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By: - 13th May 2004 at 15:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I don't normally watch Heartbeat but I did see that one, a couple of years ago I think.
I don't know about earlier interest or other countries but I think the Dutch are a special case. As the main route in and out of Germany, they probably ended up with more than their fair share of downed aircraft. As the polders have been drained since the war, many have reappeared on dry-ish land.
I don't think the Dutch Government (or Air Force) had a lot of choice in the matter. They had to do something. This is not meant to detract from the teams that do the job, with respect, dedication and care.
I'm sure Cees could add more.
By: - 13th May 2004 at 19:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You rang?
Ok, where do I start.......
I quote:
I know the Dutch Air Force has a dedicated team of wreck recoverers full time. Do other Air Forces have that sort of thing too? And when did this trend to dig the wrecks and recover bodies start? Is this a recent thing?
Unquote.
Well, the Dutch AF have a team (at the moment not more then 3 men) of personell who normally are busy dismantling aircraft for transport (peace time or wartime). So it is something they were confronted with during the early sixties when the Flevopolders where drained and they found the wreck of a Dutch Meteor, when they thought they had finished the wrecks of dozens more (this time wartime) bombers, fighters etc. appeared when the waterlevel dropped more and more. And as there were so many wrecks encountered they just couldn't stop for fear of UXB. This is also the period where they got their reputation (and deserved at that) from. The work is still ongoing, only yesterday a British 500 lbs bomb was exploded when the fuse broke and something sensible had to be done. Personally i started to get interested after reading a copy of FlyPast during 1982 and never looked back since. Boy, didn't I know what to expect then.
Again I quote:
Two RNZAF men were buried this week in Britain alongside their fellow crew after being dug from their crashed Stirling by the Dutch team over the past year. They did a great job, allowing the fallen to have a proper burial.
Unquote
Well, it is true that this Stirling wreck was recovered by the Dutch AF but in co-operation with our organisation who provided manpower as well as technical information on the Stirling itself, but nowhere can be read that the project was initiated by a certain Dutch aviation archeologist group :rolleyes: who located the wrecksite, identified the wreck as well as establishing that there were human remains on board, contacting next of kin in the UK and New Zealand, started badgering the local authorities to have the wreck with missing crew recovered and properly buried. On the national news on tuesday none of us were interviewed or even to be seen on television (but that is not why we are doing it). Everyone thinks that the Dutch AF are full-time involved in actively researching crashsites and recovering missing crewmembers. Well the truth is different. I must say that over the last few years we have arrived at some sort of co-operation with the Air Force which has turned out to be very pleasant compared to a few years earlier. So things do change for the better.
OK, it goes on
- the difficulties you found, :
Name one and I probably have experienced it
or
-the challenges physically,:
Apart from the cold, wet to the bone from rain , marsh etc ( I think Merlin or Von Perthes know exactly what I mean) getting up very early while most "normal" people are still sleeping on saturday morning? . With the recovery of a Merlin from a Halifax that had fallen in a canal we were standing up to our waists in icy water (it was november) thinking (a hot bath, a hot bath etc.etc.). The recovery of Whitley N1521 was also very interesting standing waistdeep in water with fish jumping against you while feeling with your feet for wreckage.
or
-the beauracracy, :
Well pure murder as nobody wants you to recover the wrecks as it means more work for them. But they (civil servants) want to do their best to prevent you from succeeding. So everytime you have to slowly break down the bureaucratic wall brick by brick (in your spare time). And as soon as a project has successfully ended you can start all over again. :mad:
or
-the rewards, :
The satisfaction you feel when next of kin can finally bury their loved ones. At that point you have forgotten all the frustration it took to make sure a wreck was recovered (and it is not the wreckage we are doing it for, it only serves as a monument to the Allies, or as a monument to a German familiy who have finally buried a son/brother/cousin after such a long and painful period of time).
or
-the reason for doing it:
See above as well as a total and unbeatable respect for those young men as well as the aircraft of that time.
If you want to know more (of course you do), feel free to ask
Cheers
Cees
By: - 13th May 2004 at 20:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In this months Wingspan on page 9 there is what is claimed to be a sonar image of a Sunderland at the bottom of lake Winderemere, the article also claims that there is another Sunderland and a Sandringham in the depths of the lake.
How feasible would it be to raise at least one of these rare airframes?
By: - 13th May 2004 at 20:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I know the Loch Ness Wellington and the Hendon Halifax were early 1970's, but were such recovery projects rare then compared with today when there's so much coming from lakes and tundra in places like Russia and norway and the USA Great Lakes.
