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By: - 26th July 2011 at 21:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Leap-X won't be ready in time.
By: - 26th July 2011 at 22:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hmmm.... CFM are looking at 2014 for certification; so yeah, no test engines for 2013.
Still, if I was in charge of the program (and had to use a turbofan), I'd get the GTF or stretch the design phase that extra year or 2 (ironically of course, they'll probably end up using those 2 years in design delays anyway!).
I find it a puzzling decision by Embraer, who have historically been very on the ball. No doubt there is a very good logical reason* for it, I just haven't found it yet.
*I don't know if a year or 2 delay would be the reason, or at least the sole reason. Are Brazil etc really pushing for an early IOC for the -390? :confused: (That might explain why they are reluctant to wait)
By: - 27th July 2011 at 00:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yeah, I found it strange as well... Sure, you can say mature engine available immediately for flight tests...
But I`m sure CFM could get a suitable rig with Leap-X interface to avionics but mature/last-gen parts (where new parts aren`t ready yet).
It`s not like it needs to be certifiable immediately...
And what other new engine is right now involved in flight testing... Hm... Europrop?
That`s got just about the fastest flight speeds around for a turbo-prop, and all the normal t-p advantages.
Would just about instantly find a customer base for C-390 with a shared engine with A400M. :confused:
By: - 27th July 2011 at 12:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Embraer took the decision to build a jet rather than a turboprop for reasons which remain true. Whether it's the right decision is another argument than which jet engine should be used.
I suspect that Embraer wants an engine which is mature for reasons other than just availability for testing. KC-390 is meant to be easy & cheap to buy & operate. A large installed customer base for the engine helps with that. A few percent saving on fuel consumption in airliner flight profiles is very important to passenger airlines, but less crucial to the military, & to freight operators flying into austere fields in obscure corners of the world. That could be part of the reasoning.
Commonality with the A400M is only useful for anyone who also buys A400M, or can operate a common maintenance pool with an A400M operator. That probably won't apply to most KC-390 customers. Commonality with airline engines is likely to be of more value to them.
By: - 31st July 2011 at 01:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi guys!
Swerve's hit the nail on the head here. Embarer studied dozens of possible configurations befor setling on the current published one. One insider told me that the choice for the turbofan over the turboprop was a simple one and in the end this was validated by the amount of problems that the TP400 (the only appropriately sized turboprop not from russian/soviet origin) showed in the A400M's testing cycle.
This source also indicated that the faster cruising speed of the jet powered version actually translated in a significant faster turn-around time in the expected military operational profile expected for the new tactical lifter. Thus a smaller number of smaller aircraft might end up carrying the same cargo tonnage of a larger slower transport in less time (exempting, naturaly , outsized items that are just too big for the KC390).
The Brazilian Air Force required a 19ton payload similar to the Hercules, but in the end the empty weight of the KC390 proved to be lighter then expected allowing it to carry up to 23 tons over the same range initially expected for the aircraft carrying 19 tons, a major performance boost!
Embraer sources have also told me that the TP400 is a monstrously complex and expensive engine and that is bound to scare off non-industrial potential export buyers, thus explaining the choice for a more "plain vanilla" engine for the KC390 such as the IAE V2500. IAE has lost their mealticket with the arrival of the new A320 Neos and I asume should be desperate to find out some other programa to keep the production lines runing. Being a "proven design" it surely allows IAE to fund the configuration and customisation costs lowering the development costs for Embraer and for the Brazilian AF, not a bad pick at all.
One major concern in Brazil and in many other prospective clients is the risk of US parts embargos if the political environment of the client does not suit US foreign Policy objectives. By using a widely available civilian engine it should make it quite the more simpler for an "embargoed" air force to source these components, maybe from their own national airline's stock of parts (if they operate A321, of course!).
Still on this "EMBARGOABILITY" issue the IAE engine was the least US origined components when compared to the CFM56 that was the other competitor in this particular case.
Does Embraer's decision make more sense to you now? ;)
Regards,
Hammer
Embraer took the decision to build a jet rather than a turboprop for reasons which remain true. Whether it's the right decision is another argument than which jet engine should be used.I suspect that Embraer wants an engine which is mature for reasons other than just availability for testing. KC-390 is meant to be easy & cheap to buy & operate. A large installed customer base for the engine helps with that. A few percent saving on fuel consumption in airliner flight profiles is very important to passenger airlines, but less crucial to the military, & to freight operators flying into austere fields in obscure corners of the world. That could be part of the reasoning.
