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By: - 30th November 2002 at 11:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: British camouflage patterns
there are standard schemes for each aircraft type. The aircraft were masked with rubber(?) matts and the scheme sprayed on.
As for colours, what time during WW2 are you looking at? and for what aircraft type?
coanda
By: - 30th November 2002 at 14:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: British camouflage patterns
Well, I've seen archive film of a Lanc wing being spray-painted freehand by a guy in the factory! Though it did look like he was filling in someone elses' outline, which may well have been applied with some form of mask.
Paint jobs seem to rarely be as pristine and precise as modern restorations/reference sources would have us believe-not only were these weapons of war, but any machines that did hang around for any length of time ended up with all sorts of 'non-standard' paint jobs on them-famous Lancaster S-Sugar being just one small example, if you study the stills/film of her around the time of her '100th' op, you'll see for example that the line where the camoflage paint stops and the black undersides starts is totally wrong, very rough, and is generally all over the place!
By: - 30th November 2002 at 15:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: British camouflage patterns
The paint schemes, particularly the upper surface schemes were supposed to be standard patterns, they were meant to camoflage the aircraft against a background of countryside when viewed from above while in flight. It was realised very quickly that if they were parked on hardstandings or plain grass the camoflage was pretty ineffective. If every aircraft had different patterns, enemy PI's would soon be able to determine how many individual aircraft a unit had by carrying out repeated PR sorties and counting individual aircraft. If they all look the same you can't do it! But it's true to say that there were considerable variations, as all aircraft were painted quickly and "freehand". Sqn codes and other things were added locally, and painters being painters, often interpreted the instructions to suit their own ideas.
KeithMac
By: - 1st December 2002 at 00:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: British camouflage patterns
Thanks guys - I thought there must have been some sort of standard pattern, but wasn't sure.
Coanda - I wasn't concerned with any particular aircraft or period of the war, I was just interested in how the various hues were determined, particularly the duck egg blue, which always seemed to be more of a pale green to me, rather than a blue. I have seen English skies at their best on only one or two days when I visited, and they were most definitely blue, not pale green!
Keith - your explanation about standardised patterns makes sense, in the same way as previous advice regarding serial numbers did. I didn't think of the information that could be gained by intelligence personnel, but obviously, somebody did back then.
Regards
Wombat
By: - 1st December 2002 at 10:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: British camouflage patterns
Wombat.
I don't really know but I would imagine that speed of preparation also became a factor, particularly when accidental damage or that caused by enemy action was brequiring repair. Hence Lancman's comment about S-Sugar? Also, D-Day markings or invasion stripes were applied very hurriedly and there are huge differences in the way they were applied. Some were painted very neatly while others almost appear to have been applied very haphazardly, poor demarcation and also being applied none too straight.
Regards,
kev35
By: - 1st December 2002 at 16:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: British camouflage patterns
Nothing much changes over the years. In 1990 I was at Laarbruch, part of my "empire" was the aircraft paint section. When Saddam decided to invade Kuwait we got instructions to paint a number of aircraft into "Desert Pink". This colour of paint did not exist in any standard form. It was mixed on site to a "recipe" which was a few litres of this, a few litres of that, 3 paper coffee cups of this etc! It's little wonder that there were variations between the different units and even between aircraft painted at the same unit. When they left for the Gulf they were completely devoid of Sqn markings and even the national markings were toned down. After a few weeks in theatre they gained "nose art" and were patched up with locally mixed paint which often did not match the original Germany and UK mixed shade! Such is the reality of aircraft paint scheme's.
KeithMac.
By: - 1st December 2002 at 17:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: British camouflage patterns
I had an order today from the local base for 70000 litres of B&Q Desert Storm Vinyl Matt (pink to you and I) - hopefully the delivery will be in this week. I wonder what that was all about?
By: - 1st December 2002 at 18:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: British camouflage patterns
Tornado's in pristine Alkaline Removable Temporary Finish (ARTF) paintwork leaving Laarbruch for the last bash at Saddam! What's the odds on a repeat performance?
KeithMac
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By: - 1st December 2002 at 18:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: British camouflage patterns
Dont forget Keith, that once you add hyd-oil,engine oil and heat to the recipe- it does'nt wash off!!!I know I tried!!Got any more LBH piccies?
