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By: - 4th September 2006 at 19:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No Spitfire on the list of attractions -never going to happen!
By: - 4th September 2006 at 20:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A Spitfire should be included! Its an aircraft and the T9 carries a passenger, ergo TRANSPORT AIRCRAFT.
Ray
By: - 4th September 2006 at 22:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Why do people always have to hijack threads. If it doesn't interest you ignore it, but don't spoil his ideas however far fetched they might be. Let him dream.
By: - 5th September 2006 at 08:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Phillip,
Your quite right Transport types in general don't tend to be well represented in preservation. When arguably by far the the biggest impact that aviation has had upon humanity is the way in which it has revolutionised transportation and shrunk the globe. Therefore it seems right and proper to have a museum dedicated to this aspect of aeronautics.
I would suggest that any such museum should go beyond just military transportation and include civilian types and activities as well; exhibits could include everything from the Berlin Airlift, through famine relief to sick bags and airline catering (now there's a thought).
Steve.
By: - 5th September 2006 at 09:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Excellent thesis. Nice one.
I can see it (in the mind's eye) but yup, it's not going to happen.
Doesn't make it a bad idea though.
By: - 5th September 2006 at 09:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I like the idea as well but two comments.
The location of EMA is, perhaps, too close to Cosford and any proposal would stand more chance, maybe, with a location in the north of England.
What about including a Vickers Victoria (rep) in the list? A couple of Vimy replicas have been built - didn't the Victoria utilise a lot of Vimy components?
Roger Smith.
By: - 5th September 2006 at 10:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
While the Hastings at Newark is rumoured to be available for sale (unconfirmed)…
Rumours of Hastings TG517 at Newark Air Museum ever being for sale are I believe greatly exaggerated!!
I know that the aircraft is now safely on the books of this Registered Museum as I am told that it was most generously gifted to the museum several months ago by its original owner.
Is this ‘new’ museum idea the same one that was rumoured to be being planned several years ago for Driffield or Dishforth?
By: - 5th September 2006 at 10:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I had a chat with fellow forumite Mr.B175 a couple of years ago on the same subject, although the obvious location to us was Kemble. Starting with the Britannia which is already there under preservation in RAFTC colours, and maintained by ex-RAF Britannia crew, the Lyneham Comet is just down the road, and a VC-10 and C130 could be flown in on retirement. There is also an airworthy Dakota based on the field. The Brit is not flying anywhere by the way. Although its in the south, Kemble is fairly easily accessible from the M4 and M5 and already has a railway station (albeit a mile or so walk from the airfield!). Kemble also has a siginificant RAF history, one of its uses was transporting supplies to France in 1944 using Dakotas - on 6th September 165 Dakotas carried out 580 movements.
Andy A.
By: - 5th September 2006 at 12:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A Percival Q6 in RAf colours would be nice.
Whats the story with the sole survior?
By: - 13th September 2006 at 17:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Currently working on an update to my proposal, but thought some might like to know what you can place in a display hall approximately 240ft x 340ft. More later...
By: - 13th September 2006 at 17:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Why not expand Cosford with a dedicated hall. Look at the aircraft types youve mentioned in the original thread. They have these aircraft there already, bear in mind some are not on display at the present but in hangers elsewhere on the base.
DC3 Dakota
York
Hastings
Belfast
Britannia Kemble
AW Argosy USA (a)
Devon
Pembroke
Pioneer
Twin Pioneer
Anson C19
Sycamore
Then add the other types on the list which the RAF have in service (about to be retired), gate guards or training airframes around the country maybe its a museum that is feasible. And for those that mocked the idea with mentions of aint gonna work no Spitfire. Well Cosford,s already got one so that problem is covered.
Suddenly doesnt look such a hard project if only from an airframe point of view.
Cracking idea Phillip maybe some one is listen and will get it kicked off one day certainly deserves to.
By: - 13th September 2006 at 18:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
An additional gallery at Cosford would be just the ticket, "such things are dreams made of".
I've attached a picture of the York at Duxford in early August.
Regards to All!
Eric
By: - 13th September 2006 at 18:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You'd have to fit the C-17 in c. 2060 as well...
By: - 14th September 2006 at 08:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
How about representing our favourite allies the yanks. Could get my fav transport in a C5 Galaxy. Sure it wouldnt take up to much room.
Remeber been at Mildenhall for one of the very last shows (cant rem the year) and the heavens well and truly opened up. It seemed the entire audience was crammed into the open hold. Craking experience and a lot of good natured banter between everyone including the crew. And we kept dry.
