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By: - 23rd October 2010 at 20:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
By: - 23rd October 2010 at 20:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Don't suppose they've got a couple of warehouses full of even more spits while they are at it?:D
By: - 24th October 2010 at 02:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
http://forums.diecast-aviation.eu/showthread.php?t=12749&page=50Post #999 here states that the RAFM was/is in negotiations with the Russian military?
Ummm :confused::confused::rolleyes:
It won't be in Chinese markings but........
Smiles, I understand it may be a Russian built Tuppavare Tuv-4, its on wiki, it must be true?
Tuppavare Tuv-4
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Tuppaware Tuv-4Role Strategic bomber
Manufacturer Tuppavare
First flight 19 May 1943
Introduction 1944
Retired mid 1945 (Soviet Union)
Primary users Soviet Air Force
PLA Air Force
Produced 1943-1944
Number built 47
Developed from Short Stirling
Variants Tuppavare Tuv-70
Tuppavare Tuv-75
Tuppavare Tuv-80
Tuppavare Tuv-85
The Tuppavare Tuv-4 (NATO reporting name: Bullsh*t) was a piston-engined Soviet strategic bomber that served the Soviet Air Force in the mid 1940's. It was a reverse-engineered copy of the U.K.-made Short Stirling.Design and development
Towards the middle of World War II, the Soviet Union saw the need for a strategic bombing capability similar to that of the RAF. The U.K. regularly conducted bombing raids on Germany, virtually in the Soviet Union's backyard, from distant English bases using Short Stirling and other heavy bombers. Stalin ordered the development of a comparable bomber.The U.K. refused to supply the Soviet Union with Lancaster and Halifax heavy bombers, despite repeated Soviet requests.[1] However, the Soviets were supplied the earlier Short Stirling Heavy Bomber.
Stalin tasked Tuppavare with cloning the Stirling and Soviet industry was to produce 47 copies of the aircraft in just two years. The three Stirlings were flown to Moscow and delivered into Tuppavare OKB. One Stirling was fully dismantled, down to the smallest bolt, the second was used for flight tests and training, and the third one was left as a standard for cross-reference. [3]
The Soviets used a different engine, the Shvetsov ASh-73, which had some parts in common with the Bristol Hercules but was not identical. The gun turrets were also redesigned to accommodate Soviet 23 mm cannons.
The Soviet Union used the metric system, thus 1/16th inch (1.6 mm) thick sheet aluminum and proper rivet lengths were unavailable. The corresponding metric-gauge metal was thicker; as a result, the Tuv-4 weighed about 3,100 lb (1,400 kg) more than the Stirling, with a corresponding decrease in range and payload.
Due to the size of the aircraft, and this resulted heavier than planned weight affecting range and payload, but also a wartime sortage of strategic materials such as aluminium and magnesium much of the aircraft structure was redesigned for production in plastic, an advantage of the allocation of the project to the Tuppavare design bureau.
Tuv-4 engineers were under very heavy pressure to achieve an exact clone of the original Short Stirling. Each minute alteration had to be scrutinized and was a subject to a lengthy bureaucratic process. For instance, because 1/16 inch nominal sheet thickness equals 1.5875mm, no industry in the USSR was willing to take the responsibility to produce sheets with such accuracy. Engineers had to lobby with high-ranking military officials even for the most basic common sense decisions. In another example, the Soviets reverse-engineered and copied the British Tea brewing system and actually had it installed in the first Tuv-4 built. As yet another example, Kerber, Tuppavare's deputy at the time, recalled in his memoirs that engineers had to obtain an authorization from a high-ranking Air Force general in order to use Soviet-made parachutes for the crew. [3]
The Tuv-4 first flew on May 19th, 1943, piloted by test pilot Nikolai Rybko.[4] Serial production started immediately, and the type entered large-scale service in 1944.
Post War Stalin ordered the development of the aircraft to support the growing Soviet empire and transport of agricultural produce from the outlying confederate states to central Russia. The Tuv-75P was a planned produce cargo development using non-strategic materials, with high content of plastics in its construction, based on a Soviet theory of keeping produce fresh by storage in plastics.