Dave, the Loch Ness Wellington, 'R' Robert, was recovered in 1985.
Hendon's Halifax was recovered in 1973.
Hope we get a Stirling next, please.
Regards,
Paul
By: - 13th May 2004 at 20:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Cees
The burial of the crew of the Stirling received a full page feature on the UK 'Daily Mail' yesterday. They unfortunately credited the recovery to 'Dutch Army excavation specialists'
They also report that the people of Opmeer will later 'erect a memorial including some part of the wreckage.'
I have always admired the Dutch for the way they recover 'lost' airmen and ensure they get a proper burial. There have been occasions in the UK when the 'authorities' have tried to stop a recovery by 'amateur enthusiasts'
Thank You.
mmitch.
By: - 13th May 2004 at 21:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks mmitch,
This newspaper article shows once again what a great advantage it is when
you have such a big organisation such as the Ministry Of Defence (and their PR-department). Again everyone in the UK thinks the Dutch Military have found and laid some more of Britains finest to rest etc. etc. It is a bit frustrating usually but you cannot fight it, just accept it. And the most important thing is that six names are removed from a list that is still too long even after so many years. I know this is perhaps sidestepping from the usual warbird topics but next month everyone will be remembering D-Day and after that Arnhem etc. But still people are missing and they should all be accounted for, we owe that to their families. Next week another investigation will start to hopefully identify a Lancaster wreck in the IJsselmeer, after that the whole path will have to be trodden all over again. We don't ask why, but just get on with it.
I know that the Missing Remains Act exists in the UK, how is this handled when a wreck with human remains is encountered. I heard about Mark Kirby and his experiences with the Battle of Britain missing, as have others. Care to elaborate on this one, can we on this forum? Just let me know.
Cheers
Cees
By: - 13th May 2004 at 21:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Oops before I forget
Some background information
One of N3654's twisted propellerblades was made into a memorial at no cost by one of our volunteers who spent many hours doing this what he thought he had to do. Also on tuesday this memorial was unveiled in honour of Stirling N3654 and it's crew. The Dutch authorities had nothing to do with it, just a personal gesture by someone who as a boy witnessed the aerial armadas flying over Holland. He thought that was his way to repay a debt after so many years. Everybody in our organisation highly respects him for his gesture, that is actually what should have been published in the UK-papers. the personal stories are the most powerful, not the official ones, those are just words without meaning...................
Cheers
Cees
By: - 13th May 2004 at 22:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Dear people,
an interesting site for you: www.a1.nl/nfla/
best regards,
Mathieu
By: - 13th May 2004 at 23:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Cees, I've said it before, and doubtless I'll say it time and time again - thank you very much for the efforts you and your colleagues go to to ensure that these boys are finally able to have known graves. It's greatly appreciated. :)
One question though, are your team full timers, or is this done in addition to your normal jobs?
By: - 14th May 2004 at 00:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Steve, I suspect we all know what the answer to that will be.
They do it because they want to, in their spare time.
By: - 14th May 2004 at 03:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks all, and particularly you Cees for the very interesting replies. And I second the thank yous for your efforts and those of your fellow team members. It is a great shame that you do not get more recognition. Perhaps you should write an article for Flypast to make others aware of what you do and raise interest in the group.
When the remains of aircrew who have been missing are recovered and buried properly, are their names then taken off the existing 'missing' memorials such as at Runnymede?
I did see the twisted prop memorial on the news item. A very nice gesture for that man to erect such a memorial.
I first heard about the Stirling recovery story many months ago when it featured on the Holmes show (a current affairs programme) because it followed a NZ Policeman who's uncle was one of the two Kiwis recovered and he'd gone over to assist in the recovery. I found the story fascinating and moving, and I salute the guys who carry out these recoveries - both military and volunteer civilians.
Here in New Zealand we seldom hear of such stories because there are so few men missing in air crashes within the country itself in comparison to Europe and the Pacific, etc. However a missing Hudson that crashed into the sea on the west coast was discovered only a few weeks ago when fishermen pulled the engine and prop up in their net. The engine has now gone to the RNZAF Museum. i don't know if they intend to recover anything more, such as the crew.
Oh yes, and according to Heartbeat, if a crashed wreck has a body in it, it is considered a war grave and mustn't be touched by anyone without a special licence. Not sure how accurate this is though.
By: - 14th May 2004 at 03:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, that Hudson engine looked in surprisingly good condition too considering how long it's been underwater.
Must been a helluva load on the fishing net....
By: - 14th May 2004 at 10:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Cees
I am certainly not qualified to give specific case details of recovery 'difficulties'. Von Perthes and others probably can.
