Stealth fighter effectiveness in SEAD , DEAD

By: Hotshot - 11th September 2014 at 08:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Ah, okay. How much more expensive/difficult would it be give them the AARGM upgrade?

I don't know, probably a lot more. Upgrading relatively old missiles may not be very cost-effective, hence the relatively simple upgrade. They need a new generation of missiles that can fit inside the F-35...

By: lukos - 11th September 2014 at 11:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

I don't know, probably a lot more. Upgrading relatively old missiles may not be very cost-effective, hence the relatively simple upgrade. They need a new generation of missiles that can fit inside the F-35...

Meteor ARM/JDRADM would be my option but I know a T-3 is already being developed.

By: Mercurius - 11th September 2014 at 11:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

By T-3, I assume that you mean the DARPA Triple Target Terminator (T3) Advanced Missile demonstration programme.

Have you seen any recent news of this programme? It was due to undergo a a Critical Design Review in FY11, followed by a Test Readiness Review in FY12, and a flight demonstration in FY13. None of these events seem to have taken place.

By: lukos - 11th September 2014 at 11:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

By T-3, I assume that you mean the DARPA Triple Target Terminator (T3) Advanced Missile demonstration programme.

Have you seen any recent news of this programme? It was due to undergo a a Critical Design Review in FY11, followed by a Test Readiness Review in FY12, and a flight demonstration in FY13. None of these events seem to have taken place.

So a military project is running late? Now that is unusual. Or is it officially cancelled?

By: Mercurius - 11th September 2014 at 12:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

The Joint Dual-Role Air Dominance Missile was cancelled in 2012 due to funding problems, and given that the T3 programme seems to have been linked to it, and has apparently accomplished nothing since being started in around FY10, it has probably also been cancelled.

By: Hotshot - 11th September 2014 at 12:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Meteor ARM/JDRADM would be my option but I know a T-3 is already being developed.

I have never seen anything concrete about an ARM meteor. Have you? As for the JDRADM/T-3, hopefully they will find funds to continue the R&D.

An ARM mode for a BVR missile would be a good feature. The enemy plane would be paranoid about using its radar and guiding its missiles, which would reduce their pk.

By: obligatory - 11th September 2014 at 13:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

the brilliance of JDRADM is the flexibility, now all of the sudden all A2A missiles can be used vs SAM,
the fighter cover can join in the effort if need be

By: lukos - 11th September 2014 at 16:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

I have never seen anything concrete about an ARM meteor. Have you?

Not concrete just rumours. There is a large hole to be plugged in European SEAD capability, so it seems a logical step.

By: Hotshot - 11th September 2014 at 17:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

the brilliance of JDRADM is the flexibility, now all of the sudden all A2A missiles can be used vs SAM,
the fighter cover can join in the effort if need be

The JDRADM is a bit expensive to kill a SAM but it's probably better than being shot down.

However if the JDRADM is really fast and really good at killing radars ( not crappy like the HARM ), perhaps attacking the radar with the missile would be the best bet.

By: Hotshot - 11th September 2014 at 17:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Not concrete just rumours. There is a large hole to be plugged in European SEAD capability, so it seems a logical step.

That would make sense but I am under the impression that killing a radar is pretty hard. Using expensive missiles like a meteor may not be the most cost effective way to do it. It would need a really good ability to find it when it is turned off.

By: Mercurius - 11th September 2014 at 17:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

the brilliance of JDRADM is the flexibility, now all of the sudden all A2A missiles can be used vs SAM,the fighter cover can join in the effort if need be

JDRAM is the Joint Dual-Role Air Dominance Missile whose demise in 2012 I mentioned earlier today.

By: lukos - 11th September 2014 at 20:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

That would make sense but I am under the impression that killing a radar is pretty hard. Using expensive missiles like a meteor may not be the most cost effective way to do it. It would need a really good ability to find it when it is turned off.

