By: J Boyle
- 28th November 2008 at 14:43Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Here's another favorite uncommon transport...the prototype Cessna 620.
It was a brave attempt to produce an all new business aircraft.
That was something fairly rare in the 50s when it was cheaper to buy a used DC-3, converted A-26, or modified Lockheed like the Learstar (and other conversions) or a slightly used...or even new...Convair 240/340/440.
It had a six foot cabin, something that many bizjets wouldn't have for a long time.
They built it, THEN did a cost and market analysis. It's price (a reported $300-400,000) was too high for the market to bear.
By: battle_damaged
- 28th November 2008 at 20:51Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi JB,
A brave attempt indeed, and not a bad looker. But may I put that price tag in perspective?
In 1954, according to Time magazine, bolstered by a large order from Canada for 640 Cranes (T-50), Dwane L. Wallace, 28, president of Cessna and nephew of its founder, Clyde Cessna, announced a new line of 'big civilian planes, helicopters and light military jets'. It was referring to the 620, the 310, the CH-1 helicopter and the T-37 trainer.
The description of the 620 was: 'A four-engined Cessna 620 executive transport, to give flying executives the big-plane comfort, safety and speed they expect at the economy prices they like to pay. With four 320-h.p. Continental engines, Cessna's 620 will carry nine passengers (plus pilot and copilot), cruise at 235 m.p.h. for 1,300 miles, and climb to an altitude of 30,000 ft. Estimated price: about $300,000 v. up to $400,000 for a converted World War II bomber'.
It's the 'v' that seems to have been overlooked, easy to do, whereas he was comparing the price of the 620 being 100,000 less than that of a converted WWII bomber.
It's a pity it wasn't saved for future generations to see, but we know how successful the 310 and T-37 turned out to be!
By: longshot
- 28th November 2008 at 23:18Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Cessna 620
Was the Cessna 620 designed by the same team as the 310, led I believe by Steve Wittman ?....( he also designed the Cessna spring-steel undercarriage used on the single engine types)
By: J Boyle
- 29th November 2008 at 04:25Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Was the Cessna 620 designed by the same team as the 310, led I believe by Steve Wittman ?....( he also designed the Cessna spring-steel undercarriage used on the single engine types)
In Cessna Engineer/test pilot William D. Thompson's excellent book Cessna Wings for the World II, Whitman's name does not appear as part of the project 620 group, nor in his discussion of the design or test of the 310. I think by that time, Whitman was in Oskhosh.
Something interesting does get mentioned, that Ted Smith (later of Aerostar fame) suggested that Cessna buy his Aero Commander design which was then in production in Oklahoma. Cessna turned down the offer, preferring a lighter, faster light twin, and one more suited to Cessna production methods (they thought the Aero Commander was too "military" in design and with too many parts).
Since we're on the topic of Cessna...though hardly "less common" in many ways the 310 set the standards for "light" twins...being in a different class than the lighter, lower performing Piper Apache, and smaller lighter than the AeroCommander, or Beech's Twin Bonanza (which is a big airplane).
Mention should also be made of the 310s predessor, the Cessna T-50.
After war use, many surplus Cranes,/AT-17s/UC-78s were convertted not only for private use, but also to equip many of the new "feeder lines" abd charter services popping up across the US and Canada.
Here they are in TV's "Sky King" markings.
By: longshot
- 1st December 2008 at 00:22Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Less Common C-124 variants
The YC-124B was a prototype for a T34 turboprop powered tanker which wasnt ordered. note the dihedral tailplane ,,,,wonder how fast it was? The JC-124C was a test bed for the nose-mounted massive XT57 turboprop which was to power the cancelled C-132 transport....was there a photo of it flying just on the test engine.....Illustrations and info from Rene J Francillon's Putnam 'McDonnell Douglas Aircraft Vol I'
Was there also a batch of C-124s with door alterations to carry missiles?
By: longshot
- 1st December 2008 at 00:26Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Britten Norman Stretch Islander
Saw this early summer 1970 at Bembridge, this didn't go into production , but was later chopped around and converted to the prototype Trislander ready for the Farnborough show in September 1970
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Posts: 2,101
By: old shape
- 1st December 2008 at 00:44Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Fortunately 'less common'!! :)....up there with the Farman Jabiru for looks in my eye![/QUOTE]
Is that good then, Longshot...?;) Should have seen the ATT land on the river here two years ago, cor..!
