By: bring_it_on
- 17th March 2013 at 11:50Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Some more info:
While the Navy is reluctant to talk about the F/A-XX, aerospace industry officials contend that some of its features will be similar to the F-22's. The new strike-fighter design will likely fly faster, higher and farther into the threat ring than other Navy aircraft. That will produce an increase in its radar and infrared detection horizons and allow it to pinpoint targets for weapons launched from non stealthy designs at lower altitudes and farther from the target.
We're looking at replacing the Super Hornet when it reaches 9,000 flight hours,” says Gaddis says. About 150 Super Hornets will be modified for a 10,000-flight-hour life, says Capt. Frank Morley, program manager for the F/A-18E/F and EA-18G.
“Attributes of the [F/A-XX] aircraft— speed, range, payload, growth—will be shaped by what else is going on. There is a lot of analytical work on manned and unmanned follow-on platforms, advanced networks and where we are headed with [the] AirSea Battle [concept].”
I think this program would have a better chance (if any) if the USN looks to bring aboard the USAF, that can potentially replace the F-15E fleet as well. A 150-200 fighter program would be too expensive, they would have to bring in some economies of scale otherwise "no chance"..
By: Freehand
- 17th March 2013 at 13:15Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think it would be manned, with an option to have it "optionally manned" in later blocks. It was written around when the JSf started that this would be the last manned fighter, and that UCAV's will be taking over most missions into the future. Fast forward, the JUCAS , X-45,47 etc are going no where, the USAF next big project LRS-B will most likely be manned.
We'll see... There is still the financial aspect of the project. The U.S. government isn't in the best position for such ventures.
By: bring_it_on
- 17th March 2013 at 13:19Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The U.S. government isn't in the best position for such ventures.
I agree that securing finance for a navy only Fighter project is going to be tough. However, The DOD has shown keen interest in protecting programs it deems strategically important such as the F-35, LRS-B etc It would all depend on how important DOD sees this program. A republican president in 2016 could also change things a lot, since some republicans are hawkish when it comes to high tech weapons.
By: bring_it_on
- 8th April 2013 at 04:44Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Boeing unveils updated F/A-XX sixth-gen fighter concept
Boeing is unveiling an updated version of its F/A-XX sixth-generation fighter concept at the Navy League's Sea-Air-Space Exposition in Washington DC this week.
The Boeing F/A-XX concept is a response to a USN request for information (RFI) from April 2012 soliciting data for a replacement for the service's Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler fleets in the 2030s. The Super Hornet fleet is expected to start reaching the end of the jet's 9000h useful lifespan during that time period.
By: bring_it_on
- 8th April 2013 at 05:05Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Lockheed reveals bold technology plans with 6th-gen fighter concept
Skunk Works division has revealed a conceptual next-generation fighter design that offers the first hints of an ambitious, long-term technology strategy for the new class of tactical aircraft that will emerge after 2030.
Featuring an F-22-like nose, an unusually contoured wing and nearly flat canted tails, the concept suggests a new level of speed and agility.
Lockheed also seemed to take a thinly-veiled shot at a next generation fighter concept released in September by Boeing, which showed a manned and optionally manned, tailless fighter with a conventional wing.
"Simply removing the pilot from an aircraft or introducing incremental improvements in signature and range does not constitute a generational leap in capability," Lockheed said in response to Flightglobal's questions.
"These improvements are already being looked att for our fifth generation fighters," the company added.
Instead, possible technologies for a next-generation fighter should include "greatly increased speed", more range and new features like self-healing structures and multi-spectral stealth, the company said.
Such capabilities must be supported by new breakthroughs in propulsion, materials, power generation and weapons, Lockheed said, adding some of these are "yet to be fully imagined".
Should LMA not study a SUPER-Raptor for such a weapons requirement? It could include a new engine, that should allow it to reach its max speed without AB, increase range etc..You could develop all the changes planned (Some funded others not) for the F-22A fleet and also have USAF foot the bill atleast for system development...A new radar with side arrays, borrow the EOTS/DAS for commonality with the fleet...Brush up on the stealth and borrow some of the tech developed for the F-35...It sounds atleast on paper to be a much less risky proposition that would have a stronger chance of surviving any efforts to thwart it...Perhaps boeing would not be willing to co produce as they were a contractor in the raptor..
New
By: Anonymous
- 8th April 2013 at 05:08Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I don't think we will see much movement on any 6th Generation Fighter for another several years. As the US doesn't have the resources to start such a project nor do we have a serious threat to support the need for one.
