By: Enobarbus
- 25th March 2012 at 18:11Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
WHY will HMS Belfast be scrapped? Have you ever been on board? Ever seen the work being done by a large number of dedicated people WITH the proper funding to preserve it?
Looks like an outbreak of Daily Mail like doom and gloom on this board.
By: David Burke
- 25th March 2012 at 19:09Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The ship has been in the Thames for a very long time -I guess at some stage she will need dry dock treatment as what the public sees is probably quite different to whats happening below the waterline
By: Creaking Door
- 25th March 2012 at 19:55Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There have been constant attempts to preserve HMS Plymouth ever since she was retired from service. It is phenomenally expensive to preserve something as large and complex as a warship of Frigate size and takes an awful lot of work as well as enormous amounts of cash.
I fail to see how this is some kind of "national disgrace" and as for comparing it to the preservation of world famous and world renowned paintings, I am left just totally perplexed.
Sense of perspective needed here methinks.
I agree that we need a sense of perspective, but just because saving HMS Plymouth would require a lot of effort and cash does that mean that it isn’t somehow worthy of preservation? Cash isn’t really the issue though is it; government money is available but I believe that it is too heavily biased towards other causes.
I’ll go back to my comparison to the ‘preservation’ of world famous and renowned paintings. The National Gallery purchased Titian's Diana and Callisto for £45million this year, fair enough, I would rather this painting was on display in the UK than being sold abroad. But the National Galleries of Scotland and the National Gallery also purchased Titian's Diana and Actaeon in 2009 for £50million. Now I appreciate that not all the money used to purchase these paintings was public money but large sums of it were and the National Gallery alone is funded to the tune of about £28million every year.
Of course, these two paintings only represent a fraction of the collection of the National Gallery; I’d be very interested to know the total number of paintings and their value (or should that be ‘importance’). I’m sure within another few years we’ll see another fundraising campaign and more public money being spent to ‘save’ another great master.
HMS Plymouth on the other hand wouldn’t have required anything like those sums of money being spend on her but she will not be ‘saved for the nation’ despite the fact that she is the last warship (in the UK) to have seen service during the Falklands War; in fact she will not be ‘saved’ at all but scrapped and lost forever. This fate would not, of course, have fallen on the paintings; they may have left these shores but at least they’d have remained safe.
I’m not saying that the UK doesn’t have a fair collection of preserved warships but it doesn’t have the collection that it should have given our maritime heritage and the fact that these ships made this nation, and saved this nation more than once in the preceding centuries; a claim that nobody would seriously make about any painting, no matter how ‘important’. And that’s just the ships; the men who served, fought and died in these ships must never be forgotten. What message are we sending to these men if the nation cannot be bothered to save a single warship from a conflict only thirty years ago?
Ironically, the purchase of Diana and Actaeon was partly funded by a £10 million donation (of public money) from the National Heritage Memorial Fund, an organisation that receives £10million in government money per year, and which was set up in 1980 to:
“...save the most outstanding parts of our heritage at risk of loss to the nation, as a memorial to those who have given their lives for the UK.”
By: paul178
- 25th March 2012 at 20:42Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
#23
Since being brought to London HMS Belfast has twice been drydocked as part of the ship’s long-term preservation. In 1982 she was docked at Tilbury, and in June 1999 Belfast was towed to Portsmouth. This was the first time she had been to sea in 28 years and required a Certificate of Seaworthiness from the Maritime and Coastguard Agency. While in dock, her entire hull was cleaned, blasted, and repainted, her hull blanking plates inspected and an ultrasonic survey carried out. She is not expected to require further drydocking until 2020.
By: David Burke
- 25th March 2012 at 21:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes Paul thats pretty much the Wiki script -however long term preservation and floating in the Thames will eventually need a new approach to her . Simply floating will not be an option forever.
By: paul178
- 25th March 2012 at 22:08Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes Paul thats pretty much the Wiki script -however long term preservation and floating in the Thames will eventually need a new approach to her . Simply floating will not be an option forever.
I agree but then when that day comes Dry Dock her like The Victory(and all the historic aircraft flying today for that matter)
Its a Bl**dy disgrace that Plymouth cannot or will not be saved for the want of what is peanuts in the scheme of things. It should be kept as a tribute to those who died in the Falklands. Obviously that ship is not built to withstand the pounding that Belfast got so a dry berth with HMS Cavalier would be nice.
On a similar subject google HMS Alliance and look at some of the images of the state she is in! Then take a look at HMS Otus saved from Pounds Scrapyard by a German and displayed there as a museum ship(correction subs are boats!) There has got to be something wrong about our attitude as a maritime nation!
