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By: - 6th October 2009 at 15:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It doesn’t sound that strange an arrangement to me.
I was told years ago by somebody who worked in the industry that the braking systems fitted to some airliners was supplied free-of-charge and that the companies that supplied them made their money from supplying consumables and spare parts for the next thirty years of service.
Not sure about wartime production (where there was a fair chance on Rolls-Royce losing ‘their’ Merlins!) but it sounds like a ‘through-life’ contract could have been entered into between Roll-Royce and the MOD to cover current Merlin engines.
By: - 6th October 2009 at 19:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Private owners can do what they like with their Merlins as long as they or their rebuild/maintenance people have the necessary approvals.
I believe Retro Track and Air overhaul BBMF Merlins (other rebuild shops are available.....) and I would have thought the engineers assigned to the flight wield spanners around from time to time.
By: - 6th October 2009 at 19:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Embodiment Loan
I've seen the term Embodiment Loan applied to several F-4 Phantom components over the years. What is this, is it the same as the Rolls-Royce arrangement?
Anon.
By: - 6th October 2009 at 21:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not really.
This refers to Items belonging to the MoD and sent to contractors for embodiment of modifications. These would all be booked in and out as embodiment loan items.
By: - 7th October 2009 at 15:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Military engines have always, at least since the beginning of WW2, been made on a "cost plus" basis, ie the cost to the Air Ministry was the actual cost of making the engine plus the profit required by Rolls-Royce, say 20% perhaps.
There is a famous photograph which used to hang in the Boardroom at Nightingale Road showing Lord Beaverbrook? handing a cheque for £1m to Lord Hives of Rolls-Royce.
So the answer is that they were purchased by the Air Ministry.
Nowadays the civil engines are leased to the operator and therefore remain the property of R-R, or a leasing company, perhaps that is where this story originates from?
As far as I am aware there is no "shelf life" as such on components.
There is a difference between Merlins and Griffons because the post-war Griffon had quite a few "lifed" components which have to be changed after so many running hours regardless of condition, whereas on the Merlin most parts can be inspected for re-use.
Pete
By: - 7th October 2009 at 16:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not really.This refers to Items belonging to the MoD and sent to contractors for embodiment of modifications. These would all be booked in and out as embodiment loan items.
I'm not convinced about that. My understanding was that engines, guns etc. were supplied FOC to the aircraft manufacturers, as embodiment loan items, to be embodied in aircraft. When the completed aeroplane was signed off to the Air Ministry, the loan items were booked as returned.
I assume it was done so the manufacturers didn't have to finance the parts, and probably equally important, didn't put a mark-up on them.
By: - 7th October 2009 at 16:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm not convinced about that. My understanding was that engines, guns etc. were supplied FOC to the aircraft manufacturers, as embodiment loan items, to be embodied in aircraft. When the completed aeroplane was signed off to the Air Ministry, the loan items were booked as returned.I assume it was done so the manufacturers didn't have to finance the parts, and probably equally important, didn't put a mark-up on them.
That is the correct definition of an Embodiment Loan. where the part (in this case) is embodied in to the aircraft.
Cheers,
FC
By: - 7th October 2009 at 19:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Nowadays the civil engines are leased to the operator and therefore remain the property of R-R, or a leasing company, perhaps that is where this story originates from?
Sorry Pete, this is not correct either. Rolls-Royce often contracts with customers to provide long term services, such as overhauls, but the engines are not owned by Rolls-Royce, but by the operator or financer of the aircraft.
I don't believe Rolls-Royce has the ability to perfrom airworthy restorations of Merlins any more (maybe from a liability point of view, the company has taken the decision?) The last Merlin's I know of that were reworked were for the prototype Mosquito, one of which was bench run, but these were doner by the Rolls-Royce Heritage Trust, not the company itself.
I'm 99% sure this is right, but stand to be corrected if anyone know better?
Hope this helps.
By: - 7th October 2009 at 20:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Interesting, years ago a group I was in was offered a Wessex by someone within the MoD, however after a while the deal was refused because it was determined that the BS/RR Gnome engines actually still belonged to the manufacturer.
I remember seeing Griffons being serviced by 8 Sqn at Lossiemouth, unsure wether they were RAF techies or RR CWP though?
On my recent quest for bang seats, through official channels, it seems that all in service (and some life exed) ejection seats are owned by Martin Baker, and that they always remain responsible for maintaining them in servicable (ie flyable in MoD aircraft) until disposal.
By: - 7th October 2009 at 20:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I don't believe Rolls-Royce has the ability to perfrom airworthy restorations of Merlins any more (maybe from a liability point of view, the company has taken the decision?) The last Merlin's I know of that were reworked were for the prototype Mosquito, one of which was bench run, but these were doner by the Rolls-Royce Heritage Trust, not the company itself.I would say (and this is my personal understanding) is that they have distanced themselves from the modern day operation of heritage engines such as the Merlin and Griffon, largely from a liability point of view rather then an 'ability' issue.I'm 99% sure this is right, but stand to be corrected if anyone know better?
Hope this helps.
After the Spitfire PL983 accident in France it was suggested by AAIB (in their official report) that the 'manufacturer' (ie: Rolls Royce) should be more pro-active in advising operators of service and operational issues concerning the older piston engines but I am not certain that there was a significant change in their policy as a result of this.
On the subject of ownership, the Merlins bolted in to the average privately owned Spitfire you might see at an airshow are most certainly owned by the aircraft owner and I think many would be horrified if you were to suggest that they dont actually own them!
By: - 7th October 2009 at 20:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
According to Tony Pay "The Lancaster and the Merlin" Britain at War Magazine October 2008.