By: bring_it_on
- 8th April 2013 at 05:12Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I don't think we will see much movement on any 6th Generation Fighter for another several years. As the US doesn't have the resources to start such a project nor do we have a serious threat to support the need for one.
It seems all the BIG PLAYERS are responding to the navy's RFP's ...>Beyond this i expect the Navy to take a good amount of time, and sit on them while it tries to figure out what to do next...Any such program should kickstart around 2020-2022 with a 10-12 year development phase...Congressional pressure may cause USN to seriously consider an ALL F-35 fleet post 2030 but i guess it would all depend on WHO is in power circa 2020-2022...
New
By: Anonymous
- 8th April 2013 at 05:18Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It seems all the BIG PLAYERS are responding to the navy's RFP's ...>Beyond this i expect the Navy to take a good amount of time, and sit on them while it tries to figure out what to do next...Any such program should kickstart around 2020-2022 with a 10-12 year development phase...Congressional pressure may cause USN to seriously consider an ALL F-35 fleet post 2030 but i guess it would all depend on WHO is in power circa 2020-2022...
I agree completely.......
New
Posts: 3,381
By: Rii
- 8th April 2013 at 05:38Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Boeing unveils updated F/A-XX sixth-gen fighter concept
Someone should let Boeing know that canards are incompatible with VLO; they clearly haven't got the memo.
New
Posts: 6,983
By: obligatory
- 8th April 2013 at 06:22Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Nice low-drag design, they did away with tail altogether
By: topspeed
- 8th April 2013 at 06:38Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think only a handful countries can afford a few starships with DE,
the rest will keep flying old fighters if operational cost allows it,
and replace with UCAV & GBAD.
Suffice to say i'm not thrilled.
This is why I suggest to decrease the size and start real drag reduction studies at all intitutes that have able mathematicians to back it up with striking clever numbers.
By: bring_it_on
- 8th April 2013 at 09:30Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Also.. how many times will boeing change their F/A-XX configuration?
As many times as they want before submitting their plans. I believe with RFP's you could also submit multiple entries..It is not uncommon to have multiple changes to proposal and designs at this stage...
By: bring_it_on
- 8th April 2013 at 09:35Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The U.S. government isn't in the best position for such ventures.
The major thrust for funding would not be required at this stage. The USN has to look and sit on the RFP's in order to develop a strategy for the next phase, meanwhile the engine technology required is all ready being developed and tested as we speak in separate programs that are fully funded (Quarter of a billion Development dollars alone in 2012)..
It has also be widely reported that the avionics for the LRS-B will build on those on the F-22/F-35 so you all ready have a program in place to build up on that technology..Therefore the major PUSH IN FUNDING early on, to get the systems in place may not be required very early on, as those things are taken care off. If launched major funding would probably have to start around 2020-2022 when they start to down select candidates and think about having a fly-off. Uptil that very little money would be required to advance the program in addition to that which has all ready been planned.
Frank Morley, F/A-18 and EA-18G program manager, said the F/A-XX is not intended as a “hedge” against ongoing problems with the F-35 program, nor is the future aircraft rendered unnecessary by the JSF. He noted that Super Hornets will be close to 20 years older than the first operational F-35s. “In the 2020-2030 time frame we intend to be a Super Hornet-JSF fleet, and then those Super Hornets are going to be aging out,” he said. “So we’re going to need to be a JSF and ‘something else’ fleet, and that something else is the F/A-XX.”
By: Anonymous
- 25th April 2013 at 05:39Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
“In the 2020-2030 time frame we intend to be a Super Hornet-JSF fleet, and then those Super Hornets are going to be aging out,” he said. “So we’re going to need to be a JSF and ‘something else’ fleet, and that something else is the F/A-XX.”
Really, that is wishful thinking in my opinion. As we aren't likely to see any major funding until at least 2020. Then is would take another 15-20 years for Design, Development, Testing, and get it into Production. So, we are really talking about 2040 before any 6th Generation Fighter starts to enter the Fleet. Clearly, the Super Hornet won't be around that long. Which, is why I've said that a number of Super Hornet Squadrons are likely to be replaced by more F-35's.
It's also worth noting that China and Russia are a good decade or more behind the US in Stealth Fighters. So, there is little short-term need to press ahead with a 6th Generation Fighter at this time.
