By: TonyT
- 9th December 2017 at 00:15Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Does anyone else not think this is a tragedy that it may be scrapped bearing in mind the rarity of the type these days. Added to that, the fact she was airworthy up until recently will mean she is a far better condition than a lot of those sitting in museums, regardless of how pampered they have been.
I can totally understand the price it was listed at on eBay, because it was more or less airworthy or potentially bar the struts I believe, the tragedy in that was it then put it out of the price range of those hoping to preserve her, however I would imagine her scrap value would be minimal, the value being in her parts, such as engines instrumentation and props etc.
By: Meddle
- 9th December 2017 at 00:56Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The strut issue would be a kicker though. A fairly obscure part to try and replace, which would translate into a major financial outlay for whoever picked up the project.
Perhaps the simple truth is that the Twin Pin is a somewhat ugly, unloved aircraft with a fairly limited appeal as a result. It is also pretty well represented; there is a cockpit section and complete airframe in Scotland (which is impressive given that we have a handful of aviation museums at most). Outwith Scotland it isn't too hard to imagine that the interest dwindles pretty quickly. Cosford have a nice example stored safely indoors, so do we need others? Had G-APRS been restored to flight then it would hardly be filling the Vulcan-shaped hole on the airshow circuit.
East Fortune might have been the best shout for purchasing G-APRS (Scottish museum with both space and money), but they already have G-BBVF.
By: Merlin Power
- 9th December 2017 at 08:01Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes it's more than a shame it's a tragedy that it wasn't saved, but 30K that's a lot of money in anyone's book. Yes we all like fast,loud and sleek but everything has its place in our aviation heritage, remember as we get older we need to inspire the future generation and what better way than seeing an aircraft in the sky. How safe is the Pembroke that is listed on ebay or is this now destined to become some more holiday accommodation or such like.
Perhaps now is the time to try to create an organisation like the ones in America or across Europe and keep as many of these planes where they belong..in the air.
Also more display slots for transports and liason types need to be found, remember slower planes in the air can stick in a childs memory better than fast and noisey, then that child pesters it's parents to see more aircraft ,more museums are then visited and we all need that.
By: Propstrike
- 9th December 2017 at 09:44Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The passage of time must be a factor, as eventually these aeroplanes become really quite old. Ten, even twenty years into retirement they may be in reasonable shape, but after thirty or forty, all the systems, seals, etc are properly tired, and fatique life, corrosion etc, are probably all becoming an issue. An aged Leonides engine , not rebuilt in forty years, was cited in the fatal Provost crash a few years ago. Sadly , when a major rebuild is needed, often the sums just do not stack up.
Seemingly the Twin Pin will go the way of the Varsity, the Bristol Freighter and perhaps the Heron soon. Rapides have a better future because they can make money, and the DC-3 probably has some staying power, being a historic icon.
The historic aircraft scene is shrinking, with a lot of types once familiar now absent, like the P.38, Tigercat, Thunderbolt, Mosquito, B-25, and even Mustangs falling in number. The jet scene is a shadow of its former self, having lost the Vulcan, Sea Vixen, Sea Hawk, T33, Sabre, most Hunters, all the Venoms, almost all the Vampires, the Canberra and most of the Meteors.
On the up are Hurricanes, and of course Spitfires, especially the two seaters and their potential to make money. As a trend, I would guess that the 'Battle of Britain' glamour will continue to keep these types in demand and valuable, thus justifying the high cost of rebuild.
The light end of the spectrum could also do quite well, with historic reproductions of types like Chiltons and Comper Swifts within the budget of the comfortably off, but ordinary enthusiast.
By: Shorty01
- 9th December 2017 at 20:53Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We don't need Merlin power, and appreciate the other less romantic types, but WE, i.e. those of us on this forum are not that many in number compared to the great unwashed. Unfortunately Spitfires, Hurricanes & Lancasters are what the public know about, as was the Vulcan, so they get all the money. I've often been the only aviation enthusiast in various places I have worked and have really had to explain/educate people that there is more to historic aviation in this country than the aforementioned types. You have to stir peoples passion to get cash and/or time out of them to keep things going.
By: Anon
- 9th December 2017 at 23:04Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So, do we know what is actually happening to the Twin Pin - Glamping pod? Private dwelling? Bits in a skip?
They've salvaged the engines and probably other bits as well though I'd surmise, if it's going to be a Glamping Pod or similar that the new owner would want the cockpit pretty much intact.