Commonality with the A400M is only useful for anyone who also buys A400M, or can operate a common maintenance pool with an A400M operator. That probably won't apply to most KC-390 customers. Commonality with airline engines is likely to be of more value to them.
By: - 31st July 2011 at 02:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Indeed Swerve has got it, whilst Embraer is building a military transport they are lowering risk by going for civil aerospace components and levering experience from their airline program . They had already chosen the Rockwell Collins Proline fusion avionics suite, the IAE V2500 is a common and reliable civil engine with over 4000 produced and another 2000 on the order books. Looks like the manufacturer was more prepared to do a better deal then CFM. All in all this is working out to be a very interesting aircraft and a very real threat to future C130J sales.
By: - 31st July 2011 at 10:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Found this on mp.net...
By: - 31st July 2011 at 11:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
... whilst Embraer is building a military transport they are lowering risk by going for civil aerospace components and levering experience from their airline program . They had already chosen the Rockwell Collins Proline fusion avionics suite, ..... All in all this is working out to be a very interesting aircraft and a very real threat to future C130J sales.
I recently read (in Flight, IIRC) a report on the selection of the avionics suite, in which a senior Embraer executive stated that although of US origin, it was ITAR-free - and that was part of the reason for its selection. Embraer is very serious about making the KC-390 embargo-proof.
Agreed on the threat to the C-130J. It also provides an affordable solution to AAR needs for smaller air forces, which reminds me, do we know if the supplier of AAR kit has been selected yet? I presume one of Cobham & Bedek.
By: - 31st July 2011 at 11:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Does Embraer's decision make more sense to you now? ;)
Yes... and no.
The V2500 has a massive install base... now.
What is the expected lifetime of the aircraft? 30 years? 40 years? I wouldn't anticipate too many civilian V2500s then. Whereas I'd have thought the new gen engines would have a good install base.
Of course, individual operators can stock up parts in the meantime, and over the next 20 years (which prob Embraer are more focussed on from a marketing perspective), V2500 parts should be dirt cheap and easy to source.
Yep, makes sense - at least over the short/medium term. The export thing makes sense full stop. The Yanks might not like me for saying it, but their politicians can appear very fickle and not at all dependable.
By: - 31st July 2011 at 11:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
V2500 is still selling in large numbers. The non-neo A320 still has a huge backlog, as well as thousands in service. That user base is going to be there for at least 20 years, with considerable scope for cannibalisation once it starts to decline.
When the declining civilian V2500 base starts to become an issue, Embraer can consider re-engining, but that won't be for many years.
By: - 31st July 2011 at 23:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
When the declining civilian V2500 base starts to become an issue, Embraer can consider re-engining, but that won't be for many years.
A major positive for under-wing engine pods.
See the KC-135... started with Pratt & Whitney J-57-P-59W turbojet engines, and in the 1980s 157 had those replaced with Pratt & Whitney TF-33-PW-102 engines (turbofan developed with a J57 core) from 707 airliners retired in the late 1970s and early 1980s (KC-135E).
In the 1990s, more KC-135As got new CFM International CFM56 (military designation: F108) turbofan engines (KC-135R).
By: - 3rd August 2011 at 10:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Interesting point raised in the latest JDW.
The V2500 has Japanese participation. It's never been sold for military applications before. There's been no reaction from Japan to its selection for KC-390. Is this a gentle relaxation of the export ban?
By: - 4th August 2011 at 03:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Buyers?
Sorry to interrupt the engine discussion. But which countries are seriously looking at this?
If I look at that graphic, I'm thinking South Africa yes... but France and Portugal... no way. I'm not sure about the others.
So is there any news that indicates a prospective buyers besides Brazil?
By: - 4th August 2011 at 04:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Part of the proposed Rafale-for-Brazil deal was French purchase of KC-390 (or at least financial involvement in the program).
By: - 4th August 2011 at 04:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sorry to interrupt the engine discussion. But which countries are seriously looking at this?If I look at that graphic, I'm thinking South Africa yes... but France and Portugal... no way. I'm not sure about the others.