By: - 1st December 2002 at 20:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: British camouflage patterns
Hi Jase, you know I've got loads! I might even have one or two with you on!! I'm putting together a photo CD of Laarbruch VASS. As I get them scanned in I'll post a few.
KeithMac
Posts: 10,178
By: - 2nd December 2002 at 04:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: British camouflage patterns
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 02-12-02 AT 04:27 AM (GMT)]Speaking of Camoflauge and Lancaster, (lancman please take note ;0)...........Can anyone help with details on the camoflauge RAL colors etc of a MK 1 Lancaster bomber? A friend contacted me with photos of their flyable lancster(model) and it is awaiting final colors to make it an authentic MK1 lancaster.
I will post some pics of her tomorrow as they are currently 2.2 meg each(lancman quit drooling LOL) I sure wish I had one these models!
Peter
By: - 4th December 2002 at 13:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: British camouflage patterns
Your right about the hastily applied D-Day markings I have read somewhere that the Fleet Air Arm A/C had some marking which were a bit grey around the edges due to the paint not having time to dry.
Some paint schemes derive from what was available at the time, the 8th AF 4th fighter groups red paint applied to the nose cone came originally from the post office the same paint as the post boxes.
And I think I'm right in saying that the 357th fighter group used RAF green as the US olive drab was not available.
The 56th FG plum coloured P-47s I think was a result of not having enough of one colour or other to make up the olive drab.
By: - 4th December 2002 at 14:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: British camouflage patterns
Nice to see the Gulf Killer in it's pre-Gulf Killer days, Keithmac! Unfortunately i didn't see that many pink Laarbruch-Tornadoes until after the conflict, but then again only Bruggen and Wildenrath were in bicycle range for me (unless i really felt almighty and the weather was really nice). Just wondering: did you guys at Laarbruch also fly in a whole bunch of air scouts to do the painting? At least that happened in the weekend the first batch was painted at Bruggen - no wonder since the aircraft all left in pink on monday morning, while most of them were still flying around in green the friday before.
By: - 4th December 2002 at 18:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: British camouflage patterns
Coming back to the subject of locally applied paint, can anyone here help me out with a question which I've been pondering over for some time?
RAF night fighters changed from the standard night black scheme to the green / dark grey scheme from November 1942 onwards. Our Beaufighter was operational with 153 Sqn at Ballyhalbert from January 42, and was taken on 29 Sqn strength in January 43. Sometime around November 42 she was involved in a flying accident, and was repaired (we think) on site. We think we've found traces of the green / dark grey scheme, but there's also something which looks dark grey, but I think may be the original black, but very faded.
Actually, thinking about it, I've got quite a few questions -
1 - Would she have been repainted in the new scheme while being repaired after her accident?
2 - If so, would it have been done on her operational station or would she have had to be transported to an MU?
3 - Would it have been standard practice to paint over the existing scheme?
and finally 4 - Is it feasible that the original night black paint would have faded to a medium / dark grey over the last 60 years?
Would greatly appreciate any views on this, as I'd love to know whether I'm looking at remnants of her original paint scheme... :)
By: - 17th January 2003 at 11:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: British camouflage patterns
Pete
se if you can get hold of a copy of;
Fighting Colours by Michael J F Bowyer
RAF fighter camouflage & markings 1937 - 1969
my copy is copyrighted 1969 & has an SBN 85059 041 8. It's
probably been reprinted since then, it should answer any & all
queries on the subject.
also, I seem to remember that the Father of an ex girlfriend
of mine was a wartime aircraft painter. I have a vague
memory of him saying that hessian patterns were used
when spraying camouflage.
You could try some of the modelling sites too.
Posts: 378
By: Wombat - 30th November 2002 at 07:28
Here's one for RAF historians.
When new fighters and bombers were manufactured in Britain during WW2, were they painted to specific camouflage patterns or were the spray painters pretty well free to spray the upper camouflage pattern as they wished?
I realise that the cut-off point between upper and lower camouflage colours was pre-determined for most aircraft, but what about the top-sides?
Also, where did the camouflage colours (dark earth, dark green, duck-egg blue, etc,) originate?
Regards
Wombat