On the C-124, JB shows us a nice model. Thanks for that. Could have been your Dad who gave us the rides...!
Wikipedia likens it to the poor old Princess, so here we go...
By: battle_damaged
- 1st December 2008 at 17:10Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
One of the C-124s we got a ride on at Blackbushe was 0-15207 (51-5207) on 3 October 59.
My notes say that it belonged to the 14 TCS of the 322 Air Division.
Such visits were generally organised by Arthur Pearcy and his wife Audrey, both of whom worked there, Arthur in the twr, Audrey at AIS. That was also the only time I have seen Sir Douglas Bader, who had arrived in the Gemini.
Here's a lesser-known transport, some of which I understand have just been ordered:
By: longshot
- 5th December 2008 at 00:21Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Beriev 200 amphibian
Imagine catching that from Gatwick to your Black Sea holiday resort. Reminds me a little of the Martin P6M Seamaster (below) which unfortunately wasnt a Transport type! (USN photo from Wikipedia....Seamaster)
By: longshot
- 5th December 2008 at 23:39Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Can't do you a Seamaster, Longshot, but here's the next best thing, taken by Bob Ruffle at Blackbushe on 4 September 1957...
The Dutch Mariners were Patrol bombers but the USN had them as transports ,too ....in this Life.com shot contract operated by an airline in WWII?...in the South Pacific somewhere
By: longshot
- 7th December 2008 at 00:07Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Beech 18....SNB....C-45...Expeditor....less common versions
Somewhat smaller, our very own Blackbushe-based SNB-5 BuAer 51105, also courtesy Bob Ruffle:
I've scratched around for a less-common version ,best I can find is N445DM, converted to a tri-tail Dumod Liner as in the abpic photo then reportedly stretched another 75 inches? in the Gary Chambers photo on airliners.net
By: longshot
- 7th December 2008 at 00:36Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Martin 202 original tail shape
A post-war 'DC-3 replacement'....think the 202 was unpressurized,,,,had to have a much larger dorsal fin fitted, and more dihedral outboard of the engines by the look of it
By: battle_damaged
- 10th December 2008 at 18:28Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Somewhat smaller, our very own Blackbushe-based SNB-5 BuAer 51105, also courtesy Bob Ruffle:
I should have mentioned, of course, that it was pre-1960....not terday.
Here's one that did a round-the-world during the 1987 Paris Air Show. On board were Patrick Fourticq, Henri Pescaroloo, Hubert Auriol, and Art Powell.
They wanted to beat Howard Hughes' rtw record, which I believe they did. (they were in the 18, Hughes in a 14)
By: battle_damaged
- 10th December 2008 at 18:33Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
...or how about this one, same year (1987). Wonder if it's been seen since (in service, I mean). Wonder what the Y in Y-12 stands for....YingTong perhaps...;)
By: longshot
- 11th December 2008 at 00:30Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I should have mentioned, of course, that it was pre-1960....not terday.
Here's one that did a round-the-world during the 1987 Paris Air Show. On board were Patrick Fourticq, Henri Pescaroloo, Hubert Auriol, and Art Powell.
They wanted to beat Howard Hughes' rtw record, which I believe they did. (they were in the 18, Hughes in a 14)
I figured it was a real SNB rather than a modern-day retro warbird...I probably saw it at the 'Bushe
Hughes was originally going to use the DC-1 which he owned but sold it instead to Lord Forbes....didn't know his L14 fight had been 'replicated'
Attached a Howard 500 (Ventura conversion) taxying past my workplace around 1974...rare...ish!
Posts: 9,871
By: J Boyle - 28th November 2008 at 14:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Here's another favorite uncommon transport...the prototype Cessna 620.
It was a brave attempt to produce an all new business aircraft.
That was something fairly rare in the 50s when it was cheaper to buy a used DC-3, converted A-26, or modified Lockheed like the Learstar (and other conversions) or a slightly used...or even new...Convair 240/340/440.