By: David Burke
- 25th March 2012 at 22:18Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I agree entirely ! What I find most upsetting is the fact that she is surrounded by some of the most historic shipbuilding facilities in the country and the city of Liverpool that isnt exactly short of visitors! It is a disgrace for the region that something tangable couldnt have been done.
The photographs below are from the gun-camera footage of the Argentine Dagger fighter-bombers as they attacked HMS Plymouth with 1000lb bombs and 30mm cannon-fire on 8th June 1982. Although HMS Plymouth was struck by four 1000lb bombs, from the five aircraft that attacked her, fortunately none of them exploded and none of her crew were killed.
The bombs had been dropped from too low an altitude for them to arm properly, due in no small part to the return-fire put up by the crew (using two WW2-vintage 20mm Oerlikon cannon and obsolescent Sea Cat missiles), but the damage they caused is clearly shown in other photographs on the website linked above. One bomb passed clean-through the funnel (the hole can be seen as a black dot in one of the stills from the gun-camera below). Another bomb detonated a depth-charge on the flight-deck starting a major fire in the compartments below. Another bomb passed through the (occupied) Limbo anti-submarine mortar shell-handling compartment and another bomb ricocheted off one of the barrels of the Limbo mortar itself. The Argentine aircraft also strafed HMS Plymouth with 30mm cannon-fire (again visible in the photographs below); the ship was hit but the damage was limited.
There cannot be many warships in existence today that have photographs of them taken by their attackers in such circumstances!
This is how to bring history alive, the USA are brilliant at doing this with both imagination and also on a commercial footing. I was lucking enough to stay there over 25 years ago and it was a fantastic experience.
Sometimes it's as if we are ashamed of our past.
By: Enobarbus
- 26th March 2012 at 00:56Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Seems as if no one can generate the cash to successfully preserve HMS Plymouth as there have been many attempts to do so since she was retired.
You simplify cannot compare this Frigate to the likes of Titian's Diana and Callisto in terms of significance globally or nationally. Now I really like the Rothesay Class frigates and their like, but no way would I claim any really national significance that justifies their preservation. Just looking at the example of HMS Alliance shows that there is precious little interest in any one actually spending money on this sort of preservation.
patb,
"..Sometimes it's as if we are ashamed of our past."
There is an AWFUL lot of our past to be ashamed of!
HMS Plymouth is NOT an example of that, but nor is she an example of anything particularly special.
By: Enobarbus
- 26th March 2012 at 02:14Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Stuff who?
The UK contributes to this fund along with scores of other countries, the Argentines just happen to be one of many recipients. As it is not the decision of the UK Government where this money goes I really don't see what the fuss is about.
The UK also contributes to the IMF, of which Argentina has certainly been a long term beneficiary, should we stop that too?
How does a bankrupt Argentina help the cause of the Falklands?
How does this help the cause of HMS Plymouth...........................
By: paul178
- 26th March 2012 at 03:51Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Going away from the the Plymouth a moment. Stuff the lot of them. All Third World Countries and any one who comes knocking at the UK's door for economic aid. Sorry charity begins at home. I feel the same about being dragged into wars such as Iraq, Afghanistan and whoever Uncle Sam wants a regime change in next. Iran, Syria North Korea,Pakistan you name it. Stuff the European Court of Human Rights and kick out the foriegn travellers. If and when we have enough money for the needy in this Country and those badly injured fighting on a whim and our service families get decent housing. Pensioners to frightened to keep warm or eat and dread the so called retirement homes or even leaving their homes after dark (not the professional scroungers) then I would think outside these shores.
Does this make me a bad person for voicing an opinion about this country going down the pan? We are no longer a world power but we should not forget out heritage. This brings me back to HMS Plymouth which actually fought for us and our dependants and should be a fitting tribute for ALL of Great Britain. As for a bankrupt Argentina, I don't give a toss!
So their you have it the views of a 67 year old British pensioner who really does not fancy the future that much. I think a lot of people within this nation would agree with me if they had the courage to stand up and be counted!
By: Creaking Door
- 26th March 2012 at 09:09Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Seems as if no one can generate the cash to successfully preserve HMS Plymouth as there have been many attempts to do so since she was retired.
What you mean is nobody has managed to successfully preserve HMS Plymouth without a big handout of government money! Well, she was preserved quite successfully for nearly twenty years (in an appallingly difficult location) and probably would still be in preservation if it weren’t for the fact that the warehouse near her former berth was sold for commercial development.