By: Merlin Power
- 10th December 2017 at 14:46Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes maybe I'm a romantic, but don't tell me that we don't need Merlin power. For over 30 years I've spread the word, being a person others come to when they see a historic but didn't know what they saw, to explain what it was with a history or operator.Been to museums all over the world, bringing new people to the hobby we enjoy. So don't Diss my enthusiasm .
By: richw_82
- 10th December 2017 at 19:39Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Being knowledgeable doesn't necessarily make you right, especially when you miss the point by a wide mark. What Shorty01 was getting at is that a good proportion of people on this forum concentrate on other types that don't have a Merlin up front - and thats fine. The world will still turn. But out there in that world people aren't going to give you the amount of support needed to purchase, restore and operate that type. Airbase/Classic Flight found that out with Classic Air Force, as did I when I was trying hard to sell the Shackleton as a project to anyone who stopped long enough to listen.
The hard fact is enthusiasm only gets you so far. Then you need money.
By: Shorty01
- 11th December 2017 at 22:25Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks RichW_82, I'm not disrespecting a fellow enthusiast, just pointing out we are a minority interest group and what does it for us doesn't necessarily do it for the general public who will only get behind something that significantly stirs their interest. To them we are no different to Steam Train enthusiasts or MG owners etc. As they say in "The Right Stuff", "no bucks , no Buck Rogers". I too have found myself the person people go to when curious about something in vintage aviation they don't recognise and try to educate people to the best of my ability. They tend to be interested but not to the point of getting their wallets out.
Sadly as time goes on and the WW2, 50s & 60s period moves out of living history people will become even more unaware of our subject of interest. I was horrified at the Eastbourne airshow a few years ago as I stood next to to the BBMF stall I overheard one person saying to their companion something like "The Battle of Britain? who did we have that with? was it the Germans or the French?", "Dun know, was it before or after the second world war?" came the reply.
Anyway I have a slightly different problem now with Merlins in that since Boultbee set up shop at Goodwood my youngsters aren't impressed by Spitfires so much as they see one go over their playground most days, even more common than the resident Harvard ! I suppose it's a nice problem to have.
By: Mothminor
- 16th July 2018 at 08:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Twin Pin has now arrived at the farm near Stirling where it is to be converted for glamping. An article with a couple of pics in today's Dundee Courier -
By: Meddle
- 16th July 2018 at 10:19Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A mixed blessing, really. Nice that it has returned to Scotland, but a shame that the interior will be re-fitted. I wonder if they will mount the tail somehow, or whether everything inside will be designed to take into account the angle of the fuselage? A little part of me wonders whether those who run these novelty 'glamping' attractions have the skills, time and interest to keep a historic aircraft in good condition.
By: Propstrike
- 16th July 2018 at 10:19Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I had hoped for a better outcome that that, but better at least than being scrapped. As an aeroplane out the elements, there will be a slow decay into corrosion and dereliction, which is rather sad.
I was very fond of the type, and that aeroplane, and I don't suppose we will ever see another flyer. I remember the VFWE fly in at Hullavington where the Twin Pin and AN2 had a side-by-side short take off contest, and the Twin Pin won by a mile !
By: scotavia
- 16th July 2018 at 11:01Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Its now a caravan ..shed ,not an aeroplane,lucky that the type is already in museums in the UK. Useful as novelty value attraction and the new owners do love waht they do so it will survive longer than in a scrap yard.
By: SADSACK
- 16th July 2018 at 12:36Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
lets hope the wings find a good home. Look how many a/c and rail wagons were used in this way, and as chicken coops, and are now in collections. Nothing to stop someone buying her in years to come and restoring her.
By: Meddle
- 16th July 2018 at 12:38Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think the wings are getting reattached.
"The Twin Pioneer had its wings removed in order to be transported to Mains Farm in Thornhill where it will be reassembled by Mr Steedman before a kitchen and bathroom is fitted inside."
Posts: 8,984
By: TonyT - 9th December 2017 at 00:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Does anyone else not think this is a tragedy that it may be scrapped bearing in mind the rarity of the type these days. Added to that, the fact she was airworthy up until recently will mean she is a far better condition than a lot of those sitting in museums, regardless of how pampered they have been.
I can totally understand the price it was listed at on eBay, because it was more or less airworthy or potentially bar the struts I believe, the tragedy in that was it then put it out of the price range of those hoping to preserve her, however I would imagine her scrap value would be minimal, the value being in her parts, such as engines instrumentation and props etc.
..
