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By: - 21st August 2014 at 23:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Too few radars in the above post. Add at least a dozen more, with pictures and exact golf ball detection ranges and then we can all join in. Golf ball also has to be specified, is it the made in america Bridgestone or the tour preferred Titelist.
By: - 22nd August 2014 at 00:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Too few radars in the above post. Add at least a dozen more, with pictures and exact golf ball detection ranges and then we can all join in. Golf ball also has to be specified, is it the made in america Bridgestone or the tour preferred Titelist.
i know that sarcasm but it not really easy to find public info about SAM radar anyway , alot easier to find info of fighter radar
By: - 22nd August 2014 at 02:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I find that interesting. For sure the nbr are probably off but the scale of it, the order is interesting.
Note that comparing Surface to Air and A2A proved inadequate. Your S400 having lower performance that an IRBIS or a ZASLON.
By: - 22nd August 2014 at 02:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I find that interesting. For sure the nbr are probably off but the scale of it, the order is interesting.Note that comparing Surface to Air and A2A proved inadequate. Your S400 having lower performance that an IRBIS or a ZASLON.
probably due to the fact that it an older version of S-400 radar vs newest version of fighter radar may be ? , i think , or could be different radar mode ? , like say S-400 radar may have shorter range but wider FOV and much harder to jam ? , or probably ground radar affected more by clutter so they have to reduce gain ?
any way there are couple more
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Acquisition-GCI.html
it seem that the SPY-1D just significantly stronger than any other radar system (except AN/TPY-2 or SBX-1 ) i remember reading some where that those 2 can see golf ball from 1000 km
By: - 22nd August 2014 at 08:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
F-35 are first declared to have frontal RCS of a golf ball , about 0.0015 m2 , F-22 are declared to have frontal RCS of a marble , about 0.0001 m2
An object's RCS is dependent on the wavelength of the radar evaluating the object.
The wavelength of say, an SPY-1D (3-3.5 GHz), will not be the same as an APG-77 (8-11 GHz).
Therefore, you are comparing apples to oranges and producing brussel sprouts!*
In reality, the RCS of the F-35 (or F-22/PAK-FA/J-20) will be much higher when faced with an SPY-1D than when faced with an APG-77.
*which are rubbish! :cool:
By: - 22nd August 2014 at 08:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The F-35 has a weapon weakness against the most powerful radars since the cancellation of NGM, but against others radars it would be well armed with 8 munitions carried internally. Spear 3 range is up to 120km:
http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Brimstone_(missile)
At the same time MBDA were awarded an Assessment Phase contract for SPEAR Capability 3[19] (formerly SPEAR Drop 2). This requires a 75 miles (120 km) range[22] missile with a 100 kilograms (220 lb) warhead[14] to be integrated onto the F-35 Lightning II. Spear 3 may use some modules from Brimstone, and will have flight trials by 2014.[21]
I can well imagine the F-35s carrying a mix of relatively low cost SDBs and Spear 3s for SEAD/strike on the same launchers for strike missions.
Perhaps they can launch a JASSM and remote control it from an F-35. The JASSM has a terminal seeker for terminal guidance and a dual way datalink.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-158_JASSM
Target recognition and terminal homing is via an imaging infrared seeker. A data link allows the missile to transmit its location and status during flight, allowing improved bomb damage assessment.
The JASSM also has a new seeker for the LRASM:
The JASSM-ER is also the basis for Long Range Anti-Ship Missile, which is a JASSM-ER with new seeker
By: - 22nd August 2014 at 10:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
All of the above being external carriage?
By: - 22nd August 2014 at 11:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
All of the above being external carriage?
Spear 3 is supposed to be internal.
By: - 22nd August 2014 at 12:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Gamma-DE and Protivnik-GE are not S-400 radar, but 2 of many early warning radars.
By: - 22nd August 2014 at 13:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yep SPEAR 3 is internal from the outset and worries Raytheon so much that it will compete for the UK requirement with a version of SDB (internal also obviously).