It had a six foot cabin, something that many bizjets wouldn't have for a long time.
They built it, THEN did a cost and market analysis. It's price (a reported $300-400,000) was too high for the market to bear.
Posts: 178
By: battle_damaged - 28th November 2008 at 20:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi JB,
A brave attempt indeed, and not a bad looker. But may I put that price tag in perspective?
In 1954, according to Time magazine, bolstered by a large order from Canada for 640 Cranes (T-50), Dwane L. Wallace, 28, president of Cessna and nephew of its founder, Clyde Cessna, announced a new line of 'big civilian planes, helicopters and light military jets'. It was referring to the 620, the 310, the CH-1 helicopter and the T-37 trainer.
The description of the 620 was: 'A four-engined Cessna 620 executive transport, to give flying executives the big-plane comfort, safety and speed they expect at the economy prices they like to pay. With four 320-h.p. Continental engines, Cessna's 620 will carry nine passengers (plus pilot and copilot), cruise at 235 m.p.h. for 1,300 miles, and climb to an altitude of 30,000 ft. Estimated price: about $300,000 v. up to $400,000 for a converted World War II bomber'.
It's the 'v' that seems to have been overlooked, easy to do, whereas he was comparing the price of the 620 being 100,000 less than that of a converted WWII bomber.
It's a pity it wasn't saved for future generations to see, but we know how successful the 310 and T-37 turned out to be!
brgds
Alan
Posts: 1,707
By: longshot - 28th November 2008 at 23:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Cessna 620
Was the Cessna 620 designed by the same team as the 310, led I believe by Steve Wittman ?....( he also designed the Cessna spring-steel undercarriage used on the single engine types)
Posts: 9,871
By: J Boyle - 29th November 2008 at 04:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In Cessna Engineer/test pilot William D. Thompson's excellent book
Cessna Wings for the World II, Whitman's name does not appear as part of the project 620 group, nor in his discussion of the design or test of the 310. I think by that time, Whitman was in Oskhosh.
Something interesting does get mentioned, that Ted Smith (later of Aerostar fame) suggested that Cessna buy his Aero Commander design which was then in production in Oklahoma. Cessna turned down the offer, preferring a lighter, faster light twin, and one more suited to Cessna production methods (they thought the Aero Commander was too "military" in design and with too many parts).
Since we're on the topic of Cessna...though hardly "less common" in many ways the 310 set the standards for "light" twins...being in a different class than the lighter, lower performing Piper Apache, and smaller lighter than the AeroCommander, or Beech's Twin Bonanza (which is a big airplane).
Mention should also be made of the 310s predessor, the Cessna T-50.
After war use, many surplus Cranes,/AT-17s/UC-78s were convertted not only for private use, but also to equip many of the new "feeder lines" abd charter services popping up across the US and Canada.
Here they are in TV's "Sky King" markings.
Posts: 1,707
By: longshot - 1st December 2008 at 00:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Less Common C-124 variants
The YC-124B was a prototype for a T34 turboprop powered tanker which wasnt ordered. note the dihedral tailplane ,,,,wonder how fast it was? The JC-124C was a test bed for the nose-mounted massive XT57 turboprop which was to power the cancelled C-132 transport....was there a photo of it flying just on the test engine.....Illustrations and info from Rene J Francillon's Putnam 'McDonnell Douglas Aircraft Vol I'
Was there also a batch of C-124s with door alterations to carry missiles?
Posts: 1,707
By: longshot - 1st December 2008 at 00:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Britten Norman Stretch Islander
Saw this early summer 1970 at Bembridge, this didn't go into production , but was later chopped around and converted to the prototype Trislander ready for the Farnborough show in September 1970
Posts: 2,101
By: old shape - 1st December 2008 at 00:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Fortunately 'less common'!! :)....up there with the Farman Jabiru for looks in my eye![/QUOTE]
Is that good then, Longshot...?;) Should have seen the ATT land on the river here two years ago, cor..!
On the C-124, JB shows us a nice model. Thanks for that. Could have been your Dad who gave us the rides...!
Wikipedia likens it to the poor old Princess, so here we go...
G-ALUN at Cowes in 1961
rgds
Alan
www.english-for-flyaways.de[/QUOTE]
ALUN deserves a picture of being in the air!