By: bring_it_on
- 25th April 2013 at 09:03Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Really, that is wishful thinking in my opinion. As we aren't likely to see any major funding until at least 2020. Then is would take another 15-20 years for Design, Development, Testing, and get it into Production. So, we are really talking about 2040 before any 6th Generation Fighter starts to enter the Fleet. Clearly, the Super Hornet won't be around that long. Which, is why I've said that a number of Super Hornet Squadrons are likely to be replaced by more F-35's.
The 5th generation time line is around 20 years from RFP stage or approximately 23 years from RFI (where the Fa-xx is at the momeny) The ATF , RFP was issued in 1985 , First prototypes flew in 1990. The FA-xx as per information is at the RFI stage so if the USN decides to pursue it with enthusiasm they should be able to get it into the fleet by around 2032-2035 depending upon how ambitious they are. The JAST--JSF program would also deliver something in the 20-25 year time period from RFI/RFP stage but the JSF is a much bigger development program compared to the ATF/F-22A given the design challenge and conflicting demands. The USAF cheif commented in 2010 that they'd be starting the initial studies around 2011-2012 for a 6th generation fighter...This would mean a similar time line for the USAF replacement program as well since the First raptors would be pushing 25-30 years of age by then. I am sure that F-18E/F's would continue to be replaced by future versions of the F-35 and eventually the FA-xx would be procured in lesser numbers depending upon the threat which exists at that time (How the J20, chinese naval 4.5-5th gen threat materializes etc). Fa-xx may or may not be pursued but there is no doubt in my mind that both the USN and USAF would begin (very soon) work on the 6th generation fighter, as none are contemplating getting out of the FIGHTER force structure...Air Dominance is a pre-requisite to all DOD war doctrines and strategy, and given that there are multiple other 5th generation projects going on throughout the world, the 6th generation guidelines and requirements have to be very aggresivly pursued to maintain a CLEAR edge compared to chinese 5-5.5-6th gen designs in the post 2040 time frame.
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 17th March 2013 at 11:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Some more info:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_05_14_2012_p43-453524.xml&p=2
I think this program would have a better chance (if any) if the USN looks to bring aboard the USAF, that can potentially replace the F-15E fleet as well. A 150-200 fighter program would be too expensive, they would have to bring in some economies of scale otherwise "no chance"..
Posts: 980
By: Freehand - 17th March 2013 at 13:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We'll see... There is still the financial aspect of the project. The U.S. government isn't in the best position for such ventures.
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 17th March 2013 at 13:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I agree that securing finance for a navy only Fighter project is going to be tough. However, The DOD has shown keen interest in protecting programs it deems strategically important such as the F-35, LRS-B etc It would all depend on how important DOD sees this program. A republican president in 2016 could also change things a lot, since some republicans are hawkish when it comes to high tech weapons.
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 8th April 2013 at 04:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Boeing unveils updated F/A-XX sixth-gen fighter concept
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 8th April 2013 at 05:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Lockheed reveals bold technology plans with 6th-gen fighter concept
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/lockheed-reveals-bold-technol…
Should LMA not study a SUPER-Raptor for such a weapons requirement? It could include a new engine, that should allow it to reach its max speed without AB, increase range etc..You could develop all the changes planned (Some funded others not) for the F-22A fleet and also have USAF foot the bill atleast for system development...A new radar with side arrays, borrow the EOTS/DAS for commonality with the fleet...Brush up on the stealth and borrow some of the tech developed for the F-35...It sounds atleast on paper to be a much less risky proposition that would have a stronger chance of surviving any efforts to thwart it...Perhaps boeing would not be willing to co produce as they were a contractor in the raptor..
By: Anonymous - 8th April 2013 at 05:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I don't think we will see much movement on any 6th Generation Fighter for another several years. As the US doesn't have the resources to start such a project nor do we have a serious threat to support the need for one.
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 8th April 2013 at 05:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It seems all the BIG PLAYERS are responding to the navy's RFP's ...>Beyond this i expect the Navy to take a good amount of time, and sit on them while it tries to figure out what to do next...Any such program should kickstart around 2020-2022 with a 10-12 year development phase...Congressional pressure may cause USN to seriously consider an ALL F-35 fleet post 2030 but i guess it would all depend on WHO is in power circa 2020-2022...
By: Anonymous - 8th April 2013 at 05:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I agree completely.......
Posts: 3,381
By: Rii - 8th April 2013 at 05:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Someone should let Boeing know that canards are incompatible with VLO; they clearly haven't got the memo.
Posts: 6,983
By: obligatory - 8th April 2013 at 06:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Nice low-drag design, they did away with tail altogether
Posts: 2,619
By: topspeed - 8th April 2013 at 06:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This is why I suggest to decrease the size and start real drag reduction studies at all intitutes that have able mathematicians to back it up with striking clever numbers.
