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By: - 4th November 2010 at 22:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi,
Have you tried obtaining a copy of the 'loss card' for this aircraft from Hendon, sometimes it gives details of the bomb load carried.
By: - 4th November 2010 at 23:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi there. The bomb load for ME846 was 1 x 4,000 cookie and 16 x 500 HEs.
The other 619 Sqn losses are as follows;
ED859; 1 x 1,000 and 16 x 500 HEs.
LL808; 1 x 4,000 cookie, 1 x 1,000 and 14 x 500 HEs.
LL977; Same as LL808.
ND986; 1 x 4,000 cookie and 16 x 500 HEs.
NE151; 1 x 4,000 cookie, 1 x 1,000 and 14 X 500 HEs.
The smaller bomb load of ED859 was probably due to accrued flying hours being much greater than the other aircraft.
Regards,
Doug.
By: - 4th November 2010 at 23:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thats fascinating info. I would imagine those "COOKIES" did some damage!! :eek:
By: - 4th November 2010 at 23:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Many thanks Doug, that has been extremely helpful - might I ask the source? :)
Merlin - the information was missing from the card; thanks for the input
Regards
TO23
By: - 4th November 2010 at 23:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thats fascinating info. I would imagine those "COOKIES" did some damage!! :eek:
They certainly did, but not only to the targets. They had an unreliable fusing system, which probably accounted for a number of our missing Lancasters.
Doug.
By: - 5th November 2010 at 00:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Many thanks Doug, that has been extremely helpful - might I ask the source? :)Regards
TO23
Not sure of the source. May have been from the Loss Cards, the Squadron ORB or 5 Group ORB. My research was a long time ago.
Doug.
By: - 5th November 2010 at 08:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thank you for the additional update Doug - the details have been forwarded on to the family members plus some researchers in Belgium. :)
By: - 5th November 2010 at 11:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Prompted by the onward despatch of your information Doug we have now been copied with similar information via a communication from A.H.B. (RAF), which confirms data that you provided for ME846.
Once again thank you for your input. :)
By: - 5th November 2010 at 16:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Glad to have been of service, TO23.
Are the Belgian researchers counting bombs at the crash site?
Doug.
By: - 5th November 2010 at 16:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
More a case of trying to anticipate and plan for what might be involved in any future investigation at a possible location; it is also connected to this recent enquiry http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=104366&highlight=Aircraft+Part
By: - 6th April 2011 at 15:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Some further questions
Sorry for the slight delay in following this up, but I have a couple of other questions pertaining to this enquiry from last autumn.
Is anyone aware if there are figures / data available for typical crater sizes caused by different sizes of bomb e.g. a 4,000lb Cookie, or does it depend on ground conditions, height of bombing etc?
Also can anyone help provide the bomb load for a 76 Squadron Halifax DK170 (MP-C) lost on the night of 11 – 12 June 1943 in Bladel woods northern Belgium on a raid to Dusseldorf?
This second question is to help cross referencing a second crash site close to the possible location of the 619 Squadron Lancaster ME846.
By: - 7th April 2011 at 08:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'll bump this thread the one time as any feedback, thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated - especially about the crater size. Earlier this week I visited a crater location possibly associated with the ME846 loss!
I believe the Halifax mentioned above was operating out of Linton-on-Ouse and was lost to a night-fighter attack.
By: - 7th April 2011 at 09:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Regarding bomb crater sizes, I think you've probably answered your own question with the possible omission of a time factor to reflect the tendancy of these things to naturally decay. Having visited the Somme last year it's obvious that the shell craters and trenches I saw were mere shadows of what they once were.
However, more helpfully, perhaps a post on the RAF Commands Forum might bring a swifter response to your query about the Halifax's bombload? There are many people on there who have researched ORBs etc and may have the details you need.
http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?1-Main-Category
Good luck and don't get blown up - we'd miss the free cuppa at the aeroboots!
By: - 7th April 2011 at 11:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks AM - your suggestions are noted.
I've emailed 'off-board' you with a part i.d. request!
Me thinks that free teas might be in order in June !! :)
By: - 7th April 2011 at 16:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Howard,
My first thought on viewing the item is that it is part of a portable oxygen set.
I've uploaded the photos in case forum members have other suggestions.
If it is as I suggest, it's not going to help you distinguish between a Halifax and a Lancaster crash site because they would both have carried these sets.
By: - 7th April 2011 at 17:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks for posting the photos and the suggestion tallies with views held by well respected researchers in Belgium; we also appreciate the commonality of such parts.
The ME846 loss is relatively well documented in Belgium due to a large number of windows being blown in at the reported time of the night-fighter intercept, plus reports from the surviving crew members. It is suspected that this level of damage was due to the Cookie exploding.
The idea behind trying to ascertain the Halifax bomb load, is to try and estimate what size of crater might have been caused when that aircraft was lost; we suspect that the aircraft was outbound but we’re not 100% certain of that either!
Footnote: Just in case this item about a part was missed from the other thread I've re-quoted it -
"It comes from an ongoing research project that I’m assisting with and concerns what is believed to be an aircraft related item that has just been found. It is a metal plate that appears to be riveted / attached to canvass webbing of some form and carries the number (or partial number) NM 188. Is this aircraft related?"
Posts: 7,742
By: TwinOtter23 - 4th November 2010 at 18:46
Can anyone suggest some alternative information sources that would enable you to get an insight into the possible bomb load (types of bomb) carried on a specific Op in June 1944, by an individual Squadron or ideally an individual aircraft?
This relates to a 619 Squadron Lancaster I, ME846 that was lost on the night of June 21/22, 1944 as part of the Wesseling Raid, when the Squadron lost 6 aircraft out of the 16 sent on the Op.
The Squadron Orb has already been checked without success; DORIS has been contacted – any other suggestions for this specific type of information would be greatly appreciated by the surviving family members of this crew. :)