So is there any news that indicates a prospective buyers besides Brazil?
milavia, same here. In regards to France I actually can see it as part of a package deals, Brazil license-builds French submarines and fighters and France buys a couple KC-390. But Portugal? Over the years, since the first talks over the replacement of the C-212 and C-130 fleets and the selection of the C-295, I have been talking to personnel and reading articles about the subject. So in terms of the strategy that was established for both logistical and tactical transport and the existence of the C-295 the KC-390 doesn't make much sense. The adding of this new aircraft to the logistical chain doesn't bring much advantage over buying a couple of extra C-295 and contributing and using a NATO transport aircraft pool or even buying the A400. But now that EMBRAER is very active in OGMA and has been talking, and talking, about manufacturing the aircraft in Portugal every minister (be it PM, Foreign Affairs, Economy or Defense) talk about participating in this program. But since they always are talking about stuff like this (like they talked with the A400M program) I'm not so sure. Meanwhile, the upgrade for the current C-130 has been on hold for the last years , and will continue, due the crisis. Good luck buying new transport aircraft, especially aircraft that isn't German or French made, since it's there from where the money comes from (EU).
Best regards,
By: - 4th August 2011 at 20:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sorry to interrupt the engine discussion. But which countries are seriously looking at this?If I look at that graphic, I'm thinking South Africa yes... but France and Portugal... no way. I'm not sure about the others.
So is there any news that indicates a prospective buyers besides Brazil?
Argentina is keen to replace its entire C-130 fleet (including KC-130) with KC-390, & has signed up for work share, & a letter of intent for an initial six aircraft.
Chile would like six, and has signed up for work share.
Colombia & the Czech Republic have signed declarations of intent to buy, for 12 & two, respectively. The Czechs have secured a share of the work.
South Africa is a good prospect, since it cancelled its planned A400M purchase. It has a good defence-industrial relationship with Brazil, firms hungry for work on aircraft, & is very ITAR-wary.
By: - 5th August 2011 at 02:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi guys.
There are today firm commitments for a total of 60 KC-390s: 28 from Brazil, 12 from Colombia, 6 from Chile, 6 from Portugal, 6 from Argentina and two from the Czech Republic.
These first deals are Government to Government deals focussed mainly on developing these nation's aerospace sectors. The aircraft purchase is the entry token into this industrial program at this early stage. Embraer execs have said that the KC-390 specification is a exclusive Brazilian Air Force issue, all these other nations have agreed to buy the aircraft in the configuration decided upon by the Brazilian Air Force. All these companies have to fund themselves their share of the development, but in the end they will able collect royalties on every aircraft sold and delivered. If the deal was between the respective airforces and Embraer, there would be a much larger possibility of cancellations, on a Gov2Gov it gets much mor complicated to change your mind. Both France and Sweden have suggested in the Brazilian press they might buy a number of KC390s as an offset response to Brazil buying the Rafale or the Gripen as its next gen fighter.
Several rumours indicated that Dassault would be a major participant but as the contracts started being dished out by Embraer in the last months there is absolutely no sign of any Rafale-related corporation in the program...
The first prototype (of only two ordered) is scheduled to fly in two year's time with Brazilian military certification hapening almost two years after that.
So if any of these countries does not find the money to fund their industries they'll loose a great developmente opportunity for them.
Comments?
Regards,
Hammer
By: - 5th August 2011 at 09:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Does Embraer's decision make more sense to you now? ;)Regards,
Hammer
Super sense, glad some people in S. America have their hearts and heads in the right place. There is a buzz on the forums that Pakistan may be interested. Hope that materializes.
Edit: Addition:
Comments?
I think this is the first real industrial cooperation among the global South after the Pakistan-China JF-17 cooperative program. This is exactly the way to go forward as opposed to buying multi-billion dollar weapons from Old Europe or the Fascists north of your country. I'm very happy for Brazil and this news has really made my day.
By: - 5th August 2011 at 12:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It should also be noted that Embraer is aiming this aircraft at the civilian market as well. The choice of civil avionics and engines make it far easier to market to transport companies, considering there is a fair few increasingly elderly Lockheed L-100 as well as an even larger number of various Russian transports like the AN-12 still flying the KC-390 has a strong market there.
By: - 5th August 2011 at 18:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Fedaykin, I'm under the impression that Embraer,s idea for a civilian transport derivative goes WAY beyond replacing L-100s and vintage Russian cargo planes. From what I gather they would like to turn this into the standard aircraft for FedEx, DHL and other of the like. Do the math: there is probably a larger market here than in the military role!
Coments?
Hammer
Posts: 2,163
By: Amiga500 - 26th July 2011 at 20:47
Strange decision to go with IAE V2500
Flight global
They are talking about making a stretch version for civilian cargo.
Surely better to go with a GTF or Leap-X from the outset...?
Or are there export reasons? PW are already part of IAE, so I don't know if there would be any appreciable differences.
[Well, really IMO it should have been propfan based, there will be very few cargo operators able to turn their nose up at a 20% fuel saving...]