By: - 22nd August 2014 at 14:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Perhaps they can launch a JASSM and remote control it from an F-35. The JASSM has a terminal seeker for terminal guidance and a dual way datalink.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-158_JASSMThe JASSM also has a new seeker for the LRASM:
I think using JSM is a better option, smaller, already have iir seeker +2 ways data link
the think I hate about IIR AtG missile is that there already many kind of coating to reduce Ir significantly ex :intermat so they are very unlikely to be useful
anyway aim-9x can attack ground target and block 3 promised max range of about 55 km again air target, so range again ground target probably alot higher
By: - 22nd August 2014 at 14:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yep SPEAR 3 is internal from the outset and worries Raytheon so much that it will compete for the UK requirement with a version of SDB (internal also obviously).
SPEAR 3 is so much better than SDB II,due to the engine it much faster, less affected by weather, also can be launched from below radar horizon ( it have an engine so high altitude drop will not be very necessary )
By: - 22nd August 2014 at 14:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
An object's RCS is dependent on the wavelength of the radar evaluating the object.The wavelength of say, an SPY-1D (3-3.5 GHz), will not be the same as an APG-77 (8-11 GHz).
Therefore, you are comparing apples to oranges and producing brussel sprouts!*
In reality, the RCS of the F-35 (or F-22/PAK-FA/J-20) will be much higher when faced with an SPY-1D than when faced with an APG-77.
:
actually you are right
but wasn't the F-35 was designed to defeat s-300 series ( big bird radar) which use the same frequency as SPY-1, it's RCS can't be too big at that frequency , bigger than 0.0001 m2 sure, but maybe not sth like 100 m2, not to mention many stealth ASM are still in development which mean low band radar doesn't negate stealth completely (render the RAM ineffective but shaping still working)
any way i remember there a formula to translate aircraft RCS in x-band to RCS in lower band
By: - 22nd August 2014 at 14:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think using JSM is a better option, smaller, already have iir seeker +2 ways data link
the think I hate about IIR AtG missile is that there already many kind of coating to reduce Ir significantly ex :intermat so they are very unlikely to be useful
anyway aim-9x can attack ground target and block 3 promised max range of about 55 km again air target, so range again ground target probably alot higher
Like we have discussed before the 9X is not completely stealthy. If you really want as much stealth as possible to enter the enemy airspace it might not be the right idea.
JSM yes, if it is integrated ( at block 4 ).
I am wondering whether loitering weapons are not superior to supersonic ARM. The HARM has had a pretty poor record so far. The AARGM would hopefully fare better, but a loitering weapon can be given approximate target location from the stealth plane at long range and search for the radar itself.
By: - 22nd August 2014 at 15:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The answer to suppression of air defense is spelled UAV
Dedicated for the Suppression of Air Defense (SEAD) mission, Harpy is an operational loitering attack weapon. The current version of Harpy is deployed as a fire and forget weapon. It patrols the assigned area, and will attack any hostile radar activated in its vicinity. When used in appropriate numbers, Harpy can be launched into a target area to support continuous operations, or time limited strike packages. Unlike anti-radar missiles such as HARM, whose speed, range and direction of approach are predictable, the killer drone deployment is more flexible and unpredictable, and therefore, conventional countermeasures techniques are not useful against it. In fact, Harpy is holding enemy radars at risk throughout its mission. Harpy system is designed to operate multiple munitions simultaneously over a specific area, to effectively cover the target. Each drone is deployed autonomously, without interference and overlapping the other drones. (continue)
http://defense-update.com/directory/harpy.htm
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By: - 22nd August 2014 at 15:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Lockheed has a similar system, the SMACM, that can be launched from a BRU-61:
http://defense-update.com/products/s/smacm.htm
I find it hard to believe that the DOD would not be interested by such a tremendous capability. We don't know everything the F-22 and F-35 are capable of. When one looks at the enormous cost of the F-22 upgrade and F-35 development, it wouldn't appear so surprising if this type of weapon were fielded in secret.
By: - 22nd August 2014 at 15:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Starting after Block 4 you will many weapons being developed and used for the F-35 thanks to UAI.
This also allows for quicker "Black Projects" since no changes to the F-35 need to take place.
By: - 22nd August 2014 at 15:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
MALD and MALD-J
By: - 22nd August 2014 at 16:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Lockheed has a similar system, the SMACM, that can be launched from a BRU-61:
http://defense-update.com/products/s/smacm.htmI find it hard to believe that the DOD would not be interested by such a tremendous capability. We don't know everything the F-22 and F-35 are capable of. When one looks at the enormous cost of the F-22 upgrade and F-35 development, it wouldn't appear so surprising if this type of weapon were fielded in secret.