Posts: 1,613
By: Meddle - 9th December 2017 at 00:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The strut issue would be a kicker though. A fairly obscure part to try and replace, which would translate into a major financial outlay for whoever picked up the project.
Perhaps the simple truth is that the Twin Pin is a somewhat ugly, unloved aircraft with a fairly limited appeal as a result. It is also pretty well represented; there is a cockpit section and complete airframe in Scotland (which is impressive given that we have a handful of aviation museums at most). Outwith Scotland it isn't too hard to imagine that the interest dwindles pretty quickly. Cosford have a nice example stored safely indoors, so do we need others? Had G-APRS been restored to flight then it would hardly be filling the Vulcan-shaped hole on the airshow circuit.
East Fortune might have been the best shout for purchasing G-APRS (Scottish museum with both space and money), but they already have G-BBVF.
Posts: 8,984
By: TonyT - 9th December 2017 at 01:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think that was the problem, the only thing you could probably do would be to manufacture new struts and that would be mega expensive.
Posts: 140
By: Merlin Power - 9th December 2017 at 08:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes it's more than a shame it's a tragedy that it wasn't saved, but 30K that's a lot of money in anyone's book. Yes we all like fast,loud and sleek but everything has its place in our aviation heritage, remember as we get older we need to inspire the future generation and what better way than seeing an aircraft in the sky. How safe is the Pembroke that is listed on ebay or is this now destined to become some more holiday accommodation or such like.
Perhaps now is the time to try to create an organisation like the ones in America or across Europe and keep as many of these planes where they belong..in the air.
Also more display slots for transports and liason types need to be found, remember slower planes in the air can stick in a childs memory better than fast and noisey, then that child pesters it's parents to see more aircraft ,more museums are then visited and we all need that.
Posts: 3,902
By: Propstrike - 9th December 2017 at 09:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The passage of time must be a factor, as eventually these aeroplanes become really quite old. Ten, even twenty years into retirement they may be in reasonable shape, but after thirty or forty, all the systems, seals, etc are properly tired, and fatique life, corrosion etc, are probably all becoming an issue. An aged Leonides engine , not rebuilt in forty years, was cited in the fatal Provost crash a few years ago. Sadly , when a major rebuild is needed, often the sums just do not stack up.
Seemingly the Twin Pin will go the way of the Varsity, the Bristol Freighter and perhaps the Heron soon. Rapides have a better future because they can make money, and the DC-3 probably has some staying power, being a historic icon.
The historic aircraft scene is shrinking, with a lot of types once familiar now absent, like the P.38, Tigercat, Thunderbolt, Mosquito, B-25, and even Mustangs falling in number. The jet scene is a shadow of its former self, having lost the Vulcan, Sea Vixen, Sea Hawk, T33, Sabre, most Hunters, all the Venoms, almost all the Vampires, the Canberra and most of the Meteors.
On the up are Hurricanes, and of course Spitfires, especially the two seaters and their potential to make money. As a trend, I would guess that the 'Battle of Britain' glamour will continue to keep these types in demand and valuable, thus justifying the high cost of rebuild.
The light end of the spectrum could also do quite well, with historic reproductions of types like Chiltons and Comper Swifts within the budget of the comfortably off, but ordinary enthusiast.
Posts: 8,849
By: Newforest - 9th December 2017 at 11:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Best post PS on this subject, hitting the nail on the head, food for thought but not enough money!
Posts: 211
By: Elmdon Boy - 9th December 2017 at 20:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No we don't Merlin Power, and I'm sure a number on this forum would agree with me, but I do agree with the jest of your reply.
Posts: 722
By: Shorty01 - 9th December 2017 at 20:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We don't need Merlin power, and appreciate the other less romantic types, but WE, i.e. those of us on this forum are not that many in number compared to the great unwashed. Unfortunately Spitfires, Hurricanes & Lancasters are what the public know about, as was the Vulcan, so they get all the money. I've often been the only aviation enthusiast in various places I have worked and have really had to explain/educate people that there is more to historic aviation in this country than the aforementioned types. You have to stir peoples passion to get cash and/or time out of them to keep things going.
Posts: 2,841
By: Anon - 9th December 2017 at 23:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So, do we know what is actually happening to the Twin Pin - Glamping pod? Private dwelling? Bits in a skip?
They've salvaged the engines and probably other bits as well though I'd surmise, if it's going to be a Glamping Pod or similar that the new owner would want the cockpit pretty much intact.
Anon.
