Rise of the 6th Generation Fighter ...

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Did i miss something or no mention of European EFCAS?

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Halloweene my freind, We have dedicated threads for the F-35 on this forum ;)

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AEW a/c is also something that could field it now, due to having the raw power and cooling courtesy of the radar requirements already,
with a clear benefit in defense, being a top target and emerging LR SA/AA missiles.

I guess it does have some large aircraft applications providing that it doesn't compromise range. I know their is also a megawatt class laser planned for C-130 variants for ground attack.

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15 years 10 months

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Laser might just be the equalizer ground and sea forces needed to be competitive, a decade or two from now.
Aircraft can't compete with ground/naval forces when it comes to power generation and cooling with no real issues with weight & volume concerns

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Ground forces would struggle - you'd need to bring big massive generators and you don't always have access to good roads.

And you still have weight concerns - ground pressure and all that jazz as well as being able to use roads without tearing them up or cross bridges.

Not to mention the heat signature would attract old fashioned IR weapons like a moth to light.

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n 2009, Directed Energy Systems reached new heights with its scalable building block approach for compact, electric laser weapons when it produced the most powerful light ray created by an electric laser at that time, measured at more than 105 kilowatts (kW) under the U.S. military's Joint High Power Solid State Laser (JHPSSL) program. The achievement included turn-on time of less than one second and continuous operating time of five minutes, with very good efficiency and beam quality.

This achievement was particularly important because the 100kW threshold had been viewed as a proof of principle for 'weapons grade' power levels for high-energy lasers. Many militarily useful effects can be achieved by laser weapons of 25kW or 50 kW, provided this energy is transmitted with good beam quality.

Northrop Grumman's approach leverages compact, 15kW "building blocks" that can be combined readily to meet the mission at hand. "Mission selectable power" doesn't require new physics to build lasers with "scalable" power." The economies of replication make production predictable, and field servicing becomes a matter of plug-and-play.

In 2010, the Army selected JHPSSL to be integrated with the beam control and command and control systems from another Northrop Grumman-built system, the Tactical High Energy Laser (THEL), to provide the Army with the world's first high-power, Solid State Laser Testbed Experiment (SSLTE).

The SSLTE will be used to evaluate the capability of a 100kW-class solid-state laser to accomplish a variety of missions. Those results will be the basis for directing future development of solid-state lasers as a weapon system.

The company has a lead role in integrating and operating the Army's solid-state laser test bed. It brings substantial expertise to this project from many years of experience building and demonstrating tactically-relevant laser systems.

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Northrop Grumman Announces the FIRESTRIKE(tm) Laser, World's First Weaponized Solid-State Laser for U.S. Military Services

http://defenseindustrialbase.blogspot.com/2008/11/northrop-grumman-announces-firestriketm.html

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http://www.army.mil/article/66690/

US Army begins testing monster laser truck that can shoot down anything, including missiles

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2214523/U-S-Army-soon-using-laser-guns-battlefield.html

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Definitely a big piece of kit as expected:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/10/08/article-2214523-15683579000005DC-765_634x450.jpg

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It all depends upon application..A very high powered laser to protect against high priority/capability targets probably does not need to be mobile...there are plenty of fixed installations where you can put such a system ( Something like AEGIS Ashore) such as bases oversees etc...

For more tactical scenarios you have systems like ADAM which are good for rockets etc

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/lockheed/us/products/ADAM/_jcr_content/product_image.img.jpg/1353987946066.jpg

Lockheed Martin’s Area Defense Anti-Munitions (ADAM) system is a laser weapon system that is designed to defeat close-in improvised rocket and unmanned aerial system (UAS) threats. Lockheed Martin based the system on commercial hardware paired with the corporation’s beam control architecture and software to provide the performance needed for these types of threats.

Providing short-range defense of high-value areas including forward operating bases, the ADAM system is designed to track targets at a range of more than 5 kilometers and to destroy targets at a range of up to 2 kilometers.

http://www.gizmag.com/lockheed-martin-adam/27460/

Northrop's HELRAM has a similar application:

Here's THEL Destroying Mortars

When all's said and done the system has to be competitive against (logistical foot print) patriot, THAAD etc for different roles..