Outstanding ! thanks
By: - 22nd August 2014 at 16:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
SMACM is dead from what I know, we had a talk about it just a few days ago (So is LOCAAS). MALD and MALD-J target IAD's while the stealth fleet deals with the pop up threats with the weapons they have and that will be fielded in the future. I am sure CHAMP will be an important part in the future (or derivatives)
http://www.boeing.com/Features/2012/10/bds_champ_10_22_12.html
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By: mig-31bm - 21st August 2014 at 23:02
F-35 are first declared to have frontal RCS of a golf ball , about 0.0015 m2 , F-22 are declared to have frontal RCS of a marble , about 0.0001 m2
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=49QmlNcqlUAC&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70&dq=marbal+f-22&source=bl&ots=IowajJfN-l&sig=jSYd2M-TlwcGRCefiwhzGcUGNz8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=k1_2U_eTE82W0QXos4EQ&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
however according to an interview recently with gen Mike Hostage it reveal that
http://breakingdefense.com/2014/06/gen-mike-hostage-on-the-f-35-no-growlers-needed-when-war-starts/4/
so i think F-35 RCS may be 0.0001 m2 or closer to that rather than 0.001 m2 , that may be due to the improvement of the material being used thus allow LM to excess their requirement.
Firstly in theory radar range will reduced by 44 % when aircraft RCS reduced by 10 times
Range of some very strong radar system vs F-35 in theory ( no jamming , clutter ..etc )
1- SMART-L
are said to be able to detect LO target with RCS = 0.001 m2 from 65 km so the F-35 ( rcs = 0.0001 m2 ) will be detect from 36.4 km
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4S3h8j_NEmkC&pg=PA263&lpg=PA263&dq=smart-L+stealth+missile+km&source=bl&ots=hJRyOS_ZfZ&sig=RqlhsrbEaJmGJ5A4JLFwoLFL8DA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ejn2U7nkLujZ0QXXo4Bw&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=smart-L%20stealth%20missile%20km&f=false
2- SPY-1D ( Aegis ship radar )
can track golf ball-sized targets ( 0.001 m2 ) at ranges in excess of 165 km so the F-35 ( rcs = 0.0001 m2 ) will be tracked from 92.4 km
http://mostlymissiledefense.com/2012/08/03/ballistic-missile-defense-the-aegis-spy-1-radar-august-3-2012/
3 - 67N6E GAMMA-DE ( s-400 radar )
the best version can detect target with RCS = 0.1 m2 from 240 km so the F-35 ( rcs = 0.0001 m2 ) will be detected from 42 km
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-Low-Band-Radars.html
4-59N6E Protivnik GE 3D Surveillance Radar ( S-400 radar )
can detect target with RCS about 1 m2 from 340 km so the F-35 ( rcs = 0.0001 m2 ) will be detected from 33 km
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-Low-Band-Radars.html
5- Tor-m1 ( short range air defense )
can detect and track up to 48 targets (minimum radar cross section of 0.1 square meter) at a maximum range of 25 km so the F-35 ( rcs = 0.0001 m2 ) will be detected from 4.3 km
http://defense-update.com/products/t/tor.htm
6- IRBIS-E ( Su-35s , may be PAK-FA in future )
detection range for targets with RCS=3m2 is 350-400 km , spot super-low-observable targets with RCS = 0.01 square meters at ranges out to 90 kilometers so the F-35 ( rcs = 0.0001 m2 ) will be detected from 39 km
http://www.deagel.com/Aircraft-Warners-and-Sensors/Irbis_a001800001.aspx
7- Zaslon-M ( Mig-31 radar ) detection range of 400 km for 20 m2 RCS so F-35 ( rcs = 0.0001 m2 ) will be detected from 22 km
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaslon
the most common SEAD , DEAD weapons for F-35 , F-22 will be SDB , SPEAR with range of about 100 km , do you think that long enough ? , is it necessary to develop SEAD missiles with longer range , or small stealth missiles
Btw some fighter radar seem incredibly strong even when compared to ground system