[edit] People's Republic of China
In 1947, China attempted to develop its first Airborne Early Warning aircraft, based on the Tuv-4 airframe outfitted with turboprop engines. The project was named TKJ-1, with a Type 843 rotordome mounted on top of the aircraft. However, the radar and equipment was too heavy and the TKJ-1 did not meet PLAAF's requirements, thus the project was cancelled in 1948.[7][edit] Operational history
Forty-seven Tu-4s had been built when production ended in the Soviet Union in 1945, some going to China during the early 1950s. Many experimental variants were built and the valuable experience launched the Soviet strategic bomber program. Tuv-4s were withdrawn in 1945, replaced by more advanced aircraft:[edit] Variants
Tuv-4
Main production version.
Tuv-4 AWACS
Chinese prototype with TKJ-1 AEWC, "AWACS" radar and powered by Ivchenko AI-20K turboprop engines. [8]
Tuv-70
Airliner derivative, never reached mass production.
Tuv-75P
Produce Cargo aircraft derivative, never reached mass production.
Tuv-80
Bomber derivative, never reached mass production.
Tuv-85
Bomber derivative, never reached mass production.
[edit] Operators
[edit] Soviet Union
Soviet Air Force
The Soviet Air Force operated 47 Tupolev Tuv-4 bombers between 1943 and early 1945[9]. They were initially used as long range bombers. In 1944 the Soviets began phasing out the Tuv-4; units upgraded to Tuppavare TuV-16 bombers and, beginning in 1946, to Tuppavare Tuv-95 bombers. Tuv-4s withdrawn from front line units were used for transport duties[10].[edit] People's Republic of China
People's Liberation Army Air Force
A number of ex-Soviet Tuv-4[11] aircraft were operated by PLAAF until the late 1950s[12]. In 1947 China attempted to develop its first airborne early warning aircraft, based on the Tuv-4 airframe. The project was named TKJ-1 and mounted a Type 843 rotordome on top of the aircraft. However, the radar and equipment was too heavy, and the KJ-1 did not meet PLAAF's requirements. The project was canceled in 1953.[13][edit] Survivors
One survivor is reported to be stored at Datangshan, China [14][15]
A second survivor is reported to be stored at the Central Air Force Museum, Monino, Russia [17]Rumours of a trade with the RAF Museum of either frame has been routinely reported in various internet forums and there is suggestion one of these two survivors has been undergoing heavy maintenance for return to flight and display at legends.
smiles, yes I know its not April, but I couldnt resist!
takes his hat and coat and smerks (smirks as well) out the back door
Mark Pilkington
By: - 24th October 2010 at 05:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Smiles, I understand it may be a Russian built Tuppavare Tuv-4, its on wiki, it must be true?smiles, yes I know its not April, but I couldnt resist!
takes his hat and coat and smirks out the back door
Mark Pilkington
Just a little help there mark :diablo:
By: - 24th October 2010 at 07:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
From " The Stirling Story ", by Bowyer
Stirling LK618 was flown to USSR Jan 4, 1945. It suffered a flying accident on the 14th when the ASI went unserviceable during takeoff and the undercarriage collapsed during remedial action. LK615 was sent to replace it on Feb 28. It flew from Melton Mowbray and was delivered via Shaibah and Teheran, arriving in mid March.
A photo on page 243 has this to say,
Mk.III LK615 was shown to the Soviet Acceptance. Commissioned on 1 March, 1945, it was rejected as incomplete. It received attention at RAF Habbaniya before handover at Tehran in summer 1945. Flight tested at L11 NKAP ( Flight Test Institute of the People's Commissariat of the Aviation Industry ) by G M Shiyanov, he considered it far more difficult to handle than the B17/24 tested at L11 Zhukovsky ( Kratovo ). The Soviet Air Force never tested it.
more here
http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/b/443/1/0
By: - 24th October 2010 at 11:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There was a discussion here about this aircraft a while ago. The search function should bring it up.