HELMD_

http://www.smdc.army.mil/FactSheets/HELMD-TC.pdf

Northrop's paper on LASERS:

http://www.northropgrumman.com/AboutUs/AnalysisCenter/Documents/pdfs/Operational_Implications_of_La.pdf

For Air applications:

The goal of the HELLADS program is to develop a 150 kilowatt (kW) laser weapon system that is ten times smaller and lighter than current lasers of similar power, enabling integration onto tactical aircraft to defend against and defeat ground threats. With a weight goal of less than five kilograms per kilowatt, and volume of three cubic meters for the laser system, HELLADS seeks to enable high-energy lasers to be integrated onto tactical aircraft, significantly increasing engagement ranges compared to ground-based systems.

The program has completed laboratory testing of a fundamental building block for HELLADS, a single laser module that successfully demonstrated the ability to achieve high power and beam quality from a significantly lighter and smaller laser. The program is now in the final development phase where a second laser module will be built and combined with the first module to generate 150 kW of power.

Following the final development phase, the plan is for the laser to be transported to White Sands Missile Range for ground testing against rockets, mortars, surface-to-air missiles and to conduct simulated air-to-ground offensive missions.

So they are aiming for a 150KW product that weighs around 1500 pounds...

http://www.darpa.mil/Our_Work/STO/Programs/High_Energy_Liquid_Laser_Area_Defense_System_%28HELLADS%29.aspx

A smaller laser (Compared to HELLADS) for fighters and smaller UAV's (Although General atomics insists HELLADS will be mountable on their Avenger)..

The goal of the Aero-Adaptive/Aero-Optic Beam Control (ABC) program is to improve the performance of high energy lasers on tactical aircraft against targets in the aft field of regard. This program will optimize flow control strategies for pointing angles in the aft field of regard and will also explore the ability of the flow control system to be synchronized with adaptive optics. This effort will initially focus on wind tunnel testing to prove the feasibility of steady and periodic flow control techniques to reduce or regularize the large scale turbulent structures surrounding an optical turret. These tests will culminate in a hardware-in-the-loop demonstration using flow control with an adaptive optics system in a full-scale wind tunnel test for the turret. Following successful wind tunnel demonstrations, a preliminary design of a flight test turret incorporating flow control will be undertaken.

http://www.darpa.mil/Our_Work/STO/Programs/Aero-Adaptive_Aero-Optic_Beam_Control_%28ABC%29.aspx

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"enabling integration onto tactical aircraft to defend against and defeat ground threats. With a weight goal of less than five kilograms per kilowatt, and volume of three cubic meters "

So to carry this system require an empty slot of 3 m^3, (if carried internally)
and coupled with all other systems that has to work simultaneously require a bare minimum of 300 kW, even taking advances in account.
So something at least the size of Su-34 planned from beginning to accommodate laser, cooling, and generate the power needed, IMO.

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20 years 3 months

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I don't think that they'll develop specific platforms for HELLADS, better to mount it on crafts that already exist...B-1's and C-130's are shown in the illustrations provided by DARPA. General Atomics thinks this can be mounted. Contractors have shown the scalability of the system (15 MW Individual peices put together....as Northrop has shown) so you can possibly scale such a system dependig upon platform and application. The LRS_B and the Secret UCAV (that BS and others keep talking about) may perhaps have given serious design considerations to this...but the only way this system is going to show promise is if it is compatible with larger crafts already operational.

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'Sixth-Gen Engine'

With negotiations of the F135 ongoing, the company is focusing on what the next generation of engines will look like.

“If you look further down the road, we have a great deal of stuff going on,” Croswell said, much of it built around the Adaptive Engine Technology Demonstration (AETD) engine the company has been developing.

“AETD will be the foundation of our sixth-generation fighter engine,” he said. “It will also provide us an opportunity to spin technologies off and back into the F135, to continue to improve it over time.”

The key to that configuration is a three-stream fan, which the company bills as the first in a military engine. Current military engines rely on a two-stream design, with one stream of air moving through the core of the engine and a second bypassing it. Adding a third stream should lead to increased fuel efficiency, as well as a cool stream of air for thermal management.

For the F-35, putting in this new design could give pilots flexibility on how to operate the fighter. The engine could provide capability for extra thrust, or it could reduce the flow to get better fuel economy.

The Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL) began doing tests on the three-stream technology at its Dayton, Ohio, facility this month.

The company is keeping an eye on what requirements could be to power future “sixth-generation” platforms, including eventual replacements for the Navy’s F/A-18 and the Air Force’s F-22.

The Pentagon has “a real desire to reduce fuel consumption,” Croswell said. He highlighted thermal management and the ability to generate extra power as two other priorities for the sixth-generation engine.