I’d also be vary wary of using the commercial argument as an indication of worth for preservation; you’ll notice that both of the Titian works ‘saved’ for the National Galleries needed (and got) a huge investment of government money.
By: David Burke
- 26th March 2012 at 10:05Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Enobabus- You cannot base preservation of an item on how 'outstanding' or 'nationally significant' it is otherwise you would have hardly anything preserved! You would need to get rid of vast swaves of classic cars -buses -trains and indeed aircraft as they would be deemed 'average' !
The basis for preserving HMS Plymouth is not only because of her Falklands history -its because she is an example of a frigate from the time when we had a large and active navy. It could be argued that no ship of the period it saw service is any more important than the other -they all complimented each other!
The Plymouth has effectively been preserved as she has obviously escaped scrapping all these years ! What she needs is a cheap berth and people with vision.
By: The Beach
- 26th March 2012 at 11:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
sorry but sod preserving boats ships paintings etc how about bringing down the cost of fuel and putting money into hospitals YOU KNOW the important day to day life matters anyway "history is a thing of the past"
By: Fouga23
- 26th March 2012 at 11:52Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I often wonder why most ships are preserved docked and not on land. Seems to me, preserving a ship out of the water significantly reduced the preservation costs!
By: TonyT
- 26th March 2012 at 12:30Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Americans Dragged a Uboat many miles inland, then lowered it down a well 4 stories into a specially prepared hall to preserve it for future generations...
By: David Burke
- 26th March 2012 at 12:37Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The U-boat wasn't raised by the U.K -it was raised because it was thought to contain valuables ! It didnt ! It was then brought from the foreign salvors to Birkenhead and is now on display at Woodside after being cut into sections to make it easier to move.
Ironically the Oberon class submarine that was preserved in the West Float (Birkenhead) moved to Barrow . That was built at Cammell Laird's - within sight of where a the German U-boat is now preserved ! You really couldnt write it!
Posts: 13
By: Enobarbus - 25th March 2012 at 18:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
WHY will HMS Belfast be scrapped? Have you ever been on board? Ever seen the work being done by a large number of dedicated people WITH the proper funding to preserve it?
Looks like an outbreak of Daily Mail like doom and gloom on this board.
Posts: 9,780
By: David Burke - 25th March 2012 at 19:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The ship has been in the Thames for a very long time -I guess at some stage she will need dry dock treatment as what the public sees is probably quite different to whats happening below the waterline
Posts: 9,739
By: Creaking Door - 25th March 2012 at 19:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I agree that we need a sense of perspective, but just because saving HMS Plymouth would require a lot of effort and cash does that mean that it isn’t somehow worthy of preservation? Cash isn’t really the issue though is it; government money is available but I believe that it is too heavily biased towards other causes.
I’ll go back to my comparison to the ‘preservation’ of world famous and renowned paintings. The National Gallery purchased Titian's Diana and Callisto for £45million this year, fair enough, I would rather this painting was on display in the UK than being sold abroad. But the National Galleries of Scotland and the National Gallery also purchased Titian's Diana and Actaeon in 2009 for £50million. Now I appreciate that not all the money used to purchase these paintings was public money but large sums of it were and the National Gallery alone is funded to the tune of about £28million every year.
Of course, these two paintings only represent a fraction of the collection of the National Gallery; I’d be very interested to know the total number of paintings and their value (or should that be ‘importance’). I’m sure within another few years we’ll see another fundraising campaign and more public money being spent to ‘save’ another great master.
HMS Plymouth on the other hand wouldn’t have required anything like those sums of money being spend on her but she will not be ‘saved for the nation’ despite the fact that she is the last warship (in the UK) to have seen service during the Falklands War; in fact she will not be ‘saved’ at all but scrapped and lost forever. This fate would not, of course, have fallen on the paintings; they may have left these shores but at least they’d have remained safe.
I’m not saying that the UK doesn’t have a fair collection of preserved warships but it doesn’t have the collection that it should have given our maritime heritage and the fact that these ships made this nation, and saved this nation more than once in the preceding centuries; a claim that nobody would seriously make about any painting, no matter how ‘important’. And that’s just the ships; the men who served, fought and died in these ships must never be forgotten. What message are we sending to these men if the nation cannot be bothered to save a single warship from a conflict only thirty years ago?
Ironically, the purchase of Diana and Actaeon was partly funded by a £10 million donation (of public money) from the National Heritage Memorial Fund, an organisation that receives £10million in government money per year, and which was set up in 1980 to:
Yes, a sense of perspective is needed.