All Merlins during and after the war were owned by Rolls Royce and leased to the air force including all those made by Ford at Manchester. Each Merlin is lifed at 5 years on the self is unused, or 500 running hours. Each engine is returned to RR when either of these two markers is reached. When returned the engine is dismantled and rebuilt as new.
NB That was the arrangement with HMG. Other parties may have had a different arrangement including purchasing them.
By: - 7th October 2009 at 20:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
According to Tony Pay "The Lancaster and the Merlin" Britain at War Magazine October 2008.
Thanks antoni, that's where I think I read that snippet, I will dig mine out if I can find it.
Brian.
By: - 8th October 2009 at 10:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If Tony Pay wrote that he would have been wrong.
The first UK Prime Contractorship deal was offered by Healey/declined by GR Edwards for TSR.2. The first UK "all up" procurement was HS Hawk, where HSAL ordered the Adour, embraced within the "all up" fixed price for development and supply of 175. The first UK "cardinal points" procurement was 1996 helicopter training by Bristow Rotorcraft/SERCO/Flight Refuelling: CO-CO (Contractor-Owned, Contractor-Operated) for X ready hours p.m. Soon after, Life Support deals started to be done, where the Contractor was solely in charge of repair-or-replace decisions, life extension mods. and such. A330K will be hours-on-lease, hardware Contractor-owned. Those deals may have caused confusion.
Before all this, Air Ministry (then MAP/MoS/MoA) applied WO/Admiralty practice of confining the platform purveyor to the knitting he claimed to command - the exterior tin - and took direct contractual responsibility for stuff inside. That (as FC says) was Embodiment Loan, free-issue to the (today's name: integrator). Avoiding Prime's handling charge was a factor, but the pacemaker was mutual incomprehension, vendor/integrator: airframes are "under-powered" (airframe man) or "over-weight" (engine man).
The deal in WW1 and 2 was that the Design Authority was required, as Supervisor, to assist the State Buyer to second-source and was paid a fee: e.g HP took £225 per Halifax from London Bus. RR was thus required to put Ford, Packard, MAP's Agency Factories Crewe and Hamilton into a position where their Merlins met AID Quality. All product was owned by the Buyer - you and me. In Service Support was handled as the Buyer saw fit. Alvis was contracted by MAP to make parts and repair Merlin; so were Sunbeam-Talbot, DH Engine Co.Ltd., Stag Lane, and Napier, Acton. Such (today's name: MRO) specialists as Field's and Marshall's held sufficient AID Repair Scheme Design Approvals that they could scavenge and forage to de-bend, cobble and scab anything, anywhere.
The original Design Authority loses appetite after awhile and moves on. RR nominated Scottish Aviation as Merlin Repair Authority (c.1960), and they passed that on later (IIRC, an outfit in Guernsey). The Airworthiness Authority (DPA for today's RAF, EASA for today's Euro-civil) needs an Approved Firm to hold Continuing Airworthiness responsibility for anything that trundles over my head. So the outfit now in trouble at Duxford (called DH but holding others too), must pass on that baton, or all those types must cease flying. Engines, same. There is no absolute about X hours: it all depends...but the decision-maker is very seldom the Operator.
Not just Aero: when HSAL bought Blackburn they rapidly unloaded its Design Authority function on...Javelin. Jowett, not Gloster. Taken on when Jowett expired while Mr.Blackburn owned one.
By: - 8th October 2009 at 11:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
alertken,
Just to clarify - de Havilland Support at Duxford are not, to the best of my knowledge, in trouble. de Havilland Aviation at Bournemouth, it has been reported, are....
Bruce
By: - 8th October 2009 at 11:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A fascinating insight alertken. It explains why Jersey Aviation was a Merlin specialist. I don't think they're trading any more, they left my radar sometime around the carburettor set-up issue on Mosquito RR299 (the two not necessarily related to each other).
By: - 8th October 2009 at 12:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That's interesting aletken.
I have attached a scan from the "Britain At War" magazine for your info. (please advise if copyright breached)
The second question has been answered but the first has not been!
Thanks.
Brian.
By: - 8th October 2009 at 14:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It's just flat wrong. He's confused Repair/Airworthiness Authority with title. Do the sums. RR was near-bankrupt 1935; market capital investment in Aero was brief, 1935-38, and had normal City yield ambition. Thereafter, it came almost wholly from the State. Where would £ have come from to cause little RR to own 168,040 engines @, what, £2,000 each?
By: - 8th October 2009 at 17:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
He is completely mistaken I`m afraid.
They were purchased by the A.M.
The other bit about Ford-built engines is also complete tosh. Most single-stage Merlins that were still in service after the war were originally built by Ford, even the ones that R-R rebuilt into Merlin 500s with new engine numbers. If they had wanted to do away with Ford engines they would not have used them as the basis for the 500 series.
Don`t believe everything you read in mags / books.
Pete
By: - 8th October 2009 at 17:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Some parts for the Halifax cockpit I have such as the ignition switches and the cages they are fitted have the word "embod" written on them, so does this also refer to embodied parts?
Cees
By: - 8th October 2009 at 18:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Weren't Merlins (and other items) sold by the MOD/RAF as surplus after the war?
Weren't Spitfires and other types sold to other countries...
If so, how could the MOD/RAF (or anyone else) sell something they didn't own?
Posts: 872
By: pimpernel - 6th October 2009 at 14:58
I had read somewhere that the RAF does not own, or never has owned a RR Merlin engine.
These have always been the ownership of Rolls Royce by all accounts.
I think there is a shelf life of so many years or if an expired running time is reached then they are sent back to RR for servicing etc.
A couple of questions.
Was it only Merlin's that it applied to or did it include the Griffon's too?
Does this apply to private owners or can they have them serviced by anyone?
Just curious.
Brian.