:rolleyes:
Posts: 1,299
By: Blitzo - 8th April 2013 at 06:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Better let CAC know as well...
Not to mention Northrop for their NATF proposal and lockheed's JAST study.
Posts: 2,619
By: topspeed - 8th April 2013 at 06:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Isn't it funny lay man logic don't reach the facilities that have only people who know math/advanced calculus !?
Posts: 445
By: Italy - 8th April 2013 at 06:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Lockheed JAST, McDonnel Douglas X-36, etc are not the same as the J-20.
Their canards and wings are not canted.
the J-20's canards are canted at a separate angle from the main wing.
Also.. how many times will boeing change their F/A-XX configuration? this must be the third configuration.
Posts: 1,299
By: Blitzo - 8th April 2013 at 07:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This newest FA-XX revision shows the canards canted dihedrally like the J-20.
And northrop's NATF proposal had their canard on a completely different plane to the main wing.
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 8th April 2013 at 09:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As many times as they want before submitting their plans. I believe with RFP's you could also submit multiple entries..It is not uncommon to have multiple changes to proposal and designs at this stage...
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 8th April 2013 at 09:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The major thrust for funding would not be required at this stage. The USN has to look and sit on the RFP's in order to develop a strategy for the next phase, meanwhile the engine technology required is all ready being developed and tested as we speak in separate programs that are fully funded (Quarter of a billion Development dollars alone in 2012)..
http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2012/September%202012/0912engines.aspx
It has also be widely reported that the avionics for the LRS-B will build on those on the F-22/F-35 so you all ready have a program in place to build up on that technology..Therefore the major PUSH IN FUNDING early on, to get the systems in place may not be required very early on, as those things are taken care off. If launched major funding would probably have to start around 2020-2022 when they start to down select candidates and think about having a fly-off. Uptil that very little money would be required to advance the program in addition to that which has all ready been planned.
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ain-defense-perspective/2012-05-11/us-navy-solicits-concepts-super-hornet-successor
Any news on what Northrop is proposing...They have been quiet on this while Boeing and LMA have come out with their designs..
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 25th April 2013 at 05:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
DARPA working on sixth-generation fighter study
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/darpa-working-on-sixth-generation-fighter-study-385112/
By: Anonymous - 25th April 2013 at 05:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Really, that is wishful thinking in my opinion. As we aren't likely to see any major funding until at least 2020. Then is would take another 15-20 years for Design, Development, Testing, and get it into Production. So, we are really talking about 2040 before any 6th Generation Fighter starts to enter the Fleet. Clearly, the Super Hornet won't be around that long. Which, is why I've said that a number of Super Hornet Squadrons are likely to be replaced by more F-35's.
It's also worth noting that China and Russia are a good decade or more behind the US in Stealth Fighters. So, there is little short-term need to press ahead with a 6th Generation Fighter at this time.
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 25th April 2013 at 09:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The 5th generation time line is around 20 years from RFP stage or approximately 23 years from RFI (where the Fa-xx is at the momeny) The ATF , RFP was issued in 1985 , First prototypes flew in 1990. The FA-xx as per information is at the RFI stage so if the USN decides to pursue it with enthusiasm they should be able to get it into the fleet by around 2032-2035 depending upon how ambitious they are. The JAST--JSF program would also deliver something in the 20-25 year time period from RFI/RFP stage but the JSF is a much bigger development program compared to the ATF/F-22A given the design challenge and conflicting demands. The USAF cheif commented in 2010 that they'd be starting the initial studies around 2011-2012 for a 6th generation fighter...This would mean a similar time line for the USAF replacement program as well since the First raptors would be pushing 25-30 years of age by then. I am sure that F-18E/F's would continue to be replaced by future versions of the F-35 and eventually the FA-xx would be procured in lesser numbers depending upon the threat which exists at that time (How the J20, chinese naval 4.5-5th gen threat materializes etc). Fa-xx may or may not be pursued but there is no doubt in my mind that both the USN and USAF would begin (very soon) work on the 6th generation fighter, as none are contemplating getting out of the FIGHTER force structure...Air Dominance is a pre-requisite to all DOD war doctrines and strategy, and given that there are multiple other 5th generation projects going on throughout the world, the 6th generation guidelines and requirements have to be very aggresivly pursued to maintain a CLEAR edge compared to chinese 5-5.5-6th gen designs in the post 2040 time frame.