By: - 14th September 2006 at 09:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Remeber been at Mildenhall for one of the very last shows (cant rem the year) and the heavens well and truly opened up. It seemed the entire audience was crammed into the open hold. Craking experience and a lot of good natured banter between everyone including the crew. And we kept dry.
I was there too - splendid airshow moment.
Alternatively, why not just build the museum inside a C5?
I think a Transport Command Museum would be a cracking idea. Whilst appreciating the claims of Kemble and similar I too would favour a more northerly location. Just a question of spreading the goodies around
But, as said - I fear it'll never happen :(
Moggy
By: - 14th September 2006 at 09:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Phillip,
Can't see a Dakota on your plan, is this an oversight?
Steve
By: - 14th September 2006 at 09:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Dont forget to hang some stuff from the roof.....
By: - 14th September 2006 at 17:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Phillip,Can't see a Dakota on your plan, is this an oversight?
Steve
Phillip, forget the Dak, where's our Brit...???!!! :eek: www.xm496.com
By: - 14th September 2006 at 18:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
How about representing our favourite allies the yanks. Could get my fav transport in a C5 Galaxy. Sure it wouldnt take up to much room.Remeber been at Mildenhall for one of the very last shows (cant rem the year) and the heavens well and truly opened up. It seemed the entire audience was crammed into the open hold. Craking experience and a lot of good natured banter between everyone including the crew. And we kept dry.
This one preformed the very warlike duty of delivering a Christmas tree for Belfast City Hall in the mid 1990’s.
By: - 14th September 2006 at 18:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks for the pic Wessex Fan.
The C5 has always appealed. I think thats its do with the nose and cockpit area looking somethin like Thunderbird 2. Ahhh happy child hood days.
Was a good show Moggy your quite right. Like the idea of the museum inside the C5. How bowt an AN124 as well. Double the museum space? he he he
Seriously though it is a good idea (not the museum inside the C5) although I could only see it happening via the RAF at Cosford, purely due to the airframes they already hold. I fear though as Transports arent as glam as fighters and bombers it aint gonna be an idea that sees the light of day which is a shame.
Posts: 1,260
By: Phillip Rhodes - 4th September 2006 at 18:10 - Edited 2nd October 2019 at 11:40
I present to you a finely crafted piece of creative day dreaming – a proposal that will probably remain a work of fiction. Imagine if you will a display hall approximately 450ft x 450ft x 65ft in size with an external surface area of 319,5002ft. The interior need not be a clear span (but it would be advantageous) and then imagine the following preserved inside:
Aircraft / Source
DH4 Transport (Replica) TJD Engineering
DC3 Dakota Various Examples (a)
York Duxford Aviation Society (IWM)
Hastings Newark Air Museum
Belfast Current Operator (a)
VC10 Ministry of Defence (a)
C130 Hercules Ministry of Defence (a)
DH Comet C2 Ministry of Defence (RAF Lyneham)
DH Comet C4 Bruntingthorpe (a)
Beverley Fort Paull
Britannia Kemble (a)
Tristar Ministry of Defence (a)
AW Argosy USA (a)
Andover Africa (Former Queen’s Flight) (a)
Devon Various Examples (a)
Pembroke Various Examples (a)
Pioneer Various Examples
Twin Pioneer Coventry (?)
Heron Former Queen’s Flight
Anson C19 Various Examples
Valetta Norfolk and Suffolk Aviation Museum
Sycamore Various Examples
Whirlwind Various Examples
Belvedere RAF Museum / Manchester Science Museum
Wessex Various Examples
Puma Ministry of Defence (a)
(a = airworthy or with the potential of becoming airworthy to aid delivery)
Preserved aircraft in bold are currently located outside.
Imagine this building being located at Nottingham and East Midlands Airport. Why? Because NEMA is located in the centre of England, with good public transport connections, with buses from Derby, Nottingham, Leicester and Loughborough. It is also known that plans are afoot to hook up NEMA to the railway network. NEMA is also located next to the M1 motorway. Furthermore being an active airport, most of the large exhibits can easily fly into preservation. This would save countless millions in transportation costs.
While some may argue that RAF Lyneham or RAF Brize Norton would be more appropriate, NEMA offers better accessibility. NEMA was also an operational RAF transport base prior to becoming a regional airport. I would like to add that this proposal would be separate from the current Aeropark which is too small in size to accommodate such a large structure.