Posts: 140
By: Merlin Power - 10th December 2017 at 14:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes maybe I'm a romantic, but don't tell me that we don't need Merlin power. For over 30 years I've spread the word, being a person others come to when they see a historic but didn't know what they saw, to explain what it was with a history or operator.Been to museums all over the world, bringing new people to the hobby we enjoy. So don't Diss my enthusiasm .
Posts: 1,665
By: richw_82 - 10th December 2017 at 19:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Being knowledgeable doesn't necessarily make you right, especially when you miss the point by a wide mark. What Shorty01 was getting at is that a good proportion of people on this forum concentrate on other types that don't have a Merlin up front - and thats fine. The world will still turn. But out there in that world people aren't going to give you the amount of support needed to purchase, restore and operate that type. Airbase/Classic Flight found that out with Classic Air Force, as did I when I was trying hard to sell the Shackleton as a project to anyone who stopped long enough to listen.
The hard fact is enthusiasm only gets you so far. Then you need money.
Rich
(and seriously....'diss'...?)
Posts: 251
By: Piston - 10th December 2017 at 22:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
His Diss is in Norfolk, I suspect he meant dis(respect)....
Posts: 722
By: Shorty01 - 11th December 2017 at 22:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks RichW_82, I'm not disrespecting a fellow enthusiast, just pointing out we are a minority interest group and what does it for us doesn't necessarily do it for the general public who will only get behind something that significantly stirs their interest. To them we are no different to Steam Train enthusiasts or MG owners etc. As they say in "The Right Stuff", "no bucks , no Buck Rogers". I too have found myself the person people go to when curious about something in vintage aviation they don't recognise and try to educate people to the best of my ability. They tend to be interested but not to the point of getting their wallets out.
Sadly as time goes on and the WW2, 50s & 60s period moves out of living history people will become even more unaware of our subject of interest. I was horrified at the Eastbourne airshow a few years ago as I stood next to to the BBMF stall I overheard one person saying to their companion something like "The Battle of Britain? who did we have that with? was it the Germans or the French?", "Dun know, was it before or after the second world war?" came the reply.
Anyway I have a slightly different problem now with Merlins in that since Boultbee set up shop at Goodwood my youngsters aren't impressed by Spitfires so much as they see one go over their playground most days, even more common than the resident Harvard ! I suppose it's a nice problem to have.
Posts: 2,841
By: Anon - 12th December 2017 at 09:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Just to steer this thread back on to the original subject...
but does anyone know what is happening to the airframe for sure - or have further pictures of the dismantling?
Thanks, Anon.
Posts: 1,315
By: Mothminor - 16th July 2018 at 08:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Twin Pin has now arrived at the farm near Stirling where it is to be converted for glamping. An article with a couple of pics in today's Dundee Courier -
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/scotland/689150/twin-pioneer-plane-to-be-converted-into-holiday-home/
Posts: 1,613
By: Meddle - 16th July 2018 at 10:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A mixed blessing, really. Nice that it has returned to Scotland, but a shame that the interior will be re-fitted. I wonder if they will mount the tail somehow, or whether everything inside will be designed to take into account the angle of the fuselage? A little part of me wonders whether those who run these novelty 'glamping' attractions have the skills, time and interest to keep a historic aircraft in good condition.
Posts: 3,902
By: Propstrike - 16th July 2018 at 10:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I had hoped for a better outcome that that, but better at least than being scrapped. As an aeroplane out the elements, there will be a slow decay into corrosion and dereliction, which is rather sad.
I was very fond of the type, and that aeroplane, and I don't suppose we will ever see another flyer. I remember the VFWE fly in at Hullavington where the Twin Pin and AN2 had a side-by-side short take off contest, and the Twin Pin won by a mile !
Posts: 2,810
By: scotavia - 16th July 2018 at 11:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Its now a caravan ..shed ,not an aeroplane,lucky that the type is already in museums in the UK. Useful as novelty value attraction and the new owners do love waht they do so it will survive longer than in a scrap yard.
Posts: 3,415
By: SADSACK - 16th July 2018 at 12:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
lets hope the wings find a good home. Look how many a/c and rail wagons were used in this way, and as chicken coops, and are now in collections. Nothing to stop someone buying her in years to come and restoring her.
Posts: 1,613
By: Meddle - 16th July 2018 at 12:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think the wings are getting reattached.
"The Twin Pioneer had its wings removed in order to be transported to Mains Farm in Thornhill where it will be reassembled by Mr Steedman before a kitchen and bathroom is fitted inside."
I wonder how they will plumb it in...