The latter is particularly interesting, given the likelihood that a next-generation fighter would contain some form of directed energy weaponry.

“They’re going to need more power for that,” Croswell said.

While developing new engine technologies, Pratt will also deliver the first KC-46 engine, a slightly modified commercial 767 engine, for the tanker replacement program in November.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20131001/DEFREG/310010028

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So to carry this system require an empty slot of 3 m^3, (if carried internally)
and coupled with all other systems that has to work simultaneously require a bare minimum of 300 kW, even taking advances in account.
So something at least the size of Su-34 planned from beginning to accommodate laser, cooling, and generate the power needed, IMO.

Isnt that roughly the size of one internal bay on the F35 if filled completely?

A 2000lbs MK84 has a cross section of ~0,75-0,78sqm and is 3,3m giving ~2,5m^3 if it was a cylinder. And that fits.

The big problem is that in the atmosphere there are particles. These will absorb energy. So the KW on target will be degraded as a function of the quadrant of the range and absorption/air density at the given altitude.

Personally I would love to see lasers being standard but... we have tried it already and the physics just keep staing the same. A missile will keep having better range.

Is there anyone who has the actual formula for the absorption levels of energy in air?

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Range will go up with altitude

Yeah, i figured out that much. But it would be interesting to actually some formula similar to the radar equation.

Could it be that laser intensity at target varies with the square of the difference in air density and that range would depend on the square of the range difference?

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Speaking of power generation... the compressor in Viggen was rated at ca 80KW. And that's just for pumping fuel typ a single engine that was rated at 125KN.

Radar output is 15KW peak (+cooling/heat) + flight controls and other avionics (?KW).

And on top of that we need to power a laser with 50KW output at 20% efficiency --》1000KW psu.

So modern fighters, if carrying DEWs, will need a psu for at least 1200KW (if we use more positive numbers than lukos). And with a future psu of 5kg/KW we are looking at 6000kg dedicated for producing energy.

I think those kind of lasers are for the 6th gen even if the current gen may carry some sort of basic DEW.

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[...]
I think those kind of lasers are for the 6th gen even if the current gen may carry some sort of basic DEW.

No, no no; An electric engine that's what they need. i hve no doubt that after looking at what GE do,j they would be able to make the same (and claiming that they invented it themselves- I know my my Swede well ;) ).

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Isnt that roughly the size of one internal bay on the F35 if filled completely?

A 2000lbs MK84 has a cross section of ~0,75-0,78sqm and is 3,3m giving ~2,5m^3 if it was a cylinder. And that fits.

That math is a bit wrong. jdam based on 2000 lbs mk84 has diameter of some 0.45 m. its wingspan doesnt go over 0.65 m which, when turned 45 degrees to use up as little space as possible, gives us again some 0.45 meter wide box. So basically the space for the bomb will not be over 0.5 meters wide.

0.5 times 0.5 is 0.25 m2 cross section. Internal bay on f35 is, luckily, is a bit over 4 meters long. So the space for that one bomb is going to give roughly one cubic meter of room. Additional amraam space is going to give a bit more still, around 0.13 m2 cross section, times a bit less than four meters. Overall, the whole weapons bay (one oout of total of two) in f35 gives around 1.5 cubic meters of space. Perhaps a bit more, but certainly less than 2 cubic meters.

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No, no no; An electric engine that's what they need. i hve no doubt that after looking at what GE do,j they would be able to make the same (and claiming that they invented it themselves- I know my my Swede well ;) ).

I still haven't seen any small 1MW powerplant. But in time they'll make one that fits in a fighter. Carrying enough energy isn't the problem. The problem is power generation, cooling etc.
That math is a bit wrong. jdam based on 2000 lbs mk84 has diameter of some 0.45 m. its wingspan doesnt go over 0.65 m which, when turned 45 degrees to use up as little space as possible, gives us again some 0.45 meter wide box. So basically the space for the bomb will not be over 0.5 meters wide?

0.5 times 0.5 is 0.25 m2 cross section. Internal bay on f35 is, luckily, is a bit over 4 meters long. So the space for that one bomb is going to give roughly one cubic meter of room. Additional amraam space is going to give a bit more still, around 0.13 m2 cross section, times a bit less than four meters. Overall, the whole weapons bay (one oout of total of two) in f35 gives around 1.5 cubic meters of space. Perhaps a bit more, but certainly less than 2 cubic meters.

when you're right you're right... i just added some wiggle room on the side of the fins.