Posts: 2,841
By: paul178 - 25th March 2012 at 20:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
#23
Since being brought to London HMS Belfast has twice been drydocked as part of the ship’s long-term preservation. In 1982 she was docked at Tilbury, and in June 1999 Belfast was towed to Portsmouth. This was the first time she had been to sea in 28 years and required a Certificate of Seaworthiness from the Maritime and Coastguard Agency. While in dock, her entire hull was cleaned, blasted, and repainted, her hull blanking plates inspected and an ultrasonic survey carried out. She is not expected to require further drydocking until 2020.
Posts: 9,780
By: David Burke - 25th March 2012 at 21:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes Paul thats pretty much the Wiki script -however long term preservation and floating in the Thames will eventually need a new approach to her . Simply floating will not be an option forever.
Posts: 2,841
By: paul178 - 25th March 2012 at 22:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I agree but then when that day comes Dry Dock her like The Victory(and all the historic aircraft flying today for that matter)
Its a Bl**dy disgrace that Plymouth cannot or will not be saved for the want of what is peanuts in the scheme of things. It should be kept as a tribute to those who died in the Falklands. Obviously that ship is not built to withstand the pounding that Belfast got so a dry berth with HMS Cavalier would be nice.
On a similar subject google HMS Alliance and look at some of the images of the state she is in! Then take a look at HMS Otus saved from Pounds Scrapyard by a German and displayed there as a museum ship(correction subs are boats!) There has got to be something wrong about our attitude as a maritime nation!
Posts: 9,780
By: David Burke - 25th March 2012 at 22:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I agree entirely ! What I find most upsetting is the fact that she is surrounded by some of the most historic shipbuilding facilities in the country and the city of Liverpool that isnt exactly short of visitors! It is a disgrace for the region that something tangable couldnt have been done.
Posts: 9,739
By: Creaking Door - 25th March 2012 at 23:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There are some interesting photographs of HMS Plymouth in ‘happier’ times on the HMS Plymouth Association website:
http://www.hmsplymouth.co.uk/windy/windy.htm
The photographs below are from the gun-camera footage of the Argentine Dagger fighter-bombers as they attacked HMS Plymouth with 1000lb bombs and 30mm cannon-fire on 8th June 1982. Although HMS Plymouth was struck by four 1000lb bombs, from the five aircraft that attacked her, fortunately none of them exploded and none of her crew were killed.
The bombs had been dropped from too low an altitude for them to arm properly, due in no small part to the return-fire put up by the crew (using two WW2-vintage 20mm Oerlikon cannon and obsolescent Sea Cat missiles), but the damage they caused is clearly shown in other photographs on the website linked above. One bomb passed clean-through the funnel (the hole can be seen as a black dot in one of the stills from the gun-camera below). Another bomb detonated a depth-charge on the flight-deck starting a major fire in the compartments below. Another bomb passed through the (occupied) Limbo anti-submarine mortar shell-handling compartment and another bomb ricocheted off one of the barrels of the Limbo mortar itself. The Argentine aircraft also strafed HMS Plymouth with 30mm cannon-fire (again visible in the photographs below); the ship was hit but the damage was limited.
There cannot be many warships in existence today that have photographs of them taken by their attackers in such circumstances!
Posts: 169
By: patb - 25th March 2012 at 23:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
http://www.battleshipcove.com/camping.htm
This is how to bring history alive, the USA are brilliant at doing this with both imagination and also on a commercial footing. I was lucking enough to stay there over 25 years ago and it was a fantastic experience.
Sometimes it's as if we are ashamed of our past.
Posts: 13
By: Enobarbus - 26th March 2012 at 00:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Seems as if no one can generate the cash to successfully preserve HMS Plymouth as there have been many attempts to do so since she was retired.
You simplify cannot compare this Frigate to the likes of Titian's Diana and Callisto in terms of significance globally or nationally. Now I really like the Rothesay Class frigates and their like, but no way would I claim any really national significance that justifies their preservation. Just looking at the example of HMS Alliance shows that there is precious little interest in any one actually spending money on this sort of preservation.
patb,
"..Sometimes it's as if we are ashamed of our past."
There is an AWFUL lot of our past to be ashamed of!
HMS Plymouth is NOT an example of that, but nor is she an example of anything particularly special.
Posts: 2,841
By: paul178 - 26th March 2012 at 01:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Some of this money would do nicely
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/4154362/Britain-funds-450m-aid-to-Argentina.html
Yes I know you can believe every word in the sun but if its only half true, Stuff Them!
