMs by making them rely only their active seekers. If the fight gets up close enough, it can exploit it's newer AIM-9X missiles and superior agility to kill it's more high tech cousin.