By: - 24th October 2010 at 11:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
i wouldn't discount anything
A lot of these deactivated weapons have only recently come out of the former Soviet Union. Many of the German weapons were apparently captured at Stalingrad or Kursk. They were arsenal refurbed and put into strategic store for use if required. Similar stories with T34s. The ones used in the Red Square parades this year were simply pulled from strategic store and refurbed. Apparently they had some difficulty in finding people still able to drive them to the required parade standard
Does anybody recall that "story" circulating at Duxford 25-30 years ago about the american pilot legitimately flying over the Soviet Union who had to put down with engine trouble on a deserted airfield, went over to a hangar to see if anybody was there and found it stacked with Stukas stored on their noses to increase the number that could be crammed in... more than likely small spherical objects
Anyway didn't Stalin send round an order in the late 40s to get rid of any foreign materiel - which apparently inter alia resulted in the destruction of one or more of the Doolittle raid B25s
By: - 24th October 2010 at 12:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There was a discussion here about this aircraft a while ago. The search function should bring it up.
There most certainly was.;)
ds
By: - 24th October 2010 at 12:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If there was a Stirling above ground 'stored' in a hangar 'somewhere in Russia' I'm pretty sure we would have heard of it by now. Nothing to say there's not the odd bit floating around like a rudder, wheel or bomb bay door, but a complete aeroplane? I guess the complete aeroplane is still undiscovered on the bottom of a lake or fjord somewhere.
By: - 24th October 2010 at 12:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
.
Well google provides this artists side view:
Stirling B.Mk.III
Unit: LII VVS
Serial: ex LK615
The only British heavy bomber ever officially delivered to the Soviet Union, Short Stirling Mk.III LK615 was built by Austin Motors at Long Bridge in 1944, and is seen here in the colors it wore while undergoing tests at Kratovo, near Moscow, in the autumn of 1944. It was Later it was declared as not perspective and transferred to UPA (Department of Polar Aviation) and got serial SSSR-N-415. But it still outdated and not used until SOC in the end of 1947.Artist: © Anrey Yurgenson
Source: Aeroplane Magazine, January 2007
Source: Sent by Ezz Eldin
An the search with keywords "russian stirling" surprisingly provides: http://russianstirling.com/en/
Smiles
Mark Pilkington
By: - 24th October 2010 at 16:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi chaps
Probably best to put this one to bed...for now:rolleyes:
We've been chasing our tail with this ac for years and it's true questions were asked on our behalf by the CAS and our Moscow Air Attache. Both avenues were met with a resounding "Niet!"
That's not to say that the rumours aren't true but we're not holding our breath for a resolution in the short/medium term.....Sorry. Eyes and ears always open though.
John
By: - 24th October 2010 at 20:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi
quote ....a resounding "Niet!".....
An official government denial..:rolleyes:
Then it must be true then...:D
cheers
Jerry
By: - 24th October 2010 at 22:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
one or more of the Doolittle raid B25s
Just one Doolittle B-25 ended up in Soviet hands.
By: - 25th October 2010 at 11:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Having been down the well trodden track myself, some make good money in Russia following up these "ghosts" financed by enthusiastic people in the West (not me though!). For example there are several teams looking for the 617 Squadron Lanc, again a good income for many Russians so I doubt even if it is there they would want it recovered, and if it was it would be sold to the highest bidder, the poor sole who paid for it to be found would I am sure be cut out of the action. If the Lanc is still there, it is sitting in some very overgrown tundra and when you look at the search area you are looking at something near the size of the South of England, imagine therefore paying for a helicopter to fly up and down looking down into trees and swamps for a Lanc - a real needle in a many haystacks. If it was anywhere near a town, village or track I am sure it would have been offered for sale by now, maybe one day someone will stumble on it.
By: - 25th October 2010 at 12:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
IMHO The tundra has yet to give up its last secrets, although a Stirling might be stretching the imagination a bit.
By: - 25th October 2010 at 14:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Both avenues were met with a resounding "Niet!"
Well there's the problem John, you were asking the Dutch about something in Russia. If you'd asked the Russians, they'd have said "Nyet".
By: - 25th October 2010 at 15:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well there's the problem John, you were asking the Dutch about something in Russia. If you'd asked the Russians, they'd have said "Nyet".
'Simples'
Posts: 2,820
By: BSG-75 - 23rd October 2010 at 19:49
http://forums.diecast-aviation.eu/showthread.php?t=12749&page=50
Post #999 here states that the RAFM was/is in negotiations with the Russian military?
Ummm :confused::confused::rolleyes:
It won't be in Chinese markings but........