Posts: 13
By: Enobarbus - 26th March 2012 at 02:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Stuff who?
The UK contributes to this fund along with scores of other countries, the Argentines just happen to be one of many recipients. As it is not the decision of the UK Government where this money goes I really don't see what the fuss is about.
The UK also contributes to the IMF, of which Argentina has certainly been a long term beneficiary, should we stop that too?
How does a bankrupt Argentina help the cause of the Falklands?
How does this help the cause of HMS Plymouth...........................
Posts: 2,841
By: paul178 - 26th March 2012 at 03:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Going away from the the Plymouth a moment. Stuff the lot of them. All Third World Countries and any one who comes knocking at the UK's door for economic aid. Sorry charity begins at home. I feel the same about being dragged into wars such as Iraq, Afghanistan and whoever Uncle Sam wants a regime change in next. Iran, Syria North Korea,Pakistan you name it. Stuff the European Court of Human Rights and kick out the foriegn travellers. If and when we have enough money for the needy in this Country and those badly injured fighting on a whim and our service families get decent housing. Pensioners to frightened to keep warm or eat and dread the so called retirement homes or even leaving their homes after dark (not the professional scroungers) then I would think outside these shores.
Does this make me a bad person for voicing an opinion about this country going down the pan? We are no longer a world power but we should not forget out heritage. This brings me back to HMS Plymouth which actually fought for us and our dependants and should be a fitting tribute for ALL of Great Britain. As for a bankrupt Argentina, I don't give a toss!
So their you have it the views of a 67 year old British pensioner who really does not fancy the future that much. I think a lot of people within this nation would agree with me if they had the courage to stand up and be counted!
Posts: 9,739
By: Creaking Door - 26th March 2012 at 09:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What you mean is nobody has managed to successfully preserve HMS Plymouth without a big handout of government money! Well, she was preserved quite successfully for nearly twenty years (in an appallingly difficult location) and probably would still be in preservation if it weren’t for the fact that the warehouse near her former berth was sold for commercial development.
I’d also be vary wary of using the commercial argument as an indication of worth for preservation; you’ll notice that both of the Titian works ‘saved’ for the National Galleries needed (and got) a huge investment of government money.
Posts: 9,780
By: David Burke - 26th March 2012 at 10:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Enobabus- You cannot base preservation of an item on how 'outstanding' or 'nationally significant' it is otherwise you would have hardly anything preserved! You would need to get rid of vast swaves of classic cars -buses -trains and indeed aircraft as they would be deemed 'average' !
The basis for preserving HMS Plymouth is not only because of her Falklands history -its because she is an example of a frigate from the time when we had a large and active navy. It could be argued that no ship of the period it saw service is any more important than the other -they all complimented each other!
The Plymouth has effectively been preserved as she has obviously escaped scrapping all these years ! What she needs is a cheap berth and people with vision.
Posts: 85
By: The Beach - 26th March 2012 at 11:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
sorry but sod preserving boats ships paintings etc how about bringing down the cost of fuel and putting money into hospitals YOU KNOW the important day to day life matters anyway "history is a thing of the past"
Posts: 2,245
By: Fouga23 - 26th March 2012 at 11:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I often wonder why most ships are preserved docked and not on land. Seems to me, preserving a ship out of the water significantly reduced the preservation costs!
Posts: 9,780
By: David Burke - 26th March 2012 at 12:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Beech- most of the cost of fuel is tax -tax pays for hospitals !
Fouga -they are Speyer being a prime example! Obviously size becomes a factor!
Posts: 8,984
By: TonyT - 26th March 2012 at 12:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Americans Dragged a Uboat many miles inland, then lowered it down a well 4 stories into a specially prepared hall to preserve it for future generations...
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/u-505-submarine-to-resurface-june-5-2005.htm
http://www.cpasuccess.com/2012/03/no-room-for-big-ideas-make-room.html
WATCH THE FILM above
The UK raised a Uboat, displayed it rusting away on a dockside before sawning it into 4 sections........
Says it all really., if it isn't wooden, has more than one mast, then we are not interested in our Naval history......
Posts: 9,780
By: David Burke - 26th March 2012 at 12:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The U-boat wasn't raised by the U.K -it was raised because it was thought to contain valuables ! It didnt ! It was then brought from the foreign salvors to Birkenhead and is now on display at Woodside after being cut into sections to make it easier to move.
Ironically the Oberon class submarine that was preserved in the West Float (Birkenhead) moved to Barrow . That was built at Cammell Laird's - within sight of where a the German U-boat is now preserved ! You really couldnt write it!