But I have certainly read of cases over the years where the 'authorities have tried to stop a 'dig' and then when it has gone ahead a pilot has been found.
British law does require that a body is reported to a coroner who then decides if further investigation into the death is required. It is also an offence to conceal a body, which perhaps is why some 'authorities' don't wish a recovery to proceed?
mmitch.
By: - 14th May 2004 at 11:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
"When the remains of aircrew who have been missing are recovered and buried properly, are their names then taken off the existing 'missing' memorials such as at Runnymede?"
My understanding is yes.. Eventually - If a panel needs replacing etc
But I would like confirmation
By: - 14th May 2004 at 17:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
But I have certainly read of cases over the years where the 'authorities have tried to stop a 'dig' and then when it has gone ahead a pilot has been found.
British law does require that a body is reported to a coroner who then decides if further investigation into the death is required. It is also an offence to conceal a body, which perhaps is why some 'authorities' don't wish a recovery to proceed?
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mmitch,
In Holland there have been a few incidents where a dig was stopped because of the presence of human remains, but these cases were usually done by amateurs or souvenirhunters. Usually organisations as united in the nfla (see link in earlier thread) are very careful with crash investigations. From archives (and today using the Internet it is even easier) one can find out if a certain aircraft has still missing persons aboard. This is mostly applicable to land crashsites as most sites are documented.
Our own database covering the area where we are active (Noord-Holland and Texel) lists over 1500 idividual aircraft and that is excluding the IJsselmeer (so add another 500 or so). It is a different kind of fish with aircraft wrecks in Dutch coastal waters and lakes as these aircraft usually "dissapeared" at night and nobody knows where a certain aircraft came down. So everytime such a wreck is being investigated we must be very careful for possible bombs/ammunition and human remains. But in order to find out if a wreck could be "touchy" it has to be identified and that takes a lot of (again spare) time. But nobody else does it, and someone has to do this job anyway. The organisation I work for as a volunteer was founded in the late seventies and a lot of experience in the various fields is available.
Cheers
Cees
P.s. Flypast wrongly printed the name of our organisation as Dutch Aviation Recovery Group regarding the Heinkel 115, it is Aircraft Recovery Group 1940-1945 Foundation (a whole mouthful I know)
By: - 14th May 2004 at 20:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Licensing of Digs / Stirling
Found this website whilst trawling net for more info on Stirling Service reported in press on Wednesday, during which came across info on RAF website. [URL]http://www.raf.mod.uk/ptc/n3654.html]. By following links ended up at page on RAF Central Casualty Section [URL=http://www.raf.mod.uk/ptc/pmacasualty.html]
This explains licence required to excavate aircraft in UK, which will not be given if believed human remains in situ. Am also aware from visit to Runnymede last spring that the names of airmen whose bodies are eventually found are eventually removed from memorial but as previous poster states only when panels replaced
Posts: 5,588
By: Dave Homewood - 13th May 2004 at 14:19
I watched YTV's Heartbeat show the other day for the first time in ages, and was interested to see the main story revolved around a couple and the Aidensfield/Ashfordly police hunting for a wartime crash site of a Mosquito on the moors after thew couple's dog found some wreckage.
Interesting episode, and enjoyable. One thing that interested me was that the Government wouldn't give a deserter a full military funeral. What happened to deserters who died on the run? Did they get paupers graves? Or was it the family's responsibility to sort out a funeral? Luckily it turned out the pilot hadn't deserted after all, and the MoD were lyng to protect some secret papers in the plane.
It got me thinking... Were people as interested in wreck recovery and archeology in the 1960's as they are now, just out of interest? Was much crashed wreckage of plane recovered in Britain in the immediate post-war decades by enthusiasts, or was it more a case of recovery for scrap?
I know the Loch Ness Wellington and the Hendon Halifax were early 1970's, but were such recovery projects rare then compared with today when there's so much coming from lakes and tundra in places like Russia and norway and the USA Great Lakes.
I know the Dutch Air Force has a dedicated team of wreck recoverers full time. Do other Air Forces have that sort of thing too? And when did this trend to dig the wrecks and recover bodies start? Is this a recent thing? Two RNZAF men were buried this week in Britain alongside their fellow crew after being dug from their crashed Stirling by the Dutch team over the past year. They did a great job, allowing the fallen to have a proper burial.
If you've been involved in wreck recoveries i'd love to hear some stories about it - the difficulties you found, the challenges physically, the beauracracy, the rewards, the reason for doing it, etc. Cheers