Posts: 9,871
By: J Boyle - 1st December 2008 at 02:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No record of those. However, the C-133s that had them...fitted on the 133Bs and the final few 133As.
Ther C-124 was an impressive airplane for essentially being late WW II technology (ff of the C-74 was in Sept 1945; C-124 Nov. 1949).
Posts: 178
By: battle_damaged - 1st December 2008 at 17:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
One of the C-124s we got a ride on at Blackbushe was 0-15207 (51-5207) on 3 October 59.
My notes say that it belonged to the 14 TCS of the 322 Air Division.
Such visits were generally organised by Arthur Pearcy and his wife Audrey, both of whom worked there, Arthur in the twr, Audrey at AIS. That was also the only time I have seen Sir Douglas Bader, who had arrived in the Gemini.
Here's a lesser-known transport, some of which I understand have just been ordered:
Posts: 1,707
By: longshot - 5th December 2008 at 00:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Beriev 200 amphibian
Imagine catching that from Gatwick to your Black Sea holiday resort. Reminds me a little of the Martin P6M Seamaster (below) which unfortunately wasnt a Transport type! (USN photo from Wikipedia....Seamaster)
Posts: 178
By: battle_damaged - 5th December 2008 at 15:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Can't do you a Seamaster, Longshot, but here's the next best thing, taken by Bob Ruffle at Blackbushe on 4 September 1957...
Posts: 1,707
By: longshot - 5th December 2008 at 23:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Dutch Mariners were Patrol bombers but the USN had them as transports ,too ....in this Life.com shot contract operated by an airline in WWII?...in the South Pacific somewhere
http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?q=Transport+source:life&imgurl=abefc1825ab0f541
Posts: 178
By: battle_damaged - 6th December 2008 at 02:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Somewhat smaller, our very own Blackbushe-based SNB-5 BuAer 51105, also courtesy Bob Ruffle:
Posts: 1,707
By: longshot - 7th December 2008 at 00:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Beech 18....SNB....C-45...Expeditor....less common versions
I've scratched around for a less-common version ,best I can find is N445DM, converted to a tri-tail Dumod Liner as in the abpic photo then reportedly stretched another 75 inches? in the Gary Chambers photo on airliners.net
http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1039867/
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Unknown/Beech-TC-45H-Dumodliner-Tri-Gear/0486880/M/
then there are all the turboprop and swept fin versions!!......
Posts: 1,707
By: longshot - 7th December 2008 at 00:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Martin 202 original tail shape
A post-war 'DC-3 replacement'....think the 202 was unpressurized,,,,had to have a much larger dorsal fin fitted, and more dihedral outboard of the engines by the look of it
http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?q=1940s+airplane+source:life&imgurl=5e0c16ffdd9d6371
Posts: 178
By: battle_damaged - 10th December 2008 at 18:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I should have mentioned, of course, that it was pre-1960....not terday.
Here's one that did a round-the-world during the 1987 Paris Air Show. On board were Patrick Fourticq, Henri Pescaroloo, Hubert Auriol, and Art Powell.
They wanted to beat Howard Hughes' rtw record, which I believe they did. (they were in the 18, Hughes in a 14)
Posts: 178
By: battle_damaged - 10th December 2008 at 18:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
...or how about this one, same year (1987). Wonder if it's been seen since (in service, I mean). Wonder what the Y in Y-12 stands for....YingTong perhaps...;)
Posts: 1,707
By: longshot - 11th December 2008 at 00:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I figured it was a real SNB rather than a modern-day retro warbird...I probably saw it at the 'Bushe
Hughes was originally going to use the DC-1 which he owned but sold it instead to Lord Forbes....didn't know his L14 fight had been 'replicated'
Attached a Howard 500 (Ventura conversion) taxying past my workplace around 1974...rare...ish!
Posts: 887
By: alertken - 11th December 2008 at 08:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Y= yunshu, transport.
Posts: 178
By: battle_damaged - 14th December 2008 at 18:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hmm...where might that have been? Not the former British Eagle hangars by any chance...??
Alan
Ken - thanks for the Y-12 explanation!