Either way... the power needed is substantial.

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Northrop Developing 6th Gen Fighter Plans

Northrop Grumman has stood up a pair of teams dedicated to developing a "sixth-generation" fighter for both the Navy and Air Force, years before the US Navy or Air Force intends to issue requests for information on potential replacements for current aircraft.

It's an aggressive move that Tom Vice, president of Northrop's aerospace division, hopes will pay off in a big way for his company.

"Northrop Grumman will compete for the next generation fighter," Vice flatly declared, noting that there is a program manager already leading a team of Northrop staffers on the program.

When asked whether he envisioned Northrop acting as a prime contractor on a future fighter, he added "of course."

Vice's comments were made during a trip to Northrop facilities in California, arranged and paid for by the company.

Both the Air Force and Navy have begun preliminary planning for what is referred to as next-generation air dominance, or "sixth-generation" fighters. After working together on the F-35 joint strike fighter, the two services are looking at procuring their own respective jets.

The Navy's program is dubbed F/A-XX, while the Air Force's effort is known as F-X. In September, Col. Tom Coglitore, Air Superiority Core Function Team chief at Air Combat Command, told Defense News he wants to see Milestone A acquisition activity in early fiscal 2018.

A spokesman for Northrop confirmed that there are individual teams focused on each of the service requirements.
Vice indicated that Northrop is looking at a supersonic, tailless airplane design as a potential solution, something he noted no one has ever done before.

"You don't see any supersonic airplanes today without tails," Vice said. "Why? It's really hard. But if you think about new ways to do advanced computing, very high speed processing, new materials – that's why the research we do is so important, so we can build what could likely be the next-generation fighter in 20 years. It's going to require that kind of technology, because to build that airplane is going to be really, really hard."

He also hinted that making a system optionally manned would be relatively easy for the company.

While Vice may be confident in his program, outside analysts have questioned whether Northrop can survive long-term as an attack airframe manufacturer, especially if it loses out on the Air Force's Long Range Strike-Bomber program.

That program is expected to award a contract to either Northrop or its competitor, a team of Lockheed Martin and Boeing, in late spring or early summer.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/2015/01/21/northrop-6th-gen-fighter/22089857/

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Full ADVENT engine tests meet fuel, heat goals: GE

The US Air Force Research Laboratory has awarded up to $325 million to GE Aviation to continue working on adaptive cycle engine technology as new data emerges from the ADVENT programme.

The latest award announced on 20 January falls under phase three of the nearly 10-year old versatile affordable advanced turbine engines (VAATE) programme, which includes ADVENT.

GE collected more than 100 hours of combined test data from a core rig two years ago and full ADVENT engine last year. The Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL) will complete an assessment of the GE data in February.

GE believes the results of the core and full engine tests show that a follow-on demonstrator engine – the adaptive transfer engine demonstrator (AETD) and a future production engine will meet the US Air Force’s performance goals.

The testing included “multiple stable conversions” from high-bypass to low-bypass operation, GE says. That means no other company has yet achieved a “successful demonstration of an adaptive cycle engine”, GE adds.

In a normal turbofan engine, a small amount of air enters the core and is mixed with fuel for combustion, while another, larger stream of air flows around the core and generates thrust more efficiently. An adaptive turbofan adds another channel of bypass air, which is opened during cruise and closed during take-off or to accelerate quickly.

That third stream of air can improve the range of a platform by 35%, GE says.

The core and full rig tests also validated another benefit of using a third stream. A stealth aircraft, such as the Lockheed Martin F-35, cools electronics bays by channeling heat into the bypass duct. An adaptive cycle engine raises the capacity of the bypass air to serve as a heat sink. The additional air stream reduced bypass duct temperatures by about 65°C in the test engine compared to the F136 engine developed for the F-35, GE confirms.

The ADVENT programme also helped GE collect data on how new engine materials, such as ceramic matrix composites (CMCs), perform at extremely high temperatures.

GE is using CMCs to replace largely nickel-based alloys in the hottest sections of military and commercial turbine engines.

The ADVENT engine featured CMCs on the leading edge of the high-pressure turbine nozzle, where gases released from the combustor flow into the rotating turbine section.

The leading edge of the turbine nozzle was exposed to temperatures hotter than 1,650°C (3,000°F) – or hundreds of degrees hotter than the melting point of nichel-based materials – during the tests, but survived, GE says.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/full-advent-engine-tests-meet-fuel-heat-goals-ge-408182/