Sustainability is the key to success. No matter how impressive the museum or tourist attraction, it must pay its way or close. This usually means attracting huge visitor numbers. But we are talking about aeroplanes and as we all know aeroplanes aren’t everyone’s cup of tea. Such a attraction will be expensive to run. But this is a large building with an external surface area of 319,5002ft. Imagine this if you will:
At present a number of companies, mostly in the USA, are developing thin film photovoltaic solar technology, which [hopefully] will be ten times cheaper than conventional silicon based solar panels. The upside is that if you cover your 319,5002ft display hall in solar panels, you’d produce approximately £460,000 worth of electricity per annum – more if you sell direct to an end customer, say Nottingham and East Midlands Airport. Now, this tidy sum of £460,000 would be more than enough to secure the long term future of the museum. Don’t laugh, there are countless buildings with solar PV panelled roofs and walls – either completed or in the planning stage (see attached images). You could even allow for the museum to be open FREE to visitors, with additional income being secured through a shop and café.
Each aircraft listed would be refurbished and/or repainted by professionals – the same chaps who paint airliners for a living. This is viable because most of the larger aircraft will still be flyable and before being delivered to NEMA could stop off at one of several facilities around Europe.
The building need not be grandiose is the same manner as the recent developments at Cosford or Duxford. Your bog standard warehouse would suffice, albeit one clad in the aforementioned solar panels, making for an attractive structure. No windows (they are expensive and with free electricity, they aren’t needed). Imagine the floor of the museum being constructed in the same manner as your average aircraft apron – complete with taxiing and parking markings. No aircraft suspended from the ceiling as there is enough room to display all the aircraft at ground level.
Imagine a small shop, café and exhibition space, covered by a viewing balcony – offering elevated views of the collection. The ceiling and walls would be painted in a dark colour, so making the aircraft more pronounced. Visitors would walk on carpeted areas, similar to Hendon. Imagine the VC10 surrounded by RAF service vehicles. Imagine the Avro York and Hastings positioned on PSP (pierced steel planking) unloading essential supplies in a tribute to those who served in the Berlin Airlift. Imagine a large scale diorama of an airfield in Berlin filled with transport aircraft. Imagine the DC3 in SEAC colours in a jungle clearing juxtaposed with the polished fuselage of an Andover of the Queen’s Flight. Imagine a display on the “Life of a Ginite” complete with a large scale model of Gan itself.
Other displays would encompass current RAF air transport provision and operations, Royal Flying and the role of UK armed forces in United Nations peace keeping missions.
Would this excellent proposition for a museum work? Yes – why not?
Time frame? I would imagine the museum could open circa 2014.
Will it happen? Nope
The building will probably cost in the region of £30m. Add another £10m for the exhibits and you’ve blown £40m on a much needed repository, but as we all know – our aviation transport heritage isn’t worth an extra £40m. The Heritage Lottery Fund don’t fund new projects, anyway. Also, most of the exhibits would be on loan which is another sticking point.
Furthermore, I can’t see Duxford (DAS or IWM) lending the Avro York, even if their generosity would free up space in their new display hall for the VC10 or Trident or BAC111. The RAF Museum would have to give up their second Belvedere, currently on display in Manchester. While the Hastings at Newark is rumoured to be available for sale (unconfirmed), I doubt if the owner of the Blackburn Beverley would part with this particular aircraft. If he did, he’d want a million for the aircraft. And if he wants a million for his aircraft, then someone else will want a million for their airframe.
We know that the VC10 fleet will retire around 2010 and the Tristar will also be retired around the same time. Securing an original No.10 Squadron VC10 might be a problem as they are slowly scrapping them as we speak. The two remaining airworthy Belfast aircraft have a few years left in them, but I see no reason why one of the them, when declared surplus, could not be flown into NEMA – hopefully the prototype. The sole surviving RAF Britannia (currently based at Kemble) would be a star attraction and its inclusion would secure its long term future. The Valetta is another “must have” exhibit, but would the Norfolk and Suffolk Aviation Museum, owners of the last complete example, want to lend it to such a worthy project? Who knows…
This proposal is all about collaboration and teamwork.
My idea was born out of the debacle at Hendon. You know what I mean. Since then we’ve seen a countless number of RAF Transport Command aircraft types being scrapped left, right and centre. Thing is, Transport Command types are rare and this is our last chance to secure the future of the last of the few.
If I was to use one word to sum up the spirit of RAF Transport Command (and its successors), that word would be compassion. Ever since its creation, the men and machines of this command have helped millions around the world – from the Berlin Airlift to dropping aid in Africa or following the Boxing Day Tsunami. I can think of no finer tribute than a national museum dedicated to the role of Royal Air Force Transport Command.
Just a suggestion…