We have MWR technology, so I wonder if it's possible to get a radar to do Ku and W band or maybe Ku and Ka.

By: hopsalot - 12th September 2014 at 02:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

The Joint Dual-Role Air Dominance Missile was cancelled in 2012 due to funding problems, and given that the T3 programme seems to have been linked to it, and has apparently accomplished nothing since being started in around FY10, it has probably also been cancelled.

That is incorrect. The T3 program proceeded to its completion more or less on schedule, but the results have not been publicized.

See this DARPA budget document: www.darpa.mil/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=2147487546

Title: Triple Target Terminator (T3)
Description: The Triple Target Terminator (T3) program developed a high speed, long-range missile to engage air, cruise missile,
and air defense targets. T3 would be carried internally on stealth aircraft or externally on fighters, bombers, and UAVs. The
enabling technologies are: air breathing propulsion, advanced networking and data links, and flexible guidance and control. T3
would allow any aircraft to rapidly switch between air-to-air and air-to-surface capabilities. T3's speed, maneuverability, and
network-centric capabilities would significantly improve U.S. aircraft survivability and increase the number and variety of targets
that could be destroyed on each sortie. The program is jointly funded with, and will transition to the Air Force.
FY 2013 Accomplishments:
- Fabricated and ground tested flight test articles.
- Obtained final flight test approval from Point Mugu Test Range.
- Conducted propulsion testing of flight weight engines.
- Completed flight qualification of Flight Termination System (FTS).
- Completed qualification of several subsystem components.
- Completed ground tests of flight test articles.
- Conducted captive carry test of flight test articles.
- Conducted separation tests of flight test articles.
- Completed propulsion testing of flight weight engines.
- Completed build and assembly of flight test articles.
- Conducted boost tests of flight test articles.
- Conducted airborne launch demonstrations of test articles against three target types.
- Completed and delivered final test report.

By: Hotshot - 12th September 2014 at 07:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

We have MWR technology, so I wonder if it's possible to get a radar to do Ku and W band or maybe Ku and Ka.

I don't know, depends on the size of the antenna maybe?

By: Mercurius - 12th September 2014 at 10:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

That is incorrect. The T3 program proceeded to its completion more or less on schedule, but the results have not been publicized.

An excellent 'find'! Thanks for bringing it to our attention and correcting my erroneous statement.

By: lukos - 12th September 2014 at 11:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

So was JDRADM renamed, or did they just realise that they had 2 programs doing the same thing and cancel one?

By: bring_it_on - 12th September 2014 at 12:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

It wasn't renamed. The JDRADM was a program to develop, test and field a BVR missile with the often advertised capability. DARPA's T-3 program on the other hand was a program to develop and test technologies for a capability not too dissimilar to the JDRADM. The T-3 program was a technology program quite in line with what DARPA does. It has now been handed over to the USAF and has officially concluded after the two missiles (Boeing and Raytheon) were tested as planned. At least one of these missiles used a second generation solid fueled ramjet design from my understanding (AerGen by Aerojet) and it is quite possible that both of these missiles used ramjet propulsion.

I wouldn't be surprised of the USAF sits on this for a while and kick a JDRADM like program in a few years when the sequester threat has vanished (if). There is a clear intention not to talk about these future plans much as has been highlighted by some of the journalists that have tried to seek an answer to " what next".

By: MadRat - 12th September 2014 at 12:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Or they used metrics to solve the question which method is more effective and will likely draw up an rfp to multiple vendors based on this choice in the future. Some lulls are designed to allow competition to catch up.

By: bring_it_on - 12th September 2014 at 12:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

From my understanding, the main thing that drove the JDRADM to be cancelled was the long term budgeting for the program that would have gone onto something like 12-15 Billion dollars for the development, testing and acquisition phase of the program. Lockheed was left out of the T-3 and would have most likely invested its internal funds on its missile development efforts (perhaps the CUDA was that) and will surely look to offer some level of competition on a hypothetical program in the future.